Correlation between purchasing/owning & increased knowledge

[VegettoEX]

So as the self-appointed Old Man Ambassador to the Entire Dragon Ball Online Community, even I occasionally run a search to see what other websites/podcasts/channels/whatever exist. We operate in a bubble, but we're not ignorant.

But before I get into that...

One of the biggest questions we get here at Kanzenshuu from the general outside audience is "which dub is this?" with a link to (insert whatever scene here). Invariably it will be something FUNimation's done, but the person asking the question ranges from surprised to incredulous at the implication that FUNimation is behind it. When I/we poke deeper, in almost every case, the person asking the question doesn't actually own the series: they exclusively watch it via pirated streaming/download sites.

I mean... if you own it, you know what's on it, and you can just click around and see what's on it. That makes sense. If you own the orange bricks, there's a greater-than-zero chance that when you popped it in, you either saw a languages/setup menu, or when you heard something start playing that you didn't recognize or even like, you fiddled around to see why that was.

So here's where I tie in back around:

I recently saw my name tagged for a reason I couldn't figure out, and saw there was a podcast some dudes were doing. OK, sure. Let me tune in. Once I got past the "What's Dr. Slump?" comment, one of the hosts went on a side note about how they were watching it in English but it had the Japanese music so it couldn't have been FUNimation.

There are a few levels here. One is my OWN response of silently screaming in frustration and disbelief. Once I got over myself, that's when the wheels started turning.

They were pirating the series. If they owned it, they would have known that the orange bricks and the Blu-rays come with three audio tracks (FUNimation dub with original JP music, FUNimation dub with replacement music, and original JP track).

I see this in the strength debate area as well, with people who claim to know exactly what the Daizenshuu say... but when you dig deeper, it turns out EVERYTHING is a Daizenshuu to them (things like the "Super Exciting Guide" books, which they don't see a distinction between... which, OK fair enough, a guide book is a guide book...). There's another deeper level here because unless you know Japanese you're going to rely on second-hand information anyway, but still: I find it hard to consider yourself an expert in the material if you don't own the book, nevermind have the capacity to read it.

So look, I know I'm a jerk here. I hold all discussions to an impossible level. I've been doing this too long, know too much, and have the benefit of surrounding myself with people smarter than myself.

Is the point I'm getting at worth anything, though? What do you think about that: is there a direct correlation between putting in the effort to own something and therefore actually knowing more about it? Is it possible to pirate everything and still be an actual expert?

Please justify my existence and credit card bill.

[TheGreatness25]

Unfortunately, on can pirate everything and still be an "expert" if researched properly. I own way too much merchandise, I own a ridiculous amount of Dragon Ball related content. When it comes to following along the series, one does not need to own anything. I don't see how owning the series would give an advantage to someone than watching it online for free. The story is the story.

I also own all of the Daizenshuus and the GT Perfect Files and even all of the original Japanese manga. That does not mean that I am an expert in that content because I have no idea what any of it says. I must, therefore, rely on second-hand sources. The advantage that I do get, though, is that I know what it looks like, I know what pictures are in it, and I know how big the book is. However, all of those things are easy to research. So is the issue with the audio tracks, that's easy to research.


You might be right about those guys pirating the content. However, FUNimation's channel has DB/Z/GT up with the American dub and original Japanese music. Those guys might have been using that, but you said they were under the impression that FUNimation couldn't possibly be behind it. Hulu also has the majority of all three series up with the same audio option. Basically, I'm saying that there are many people exposed to that who are not necessarily pirating anything.

[Kamiccolo9]

Mike, you are completely right, and I'll happily give a detailed analogy as soon as I can get to something to type on besides my phone. This issue comes up in academia all the time, especially in history, and I have numerous firsthand examples of this affecting people.

Great topic.

[MrWalnut4]

I have to agree with you Mike. It does seem that a vast majority of the people completely misinformed have not sunk time or money into the series. I would also add a second degree and say that these people seem to be mostly children or teenagers. It would explain why the majority of them rely on pirated material and are so misinformed on the series. Just my two cents.

