Question for japanese-learning Dragon Ball watchers

[Bansho64]

Does watching the series in Japanese after becoming fluent change everything? Lately I've been watching Dragon ball z with subtitles and I find myself wanting more and more to be able to watch it and understand it completely. To get the full experience.

[Vijay]

Its addictive, you see. If you love the Japanese version, you'll love the show "beyond" superficial level like say "hey, DBZ is a cool show. Green guys flyin & rock song playin."

Not tryin to be "elitist" in the slightest. You'll be able to appreciate more on the kind of effort/hard-work that was put into the show

Right frm its seiyuu's flawless VA, soulful insert songs & bgms.

In fact, its also the primary reason on why I started watchin Japanese shows/cartoons cuz felt...I dunno. Quality products I guess

[Pokewhiz7]

I am not a fluent Japanese speaker, but I do speak a foreign language (German) to a high enough level to be able to watch TV shows in that language. It's a slightly different experience than watching something in a language that you don't understand with subtitles, and in a way, I can sympathize with dub-watchers' argument about preferring to watch something in their own language. I feel like I can empathize with the characters better and get myself more involved in the show, mentally. I assume it is the same with watching the show once you speak Japanese.

[Mythros]

I'm not fluent, merely learning at the moment. However, I have noticed that as I progress deeper into my study of the language, my experience with the various animated shows in the franchise has begun to change. It opens up a wider perspective on the franchise, as subtitled translations can only ever make approximations of meaning; the nature of translation requires choices to be made at every step that give different shades of meaning from what another translator might give.

I was recently re-watching a scene during the transition from the Android to Cell arc where Piccolo confronts Imperfect Cell and we see the main villain really for the first time. My interest in the scene was seeing again how the use of sound design and lack of music adds tension to the scene. Then I noticed the dialogue. I was aware that Cell uses the plain 私 as his personal pronoun, even in Perfect form, which makes sense given he was designed to be a blank canvas for lego-genetics from various characters to be painted on. Except in this scene, the exchange goes like this (first speaker is Piccolo):
「な、何物だ、キサマ？なぜピッコロの名を知ってる？」
*various Norio grunts*「俺はお前の兄弟だ！！」

Cell is using the strongly masculine and tough-guy personal pronoun 俺, the same as most of the fighters do, presumably in order to make a strong first impression on Piccolo. He also refers to Piccolo with the (in this scenario) contemptuous お前, as a modern delinquent might do. I had never noticed it in that scene until that re-watch, and knowing the shades of difference that 俺 provides from the vanilla 私 really paints Cell in a different light in that scene. It makes it clear he has an objective through-line being developed in the sub-text, something which gets lost in the English language with only 'I' available for both pronouns.

[CashmanX]

I'm not fluent, merely learning at the moment. However, I have noticed that as I progress deeper into my study of the language, my experience with the various animated shows in the franchise has begun to change. It opens up a wider perspective on the franchise, as subtitled translations can only ever make approximations of meaning; the nature of translation requires choices to be made at every step that give different shades of meaning from what another translator might give.

I was recently re-watching a scene during the transition from the Android to Cell arc where Piccolo confronts Imperfect Cell and we see the main villain really for the first time. My interest in the scene was seeing again how the use of sound design and lack of music adds tension to the scene. Then I noticed the dialogue. I was aware that Cell uses the plain 私 as his personal pronoun, even in Perfect form, which makes sense given he was designed to be a blank canvas for lego-genetics from various characters to be painted on. Except in this scene, the exchange goes like this (first speaker is Piccolo):
「な、何物だ、キサマ？なぜピッコロの名を知ってる？」
*various Norio grunts*「俺はお前の兄弟だ！！」

Cell is using the strongly masculine and tough-guy personal pronoun 俺, the same as most of the fighters do, presumably in order to make a strong first impression on Piccolo. He also refers to Piccolo with the (in this scenario) contemptuous お前, as a modern delinquent might do. I had never noticed it in that scene until that re-watch, and knowing the shades of difference that 俺 provides from the vanilla 私 really paints Cell in a different light in that scene. It makes it clear he has an objective through-line being developed in the sub-text, something which gets lost in the English language with only 'I' available for both pronouns.

