An attempt to calculate the multiplier of Super Saiyan forms

[ShadowBardock89]

Actually, there's nothing showing that Future Trunks had such a threshold either. In the manga, we're shown Ssj Future Trunks sparring, with some difficulty, against base form Future Gohan, who was indicated to not be of any significant degree different to Freeza Saga Goku in terms of power. If Gohan is around that level, and Ssj Trunks is physically exhausted in trying to spar with him, that'd suggest that Trunks' base, at that particular time, was far, far lower.

And no, in all honesty, there's no indication there has to be a benchmark level. In fact, the one major thing that is noted is that it requires intense rage that unlocks a tranquil heart, and Freeza outright states that it's because of that which led to Vegeta never transforming, not his strength.

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

One could technically argue that Goku (later Vegeta and Gohan) "surpassing their limits" was a coincidence, and isn't necessary for actually transforming.

I would argue that Future Gohan was stronger than Freeza Saga Super Saiyan Goku and had YEARS to handle his form, thus did not need to transform to spare with Trunks, who may have recently transformed. I also would like to comment that if that is all it took, why didn't Goku turn Super Saiyan when Tambourine killed Kuririn, who pretty much did the same thing as Freeza?

[Darkprince410]

Actually, there's nothing showing that Future Trunks had such a threshold either. In the manga, we're shown Ssj Future Trunks sparring, with some difficulty, against base form Future Gohan, who was indicated to not be of any significant degree different to Freeza Saga Goku in terms of power. If Gohan is around that level, and Ssj Trunks is physically exhausted in trying to spar with him, that'd suggest that Trunks' base, at that particular time, was far, far lower.

And no, in all honesty, there's no indication there has to be a benchmark level. In fact, the one major thing that is noted is that it requires intense rage that unlocks a tranquil heart, and Freeza outright states that it's because of that which led to Vegeta never transforming, not his strength.

Chapter: 319 (DBZ 125), P9.4-5, P10.4-7
Goku: “I’m a Saiyan who came from Earth to defeat you…A legendary warrior whose tranquil heart has been awakened through intense rage…Super Saiyan Son Goku!”
Freeza: “I…I knew it…It seems you really are a Super Saiyan…Fu-fuffuffuh…So your tranquil heart was awakened through intense rage, huh?...I see, so that’s why Vegeta could never become one, no matter how hard he tried…”

One could technically argue that Goku (later Vegeta and Gohan) "surpassing their limits" was a coincidence, and isn't necessary for actually transforming.

I would argue that Future Gohan was stronger than Freeza Saga Super Saiyan Goku and had YEARS to handle his form, thus did not need to transform to spare with Trunks, who may have recently transformed. I also would like to comment that if that is all it took, why didn't Goku turn Super Saiyan when Tambourine killed Kuririn, who pretty much did the same thing as Freeza?

Gohan, even if he was stronger than Freeza Saga Goku, wasn't by any drastic margin, so for him to do so well against Trunks would put Trunks' base considerably lower than Gohan's at the time. As for Goku's rage with Tambourine, it's not simply rage that's involved. It's rage that brings about a tranquil heart, which didn't happen with Goku back then. Vegeta became enraged several times between his introduction and when he finally was shown transforming, yet that rage didn't cause him to transform because it didn't bring about a tranquil heart.

[ShadowBardock89]

One could technically argue that Goku (later Vegeta and Gohan) "surpassing their limits" was a coincidence, and isn't necessary for actually transforming.

I would argue that Future Gohan was stronger than Freeza Saga Super Saiyan Goku and had YEARS to handle his form, thus did not need to transform to spare with Trunks, who may have recently transformed.

Gohan, even if he was stronger than Freeza Saga Goku, wasn't by any drastic margin, so for him to do so well against Trunks would put Trunks' base considerably lower than Gohan's at the time.

I'm not disagreeing with the underlined, but I have a hard time believing Super Saiyan Future Gohan was nearly the same level as Super Saiyan Goku when he fought Freeza. In fact, I would argue that Goku from his fight with Android 19 is close Super Saiyan Future Gohan's level, while Future Trunks was at Goku's level when Goku fought Freeza.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not disagreeing with the underlined, but I have a hard time believing Super Saiyan Future Gohan was nearly the same level as Super Saiyan Goku when he fought Freeza. In fact, I would argue that Goku from his fight with Android 19 is close Super Saiyan Future Gohan's level, while Future Trunks was at Goku's level when Goku fought Freeza.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P2.5
Context: Trunks commented on how Gohan’s gi made Bulma think of Goku.
Future Gohan: “I made it hoping it would make me as strong as dad was before he died… But I guess it’s not that easy.”