[Quebaz]

You might be right about those guys pirating the content. However, FUNimation's channel has DB/Z/GT up with the American dub and original Japanese music. Those guys might have been using that, but you said they were under the impression that FUNimation couldn't possibly be behind it. Hulu also has the majority of all three series up with the same audio option. Basically, I'm saying that there are many people exposed to that who are not necessarily pirating anything.

But if they were watching it from Funimation's channel why would they question it being from Funimation in the first place, surely they'd understand that maybe "Oh cool, they have the japanese music avaliable" and not jump into any other conclusion.

Heck, I was watching a video of the Goku and Majin Vegeta fight this week and there were tons of people asking "Why does this have Kai's music, have they dubbed Buu Kai already?", I mean, okay sure, It's Youtube, but I actually think a big part of the Youtube community just doesn't know that Funi+JP music is a thing because Funi+Falcouner is just so out there on the web at this point and it's one of those cases that you don't need even to specify you want the English dub because the top 1000 search results will be just that (and let's not forget that there was a point were the whole series was avaliable on Youtube/shady anime streaming sites that way).

[Wezenheim]

This is a great topic, and I also agree with you. I think there is something to actually owning the series.

Hell, dissecting everything wrong (and sometimes right!) with North American Dragon Ball products is practically an art form on its own. You'd never be able to deepen your understanding on stuff like that if you didn't actually have it in front of you.

I'd have to think about a better answer too, because I'll admit that one wasn't super fantastic. Basically, I do think that the time and money invested in these products isn't a waste though, if it's knowledge and understanding that you crave.

[Kamiccolo9]

Not to mention our current Super section, which holds discussions held between people who almost universally pirate the show.

[Kunzait_83]

This seems like one of the pitfalls of there simply being too damn many different official English dubs of the series floating around over the years. Between the original Saban/Ocean dub, the in-house FUNi dub with or without Faulconer, the later Ocean dub, and now Kai... its honestly more than understandable for an average layman who hasn't followed any of this absurdly convoluted crap for all these years to feel lost and confused regarding which version is which, especially if they're just jumping into a random pirate download of some DVD rips.

From what you're describing - some casual-sounding fans grabbing a torrent of the series and being utterly lost by what version they were watching due to the music being so different - it sounds like these are some kids who mainly just casually watched one of the two main English versions that aired on TV over the years - either the old FUNi DBZ dub with Faulconer music on Cartoon Network, or the more recent dub of Kai with Yamamoto's music - and grabbed a torrent that was ripped either from the orange bricks, the more recent blu rays, or possibly even the Dragon Boxes.

If we disregard Kai and the original singles, all of the more recent DVD releases of the Dragon Ball Z (from 2007 and onward) have had the Kikuchi score as the default music. The Faulconer score has had a presence on all the non-Dragon Box releases, but you have to specifically go into the setup menu looking for it: once more implying some measure of familiarity for exactly what it is you're looking for, which by definition would not make you a "casual" (that there's now such a thing as a "hardcore dub fan" is almost hilarious in itself). By contrast, the Kikuchi score has never really seen the light of day on regular TV airings (original DB notwithstanding obviously). Not paired with DBZ obviously, which is really the only series - apart from Kai perhaps - that most "casuals" are going to know anyways. It is exclusively the domain of home releases.

I think for purposes of this sort of discussion (and most discussions of this nature in general) we'd have to define "casual" as having just watched whatever version of the series has aired on TV over the last 17/18-ish years or so, and not really looking into or knowing anything more about any other versions of the series that are out there. In that scenario, Kikuchi is NOT something that most casual DBZ/Kai TV watchers are going to have had exposure to: not without having expressly purchased any of the home releases from the Orange Bricks and onward.

Depending on the age of the people in question here, its very likely that they've only ever seen either the Cartoon Network airings of DBZ or the Nickelodeon (or whatever channel) airings of Kai. Odds are they've never owned a home release before, and have thus never been exposed to Kikuchi: at least not paired with DBZ rather than DB anyway. And again if we're going SUPER casual, then they've probably not even seen original DB at all anyway and thus have utterly NO exposure to Kikuchi whatsoever.