As another example for the OP, when Goku first transforms into a SSJ in the Namek arc, he drops his usual hickish "Ora" pronoun for "Ore" in order to signify the overflowing anger the form brings. Even more interesting, once Goku masters the form in the Cell arc, he starts using "Ora" in the form to show that he no longer experiences emotional strain when using it.

[Bansho64]

I'm not fluent, merely learning at the moment. However, I have noticed that as I progress deeper into my study of the language, my experience with the various animated shows in the franchise has begun to change. It opens up a wider perspective on the franchise, as subtitled translations can only ever make approximations of meaning; the nature of translation requires choices to be made at every step that give different shades of meaning from what another translator might give.

I was recently re-watching a scene during the transition from the Android to Cell arc where Piccolo confronts Imperfect Cell and we see the main villain really for the first time. My interest in the scene was seeing again how the use of sound design and lack of music adds tension to the scene. Then I noticed the dialogue. I was aware that Cell uses the plain 私 as his personal pronoun, even in Perfect form, which makes sense given he was designed to be a blank canvas for lego-genetics from various characters to be painted on. Except in this scene, the exchange goes like this (first speaker is Piccolo):
「な、何物だ、キサマ？なぜピッコロの名を知ってる？」
*various Norio grunts*「俺はお前の兄弟だ！！」

Cell is using the strongly masculine and tough-guy personal pronoun 俺, the same as most of the fighters do, presumably in order to make a strong first impression on Piccolo. He also refers to Piccolo with the (in this scenario) contemptuous お前, as a modern delinquent might do. I had never noticed it in that scene until that re-watch, and knowing the shades of difference that 俺 provides from the vanilla 私 really paints Cell in a different light in that scene. It makes it clear he has an objective through-line being developed in the sub-text, something which gets lost in the English language with only 'I' available for both pronouns.

Did th Funi translators just forget about these changes? Or even try to implement them in the dub? Or was it just something you couldn't translate to english. They could've atleast tried and changed the way Cell speaks.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Did th Funi translators just forget about these changes? Or even try to implement them in the dub? Or was it just something you couldn't translate to english. They could've atleast tried and changed the way Cell speaks.

It seems pretty hard to translate the distinction between 俺 and 私 into English. I'm not even sure how I would go about it. I guess you could try to make his speech more blunt to signify the drop in formality. But I'm not even sure what that entails.

[Bansho64]

Did th Funi translators just forget about these changes? Or even try to implement them in the dub? Or was it just something you couldn't translate to english. They could've atleast tried and changed the way Cell speaks.

It seems pretty hard to translate the distinction between 俺 and 私 into English. I'm not even sure how I would go about it. I guess you could try to make his speech more blunt to signify the drop in formality. But I'm not even sure what that entails.

True, that would be hard to translate. Japanese is such a different language from english. When you watch things in subtitles, it just seems like you're missing the whole experience even WITH the translations y'know?

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

True, that would be hard to translate. Japanese is such a different language from english. I wanna learn it so bad (not just for Dragon Ball). When I watch things in subtitles, it just seems like I'm missing the whole experience even WITH the translations.

Go ahead and learn it then

[DoomieDoomie911]

True, that would be hard to translate. Japanese is such a different language from english. I wanna learn it so bad (not just for Dragon Ball). When I watch things in subtitles, it just seems like I'm missing the whole experience even WITH the translations.

Go ahead and learn it then

If only it were that easy...

[DB1984]

I did learn a few Japanese words, like Mukashi Mukashi (A long, long time ago), Benjo (Bathroom), Saigo (Last), Kame (Turtle), and Hajimaru (Begin),

[Bansho64]

Its addictive, you see. If you love the Japanese version, you'll love the show "beyond" superficial level like say "hey, DBZ is a cool show. Green guys flyin & rock song playin."

Not tryin to be "elitist" in the slightest. You'll be able to appreciate more on the kind of effort/hard-work that was put into the show

Right frm its seiyuu's flawless VA, soulful insert songs & bgms.

In fact, its also the primary reason on why I started watchin Japanese shows/cartoons cuz felt...I dunno. Quality products I guess

Yep you're absolutely right. Seeing Dragon Ball with all its original bgms and insert songs gives you a much bigger appreciation for the work put into it.