By Gohan's own admission, he didn't really think he was as strong as his father was back before he died, and given that Future Goku didn't have the advantage of having Trunks warning him about the arrival of #17 and #18 that his present counterpart would have had, he wouldn't be as strong as he was in the present timeline. Stronger than he was on Namek, sure, but he likely wouldn't have trained as heavily given that he had no foresight that a new villain was looming on the horizon.

[Hitiro]

By Gohan's own admission, he didn't really think he was as strong as his father was back before he died, and given that Future Goku didn't have the advantage of having Trunks warning him about the arrival of #17 and #18 that his present counterpart would have had, he wouldn't be as strong as he was in the present timeline. Stronger than he was on Namek, sure, but he likely wouldn't have trained as heavily given that he had no foresight that a new villain was looming on the horizon.

Going on from this. Even if we assume that for some reason Goku was massively stronger than he was in the present timeline, even so far as to say that before his heart virus he had surpassed 100% Freeza in his base form(Even though BoG and Chou suggest he hasn't surpassed 100% Freeza in his base form yet). Gohan holding off a SSJ would mean that SSJ is significantly weaker than Goku was on Namek. In other words:

Mirai(Future) Goku: 130,000,000
Mirai Gohan: 110,000,000
SSJ Mirai Trunks: 100,000,000
Mirai Trunks: 2,000,000

But we know that Gohan wasn't that strong otherwise he should have utterly destroyed the #17 and #18. We even get a line from #17 that he wasn't even outputting half of his power last time. When Trunks arrives in the present timeline he has gotten strong enough to at least fight them fairly. That would mean that Mirai Trunks would need a base battle power that is double Mirai Gohan's. It would also mean that by the time Trunks arrives to fight Freeza he should already be strong enough to beat him in Base form as he would be far stronger than the SSJ Goku who fought Mecha Freeza and would not have such difficulty taking on SSJ Goku in a little sparring match. Even holding back it was evident that SSJ Goku was the superior of the two. So that would mean within 1 year and 6 months of only training to obtain Shunkan Ido, Goku had become 100x stronger. So yeah, it is more likely that Mirai Trunks in in the tens of thousands or edging towards the 100's of thousands when he turned SSJ.

[ShadowBardock89]

By Gohan's own admission, he didn't really think he was as strong as his father was back before he died, and given that Future Goku didn't have the advantage of having Trunks warning him about the arrival of #17 and #18 that his present counterpart would have had, he wouldn't be as strong as he was in the present timeline. Stronger than he was on Namek, sure, but he likely wouldn't have trained as heavily given that he had no foresight that a new villain was looming on the horizon.

Going on from this. Even if we assume that for some reason Goku was massively stronger than he was in the present timeline, even so far as to say that before his heart virus he had surpassed 100% Freeza in his base form(Even though BoG and Chou suggest he hasn't surpassed 100% Freeza in his base form yet). Gohan holding off a SSJ would mean that SSJ is significantly weaker than Goku was on Namek. In other words:

Mirai(Future) Goku: 130,000,000
Mirai Gohan: 110,000,000
SSJ Mirai Trunks: 100,000,000
Mirai Trunks: 2,000,000

But we know that Gohan wasn't that strong otherwise he should have utterly destroyed the #17 and #18. We even get a line from #17 that he wasn't even outputting half of his power last time. When Trunks arrives in the present timeline he has gotten strong enough to at least fight them fairly. That would mean that Mirai Trunks would need a base battle power that is double Mirai Gohan's. It would also mean that by the time Trunks arrives to fight Freeza he should already be strong enough to beat him in Base form as he would be far stronger than the SSJ Goku who fought Mecha Freeza and would not have such difficulty taking on SSJ Goku in a little sparring match. Even holding back it was evident that SSJ Goku was the superior of the two. So that would mean within 1 year and 6 months of only training to obtain Shunkan Ido, Goku had become 100x stronger. So yeah, it is more likely that Mirai Trunks in in the tens of thousands or edging towards the 100's of thousands when he turned SSJ.

1) Isn't 18 & 17 stronger than Future 18 & Future 17? Didn't Trunks say that?
2) If Present Goku did that, didn't Future Goku do that as well?

[Hitiro]

1) Isn't 18 & 17 stronger than Future 18 & Future 17? Didn't Trunks say that?
2) If Present Goku did that, didn't Future Goku do that as well?

This is why I'm saying that it wouldn't really make sense given everything we know. Because:

1) As you say, #18 and #17 are stronger in the present timeline. For Trunks to fight the future ones fairly while Gohan only reached a half of #17's power would mean that Trunks is vastly stronger than the present timeline counterparts of the Z-Senshi prior to the 3 year training. Yet that isn't the case. Goku is clearly superior despite not doing any actual training for the year and a half he was missing. Goku himself stated that it took him the whole time he was there just to learn the technique. When Trunks returns are we supposed to believe that Goku and Vegeta had gained 100x their strength during the 3 year training gap to match his strength? It certainly is a possibility but then the inconsistency arises that Goku could already fight on par with Trunks, and then some, before 3 years of intense training. Then there is also the dialogue from Chou and BoG which state that base Saiyan's never surpassed Freeza post-Boo arc. So they couldn't have gotten even 50x stronger during this 3 year training.

2) It would be impossible for Goku to get 100x stronger by doing nothing but trying to learn the Shunkan Ido. That is why I said it.

[ShadowBardock89]

(sigh)... Fine. I thought I was on to something, but it seems what I came up with is bupkis.

[Tectorman]

1) Isn't 18 & 17 stronger than Future 18 & Future 17? Didn't Trunks say that?

That's what Trunks said, and it is the obvious takeaway from his statement. I would like to mention one theory out there that suggests differently.

Basically, it suggests that the Future Androids' tendency to play with their victims and give false hope gave Trunks a totally inaccurate feel for how strong they are.

Some numbers to illustrate that:

The first time Gohan faces the Androids.
SSJ Gohan: 30% of 17's power
17: uses 45% of his power
17 decimates Gohan, Gohan loses an arm and escapes (more likely, he is allowed to escape). Gohan recuperates and trains himself and Trunks. He gets significantly stronger, though he obviously has no way to tell how far he needs to go to beat the Androids.

The second time Gohan faces the Androids.
SSJ Gohan: 55% of 17's power (and stronger than he remembered 17 being the last time)
17: (after revealing that he wasn't even using half his power last time) 100%
Trunks: (unconscious and therefore unaware of any of this)
17 and 18 kill Gohan. Trunks grieves, trains, and gets stronger than Gohan was (and again, he has no way of knowing how far he has to go to beat the Androids).

Trunks, acting against his mother's advice, faces the Androids right before the Time Capsule is ready.
SSJ Trunks: 65% of 17's power (stronger than Gohan was)
17: (displaying the same sadistic cat-and-mouse tendency that he did with Gohan the first time, allows Trunks to think he has a shot) uses 75% of his own power
17 and 18 defeat Trunks, and Trunks ends up in a clinic. Trunks goes into the past, defeats Frieza, comes back, goes back again, and eventually faces the present-day 17 and 18. Present 17 and 18 have the same power as their future selves, but not the same personalities.

Trunks and the other Z Fighters face 17 and 18.
SSJ Trunks: 65% of 17's power
Present 17: (having no reason nor mindset to hold back or play games like his future counterpart) uses 100%
17 and 18 utterly decimate the Z Fighters in a way that Trunks had no way to foresee. He believes it to be because the Present-Day versions are stronger, and it never occurs to him to attribute it to the sadism of the Future versions.

...

It's not the Occam's Razor explanation, but I found it intriguing.

[Hitiro]

1) Isn't 18 & 17 stronger than Future 18 & Future 17? Didn't Trunks say that?

That's what Trunks said, and it is the obvious takeaway from his statement. I would like to mention one theory out there that suggests differently.

Basically, it suggests that the Future Androids' tendency to play with their victims and give false hope gave Trunks a totally inaccurate feel for how strong they are.