[ABED]

On the Yu Yu Hakusho single DVD's, one of the special features was called "Yama's Notebook". It gave background on things in the show such things as the significance of characters names or Japanese history or folklore that might be relevant to an episode. I think such a special feature would've been great for any show, including DB.

[Mythros]

Curiously, there don't seem to have been replies from many watchers of Dragon Ball who are fluent in Japanese, given the title of this thread. Out of curiosity, other than the official translators for Kanzenshuu (Herms et al.), are there many members of the forum who are fluent? There are an awful lot of people who post on each new episode thread for Super claiming the episode was good/bad/mediocre before subtitles could possibly have been released. If they're forming opinions and pressing those opinions upon others despite not even understanding the dialogue they just watched, it seems a little silly.

Psst, Abed. Six seasons and a movie! We just have to believe hard enough!

[Bansho64]

Curiously, there don't seem to have been replies from many watchers of Dragon Ball who are fluent in Japanese, given the title of this thread. Out of curiosity, other than the official translators for Kanzenshuu (Herms et al.), are there many members of the forum who are fluent? There are an awful lot of people who post on each new episode thread for Super claiming the episode was good/bad/mediocre before subtitles could possibly have been released. If they're forming opinions and pressing those opinions upon others despite not even understanding the dialogue they just watched, it seems a little silly.

Psst, Abed. Six seasons and a movie! We just have to believe hard enough!

I would have expected some more people to respond to this thread. Eh, I guess not everyone has seen it.

[sailorspazz]

I wouldn't call myself fluent, since there's still plenty of Japanese I don't know, but Dragon Ball is mostly within my realm of comprehension (when watching raw Super episodes, I can understand somewhere around 90% of the dialogue, give or take depending on how complicated the discussion is). Being able to tell what characters are saying without having to rely on translations definitely gives you a greater understanding of things that aren't really translatable, such as the discussion earlier in the thread about pronouns, in addition to the varying levels of politeness/humbleness present in Japanese, and sentence endings like "wa", "zo,", etc. There are things like these that add another layer to the characters' personalities, and you need to have some understanding of the language to pick them out.

If you study the language to the point where you'd like to get into translation, you may also find yourself becoming a judge of other people's translations, for better or worse. You may listen to a line, see the translation, and think, "oh, that's a really interesting way to say that. I'll have to steal remember that later." Or you might cringe and go, "that doesn't really convey the intent of that line so well." Watching shitty speedsubs is definitely not recommended, as you'll spend the whole time screaming, "how the hell did they manage to fuck THAT up?!" There's a reason that translation is referred to as an art rather than a science, especially when the languages are as different as Japanese and English (And automatic machine translators manage to misunderstand things in a way that even most speedsubbers would be ashamed of,if they have any sense of shame). It requires skill to see the intent of a line and find a way to convey it that doesn't come across as too stiff/literal. There's a great responsibility behind it, since many people will be relying on/believing that your interpretation is valid and correct. You definitely need to have both skill and confidence.

[Bansho64]

I wouldn't call myself fluent, since there's still plenty of Japanese I don't know, but Dragon Ball is mostly within my realm of comprehension (when watching raw Super episodes, I can understand somewhere around 90% of the dialogue, give or take depending on how complicated the discussion is). Being able to tell what characters are saying without having to rely on translations definitely gives you a greater understanding of things that aren't really translatable, such as the discussion earlier in the thread about pronouns, in addition to the varying levels of politeness/humbleness present in Japanese, and sentence endings like "wa", "zo,", etc. There are things like these that add another layer to the characters' personalities, and you need to have some understanding of the language to pick them out.