It kind of goes against Mirai #17's character to not bully Mirai Trunks. His actual statement says he can hold his own against one of them. It's just that there are two of them so he can't win. By this statement if #17 had power to spare then he would just knock up his power to a level where he could bully Mirai Trunks again. The fact that Mirai Trunks can fight at least one of them certainly means, if #17 is holding back, that he is not trying to bully him.

[Tectorman]

That's what Trunks said, and it is the obvious takeaway from his statement. I would like to mention one theory out there that suggests differently.

Basically, it suggests that the Future Androids' tendency to play with their victims and give false hope gave Trunks a totally inaccurate feel for how strong they are.

It kind of goes against Mirai #17's character to not bully Mirai Trunks. His actual statement says he can hold his own against one of them. It's just that there are two of them so he can't win. By this statement if #17 had power to spare then he would just knock up his power to a level where he could bully Mirai Trunks again. The fact that Mirai Trunks can fight at least one of them certainly means, if #17 is holding back, that he is not trying to bully him.

Wait a second. If SSJ Trunks can evenly fight one of the Androids at full power and their one advantage was that there were two of them, then wouldn't 17 and 18 be aware of that? And wouldn't they still be under that impression when they see Trunks again (after he comes back from the past the second time)?

Yet, when Trunks arrives that last time, 18 is asking for dibs to kill Trunks (i.e., she is certainly not under the impression that Trunks can stalemate her if she fights by herself). And 17's response is a lackadaisical "Sure, whatever" (i.e., neither of them think 18 needs help to easily dispose of Trunks). The first inkling either of them have that 18 might have needed help is when Trunks destroys her outright.

So if 18 and 17 were under the impression that one of them could easily dispose of Trunks the second time they saw him, then they had to have been under that same impression back when they fought him the first time (before he ever went into the past). Which would mean that whatever the reason they both fought him that time, it was not out of need. Which would mean that any impression that Trunks may have had then that he could match one of them alone is simply erroneous on his part.

As far as 17 and 18 holding back to allow Trunks to think he stood a chance, how is it out of character? We've seen 17 at least confirm that he once fought Gohan with much less than full power for nothing more than kicks. How would it be out of character for the two of them to do the same to Trunks? The decision to fight in tandem requires little more than 18 deciding she wanted to join in on the fun (not out of character for her) and 17 deciding "Sure, why not?" (not out of character for him).

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

If Future #17 could've said "I didn't even use my full power last time" to Trunks like he did to Gohan, just to strike fear into his heart before killing him (or so #17 thought he would), why wouldn't he? Perhaps because he couldn't?

[Darkprince410]

If Future #17 could've said "I didn't even use my full power last time" to Trunks like he did to Gohan, just to strike fear into his heart before killing him (or so #17 thought he would), why wouldn't he? Perhaps because he couldn't?

It's readily possible that he could have, but just chose not to. It's clear from the Gohan situation that #17 likes to play around and seemingly instill false hope, only to crush that hope later, so it's possible that he simply hadn't chosen to yet with Trunks. It's especially possible if they didn't think there'd be any other fighters left, leaving Trunks to be their last real "play toy", as it were.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

t's especially possible if they didn't think there'd be any other fighters left, leaving Trunks to be their last real "play toy", as it were.

They intended to kill Trunks for good this time, so then would be as good a time as ever to say it.

[Hitiro]

Wait a second. If SSJ Trunks can evenly fight one of the Androids at full power and their one advantage was that there were two of them, then wouldn't 17 and 18 be aware of that? And wouldn't they still be under that impression when they see Trunks again (after he comes back from the past the second time)?

Yet, when Trunks arrives that last time, 18 is asking for dibs to kill Trunks (i.e., she is certainly not under the impression that Trunks can stalemate her if she fights by herself). And 17's response is a lackadaisical "Sure, whatever" (i.e., neither of them think 18 needs help to easily dispose of Trunks). The first inkling either of them have that 18 might have needed help is when Trunks destroys her outright.

So if 18 and 17 were under the impression that one of them could easily dispose of Trunks the second time they saw him, then they had to have been under that same impression back when they fought him the first time (before he ever went into the past). Which would mean that whatever the reason they both fought him that time, it was not out of need. Which would mean that any impression that Trunks may have had then that he could match one of them alone is simply erroneous on his part.

As far as 17 and 18 holding back to allow Trunks to think he stood a chance, how is it out of character? We've seen 17 at least confirm that he once fought Gohan with much less than full power for nothing more than kicks. How would it be out of character for the two of them to do the same to Trunks? The decision to fight in tandem requires little more than 18 deciding she wanted to join in on the fun (not out of character for her) and 17 deciding "Sure, why not?" (not out of character for him).

Because all Trunks said was that he could fight fairly evenly with them? It doesn't mean that he could decisively end the battle straight away. He doesn't have enough of an advantage to do that. So Mirai #18 or Mirai #17 fighting by themselves for a bit would not do any harm. Piccolo could fight fairly evenly with #17 in the present timeline but that didn't mean Piccolo could end the battle straight away. It could be possible for Piccolo to defeat #17 before he starts to get fatigued but it isn't a certainty. And continuing with the Piccolo example even if Piccolo could find a way to strike the finishing blow the other android could intervene before the blow is struck. Then the two androids could just team up on Piccolo. Or, if Piccolo does manage to kill one he would be too exhausted to kill the other. So there is really nothing wrong with Trunks words.

[ekrolo2]

Do you guys think untrained SSJs (what Goku, Vegeta and FT are Pre-ROSAT) can in any way decrease their power output? Or is it always x50 base until they hit Grade 4?

[Tectorman]

Because all Trunks said was that he could fight fairly evenly with them? It doesn't mean that he could decisively end the battle straight away. He doesn't have enough of an advantage to do that. So Mirai #18 or Mirai #17 fighting by themselves for a bit would not do any harm. Piccolo could fight fairly evenly with #17 in the present timeline but that didn't mean Piccolo could end the battle straight away. It could be possible for Piccolo to defeat #17 before he starts to get fatigued but it isn't a certainty. And continuing with the Piccolo example even if Piccolo could find a way to strike the finishing blow the other android could intervene before the blow is struck. Then the two androids could just team up on Piccolo. Or, if Piccolo does manage to kill one he would be too exhausted to kill the other. So there is really nothing wrong with Trunks words.

Okay, you seem to be saying that Future 17 and Future 18 are initially even with SSJ Trunks as of just before he went into the past the first time. That their advantage only presents itself once the two if them fight Trunks together or after time passes and their infinite stamina can begin to play out. Otherwise, the beginning of the fight is potentially anyone's fight to win, by a lucky blow or something.

If that is the case, then shouldn't they be aware of this? Probably not before their first fight with Trunks, but after they've defeated him by teaming up, shouldn't they know that fighting him by themselves does not result in easily disposing of him?

On the other hand, the theory I'm espousing has Future 17 and Future 18 as individually significantly stronger than the SSJ Trunks they fought against before he went back in time the first time. And if this is the case, then encountering him again (which they do) should result in them thinking that they can easily dispose of him should they so desire (which is how I read that scene). Future 17 and 18 consider Trunks a mere toy to play with. Nothing is said about 18 needing to be careful of a lucky shot, or playing with him for a while until he wears himself out, or 18 playing with Trunks for a while before 17 jumps in. Honestly, to me, the scene read as though 18 expected the fight to take as long as "I blast him; he dies; done". You know, an event lasting maybe three panels (if she had fourth-wall awareness, that is). It doesn't read as though any manner of protracted fight is expected by either 18 or 17.

So the way I see it, the two views are mutually exclusive. If Future 17 and Future 18 are significantly stronger than SSJ Trunks as of right before his first trip to the past, then they can't be individually evenly matched with him. And vice versa. If Future 17 and Future 18 are individually only as strong as SSJ Trunks before his first time travel, then they would certainly be aware of it and not be of the view that Trunks is someone who can be easily disposed of at their whim.

So for 17 and 18 to think they're only individually evenly matched with Trunks and then to display the behavior that they display when they see him the next time (specifically, the attitude that 18 should be able to kill him outright with no expectations of the fight lasting longer than the one energy blast she shot at him), they'd have to, what? Be suffering from some sort of memory loss? Why? From where?

On the other hand, for 17 and 18 to be significantly stronger than Trunks and for Trunks to think otherwise, he would have to be misinformed. In a manner similar to how they have already misinformed another fighter already.