If you study the language to the point where you'd like to get into translation, you may also find yourself becoming a judge of other people's translations, for better or worse. You may listen to a line, see the translation, and think, "oh, that's a really interesting way to say that. I'll have to steal remember that later." Or you might cringe and go, "that doesn't really convey the intent of that line so well." Watching shitty speedsubs is definitely not recommended, as you'll spend the whole time screaming, "how the hell did they manage to fuck THAT up?!" There's a reason that translation is referred to as an art rather than a science, especially when the languages are as different as Japanese and English (And automatic machine translators manage to misunderstand things in a way that even most speedsubbers would be ashamed of,if they have any sense of shame). It requires skill to see the intent of a line and find a way to convey it that doesn't come across as too stiff/literal. There's a great responsibility behind it, since many people will be relying on/believing that your interpretation is valid and correct. You definitely need to have both skill and confidence.

That's definitely one of the reasons watching subs feel awkward. Even with subs, you can't fully understand what they're saying and trying to convey. Words can seem out of place for a character at points. Japanese is definitely a very different language from english.

[Mythros]

Being able to tell what characters are saying without having to rely on translations definitely gives you a greater understanding of things that aren't really translatable, such as the discussion earlier in the thread about pronouns, in addition to the varying levels of politeness/humbleness present in Japanese, and sentence endings like "wa", "zo,", etc. There are things like these that add another layer to the characters' personalities

Yeah, those subtle (to us gaijin, not a native speaker) aspects really make each character come alive in how they become differentiated from one another in speech alone. Goku eliding diphthongs into えぇ sounds, like だぞう --> だぜぇ makes him come off simultaneously uneducated and charming. One of the funnier moments of Episode 29 of Super this week was Goku repeating Beerus's 「どうだろう？」to Champa and then, after a beat, adding 「…ですか。」, trying to sweet-talk someone above his station. He never uses 丁寧語 (standard polite form), so the effect came off as suitably humorous. Bulma tries to evoke femininity by ending sentences in わ, Vegeta refers to nearly everyone contemptuously... basically every character except Future Trunks has speech quirks outside of the Tokyo broadcast dialect.

You may listen to a line, see the translation, and think, "oh, that's a really interesting way to say that. I'll have to steal remember that later." Or you might cringe and go, "that doesn't really convey the intent of that line so well." Watching shitty speedsubs is definitely not recommended, as you'll spend the whole time screaming, "how the hell did they manage to fuck THAT up?!"

Isn't that half the fun of watching speedsubs? You get to watch and trash-talk while feeling mildly superior to someone else in Japanese for once. So to me, when they screw up badly, well it's all just according to Keikaku*.


*T/N: Keikaku means plan.

[Bansho64]

Being able to tell what characters are saying without having to rely on translations definitely gives you a greater understanding of things that aren't really translatable, such as the discussion earlier in the thread about pronouns, in addition to the varying levels of politeness/humbleness present in Japanese, and sentence endings like "wa", "zo,", etc. There are things like these that add another layer to the characters' personalities

Yeah, those subtle (to us gaijin, not a native speaker) aspects really make each character come alive in how they become differentiated from one another in speech alone. Goku eliding diphthongs into えぇ sounds, like だぞう --> だぜぇ makes him come off simultaneously uneducated and charming. One of the funnier moments of Episode 29 of Super this week was Goku repeating Beerus's 「どうだろう？」to Champa and then, after a beat, adding 「…ですか。」, trying to sweet-talk someone above his station. He never uses 丁寧語 (standard polite form), so the effect came off as suitably humorous. Bulma tries to evoke femininity by ending sentences in わ, Vegeta refers to nearly everyone contemptuously... basically every character except Future Trunks has speech quirks outside of the Tokyo broadcast dialect.

You may listen to a line, see the translation, and think, "oh, that's a really interesting way to say that. I'll have to steal remember that later." Or you might cringe and go, "that doesn't really convey the intent of that line so well." Watching shitty speedsubs is definitely not recommended, as you'll spend the whole time screaming, "how the hell did they manage to fuck THAT up?!"

Isn't that half the fun of watching speedsubs? You get to watch and trash-talk while feeling mildly superior to someone else in Japanese for once. So to me, when they screw up badly, well it's all just according to Keikaku*.


*T/N: Keikaku means plan.

I'm not defending Anime Labs or any other groups that make speed subs but are they really that bad?

[DoomieDoomie911]

I'm not defending Anime Labs or any other groups that make speed subs but are they really that bad?

Yes, they're very bad and inaccurate. They spread a lot of misinformation and start lots of rumors.