Spontaneous memory loss or a mere continuation of behavior we've already seen them exhibit.

Or I'd have to ask you to explain specifically what it is about the scene where Trunks faces them the second time (where there's no mention of 18 needing help, where there's no iota of recognition for Trunks's ability to match even one of them, where nothing in either of their demeanors seems to suggest any expectation that 18's fight with Trunks will last longer than the time it takes for her to boredly go through the motions of the one attack it'll take for her to kill him outright) that suggests that they have any recognition that he could fight evenly with one of them in their previous fight. Because I don't see it.

If Future #17 could've said "I didn't even use my full power last time" to Trunks like he did to Gohan, just to strike fear into his heart before killing him (or so #17 thought he would), why wouldn't he? Perhaps because he couldn't?

Oh, I entirely agree that 17's lack of comment about using less than his full power in their last fight was due to his not being able to make such a comment. Because he never had the time.

In between Trunks blowing up 18 and him rushing at 17, 17 had only enough time to express his disbelief that Trunks could have killed her. After that, Trunks declared her death to be for his friends and 17's death to be for Gohan. At which point, he rushed 17, 17 had enough time to sink into what he thought would be an effective defensive stance, then the next thing you know "It's raining men, Hallelujah".

You're exactly right. 17 never made any sort of comment that he'd been holding back the last time he fought Trunks. And I agree that he didn't because he couldn't. Not because it wouldn't have been a true statement, but simply because in this case, Talking Was Not a Free Action.

[Hitiro]

Okay, you seem to be saying that Future 17 and Future 18 are initially even with SSJ Trunks as of just before he went into the past the first time. That their advantage only presents itself once the two if them fight Trunks together or after time passes and their infinite stamina can begin to play out. Otherwise, the beginning of the fight is potentially anyone's fight to win, by a lucky blow or something.

If that is the case, then shouldn't they be aware of this? Probably not before their first fight with Trunks, but after they've defeated him by teaming up, shouldn't they know that fighting him by themselves does not result in easily disposing of him?

Actually Trunks' first comment on the Androids was that they were monsters and that he didn't stand a chance. Only after he returns to the past we get him saying he can fight them fairly well. We know to charge for a round trip takes about 6 months. So in all eventuality Trunks had gotten stronger in those 6 months. It would also explain why after he arrives in the past he isn't horribly dwarfed by the other SSJ's because if he went to the past the first time being weaker than Goku and then returned at the same strength he was at during his first time jump then he would be a horribly insignificant character by the SSJ standards.

But in answer to your question about why shouldn't they know that fighting him by themselves does not result in easily disposing of him. They do know. You yourself said they like to have fun and toy with people. What is the fun in both of them ganging up on him when they are already superior. We can say that Piccolo and #17 are even in strength but #17 has the advantage that he never gets tired. And we saw this during the fight. It is the same with SSJ Vegeta trying to fight #18 too. Piccolo noted that the more the fight dragged out the more noticeable the difference was because Vegeta was getting tired while #18 wasn't.

Also, going back to the #17 and Piccolo fight. #17 had noticed that Piccolo really was his equal during the fight a short way through it. At no point did he ask for someone else to help. He was enjoying the fight despite the fact that Piccolo could actually do something against him. So in the same vain why would Mirai #17 or Mirai #18 ask for help if they were fairly even with SSJ Trunks?

On the other hand, the theory I'm espousing has Future 17 and Future 18 as individually significantly stronger than the SSJ Trunks they fought against before he went back in time the first time. And if this is the case, then encountering him again (which they do) should result in them thinking that they can easily dispose of him should they so desire (which is how I read that scene). Future 17 and 18 consider Trunks a mere toy to play with. Nothing is said about 18 needing to be careful of a lucky shot, or playing with him for a while until he wears himself out, or 18 playing with Trunks for a while before 17 jumps in. Honestly, to me, the scene read as though 18 expected the fight to take as long as "I blast him; he dies; done". You know, an event lasting maybe three panels (if she had fourth-wall awareness, that is). It doesn't read as though any manner of protracted fight is expected by either 18 or 17.

Nobody makes that observation about Piccolo despite the vast power up yet we saw that it could have been possible for Piccolo to beat #17. I would also like to point out that at this time why would they ever say something about #18 needing to be careful of a lucky shot when they already know about that from the previous fight? They can't know that his strength had increased when they meet the last time he died.

[Tectorman]

But in answer to your question about why shouldn't they know that fighting him by themselves does not result in easily disposing of him. They do know. You yourself said they like to have fun and toy with people. What is the fun in both of them ganging up on him when they are already superior.

A change in pace. The most recent fight prior to Trunks's first fight with them appeared to be solely Future 17 versus Future Gohan, and based on their dialogue, the fight before that was also just Gohan versus 17. The last time we can assume that Future 18 got to have any fun fighting against anyone besides a random mook human was years ago when the Z Fighters were killed. We've seen them act out when they're bored and not having fun. We've seen that, sadistic though he is, Future 17 does at least accommodate his sister, even to the extent of sacrificing his own fun (when Trunks comes back the last time, 17 laments the loss of their last playtoy, but is perfectly fine with 18 killing him off for good; i.e., he will accommodate her at his own expense). So the big mysterious reason why Future 17 would gang up on Trunks with his sister can very easily be "She wanted to join in, 17 was fine with it".

We can say that Piccolo and #17 are even in strength but #17 has the advantage that he never gets tired. And we saw this during the fight. It is the same with SSJ Vegeta trying to fight #18 too. Piccolo noted that the more the fight dragged out the more noticeable the difference was because Vegeta was getting tired while #18 wasn't.

And as I said, that's not how I read the scene where Trunks faces them for the second time. There's no expectation of a dragged out fight on 17 or 18's part. Her demeanor is that she expects this to be a "Bang! Dead!" affair. Taking longer to say than to do. She doesn't expect her superiority to eventually manifest itself as the fight dragged on, she thought it was already there from the word "go".

Also, going back to the #17 and Piccolo fight. #17 had noticed that Piccolo really was his equal during the fight a short way through it. At no point did he ask for someone else to help. He was enjoying the fight despite the fact that Piccolo could actually do something against him. So in the same vain why would Mirai #17 or Mirai #18 ask for help if they were fairly even with SSJ Trunks?

Personality-wise, Future 17 is not Present 17. Present 17 appeared to have some respect for the code of the warrior, while we never have an indication that that even registers for Future 17. So, Present 17 choosing to test his mettle in an honest fight has nothing to do with Future 17 deciding to lower himself to match the power of a playtoy to instill a false sense of hope in said playtoy, only to then allow his sister to join in for reasons that have more to do with sadism and staving off boredom and less (well, nothing at all) to do with necessity or any pursuit of an honest fight.

Nobody makes that observation about Piccolo despite the vast power up yet we saw that it could have been possible for Piccolo to beat #17. I would also like to point out that at this time why would they ever say something about #18 needing to be careful of a lucky shot when they already know about that from the previous fight? They can't know that his strength had increased when they meet the last time he died.

When in the history of this entire franchise have we ever had any character say "Aha, I know you and I to be evenly matched, so of course, I will easily dispose of you"?

Because that's what you're suggesting with this notion that Future 17 and 18 were even with Trunks then (the first fight), but 18 expects to one-shot the punk in their last fight.

"I believe myself to be stronger than you, ergo I can defeat you easily" is a thing we commonly see in this series. "I know myself to be stronger than you, ergo I can defeat you easily" is also a thing common in this series. "I know from the last time we fought that we're evenly matched, so now I'm going to immediately forget it and act like I already have the advantage" is something I've never seen in this series.

[TheMikado]

the multipliers are-

Super Saiyan = 50x base
Super Saiyan 2 = 100x base/2x Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan 3 = 400x base/4x Super Saiyan 2
Super Saiyan 4 = 4000x base/10x Super Saiyan 3

It's pretty much what the majority of the db fandom goes with and imho it's the best multipliers to work with, everything else just seems random and stupid :V

The SSJ4 power level is entirely false. As can be seen in Goku's battle between Babi. In SS3 he is below him in power but SSJ4 he is above. SSJ3 is 400Xbase while SSJ4 is SS1xGreat Ape Multiplier X10 meaning SSJ4 500Xbase.
If it was truly 10XSSJ3 then Goku would have completely overwhelmed Babi. Babi appears to have a power level of 450xGoku's base.