If all they have burned into their brain is DBZ with Faulconer or Kai with Yamamoto, then I can probably see why hearing Kikuchi (even with the English dub voices) might make them think that they were watching just some other totally different version not affiliated with what they know from TV.

That's really what it comes down to honestly: being so stupidly/ridiculously casual to the point of not following any of the home releases or any of the various incarnations that the series has gone through over the years (including even its original Japanese version) and only knowing it as whatever iteration of it you'd seen on TV however many years ago (likely in-house FUNi with Faulconer or Kai). In that context, diving into pretty much ANY modern home release of DBZ without a helmet is gonna provide you with SOME measure of culture shock and confusion.

In short: casuals gonna casual.

[Wezenheim]

Not to mention our current Super section, which holds discussions held between people who almost universally pirate the show.

That is a great comparison, actually. A lot of misinformation floats around that way (from pirating that is).

[rey2187]

I think there's definately some truth to your analysis. If you're willing to invest the time and money to go out and legally purchase a product, it's likely you're already invested in that product and will then likely spend sometime reviewing it after you've purchased it, thereby educating yourself more about it. It makes sense to me that if you're not willing to be financially invested in a product, then you're likely to not be as well informed compared to someone who is.

As an aside, your example with the orange bricks did cause me to reconsider my opinion of those fans who buy them because they prefer the widescreen format and/or the American broadcast music. Because despite my feelings about fans who enjoy those aspects of that release, at least they are buying an official product and not resorting to pirating, thereby putting money back into the franchise. That at least I can appreciate, even if I can appreciate the product itself.

[Kuririn Fan]

I live in a poor shitty little country so I'm pretty much bound to pirate. I'm not proud of it, but thats the only way and i "own" the whole series this way. I've also seen it with subs, so i immediately know more that the regular dub fan, but i also like to do a lot of research and find out different things. So i think you can definitely be a pirate and an expert.

Spoiler:

I hope i wont be banned for saying this.

[JulieYBM]

It all boils down to the hate of 'learning'. 'Learning' has such a stigma because of how it is associated with 'school' (or I assume, US public education) that seeking out information and bettering ourselves through it has spilled over into how we tackle our interests and hobbies. Information, accuracy, authority and examining has become second-class in a world that would much rather place stock in its own infallibleness. Could this also tie back to how we raise our young to have more self-esteem than they have actual ability to back up? I think so. This is the same sort of nonsense we see in discussing the modern animation. "It's 2016, everything is supposed to be better!" Welcome to the real world, where nothing ever gets 'better' because stuff isn't simple.

People are terrible and the internet is the perfect platform for them to get away with being terrible without consequence.

[Xeztin]

This is my view on it: When people purchase a product, they are more likely to pay more attention to it, (The Story, Art, Animation, Lore, Dialog) because they payed their hard earned cash for it. If someone is watching it for free, they are more than likely to pay less attention to it because they have no money invested into it and they have the feeling of "Ah, I can always go back and view that part later", which they might never do leading to ignorance of a certain part of the series. For example, I have every Assassins Creed video game, I have my time and money invested into this series so I learned everything I could about the lore and plot (Because why stop now?) I'll also buy any future installments just because I'm so far deep into the franchise that It'd be foolish to leave my collection uncompleted even if I don't enjoy it like I used too. A friend a while back gave me a game that I enjoyed, but after that I didn't research anything about it like I did with the AC series, not even the company that made it, probably because I have nothing invested into it. (That leads to my overall ignorance about where the game came from, who was in charge, how long the development cycle was, and the lore that wasn't fully explained in the game.)To sum it up Mike, I agree with owning the product does lead to increased knowledge. (I'm sure there are surveys or statistic's proving this some wheres but more than likely not about Dragon Ball in general)

About the Super thread: Most people that complain about the current product and who watch the streams, more than likely are going to purchase the series on home release (Whether it be Dub or Original) which is why they are complaining now. I think you are more than likely to be dissatisfied with a product if you pay for it and feel you don't get your money's worth. If you don't pay for it, your more than likely to think: "Well, I didn't pay for it so no skin off my bones" and are less likely to complain. I think that's the reason people pay close attention to Super even though they don't own it yet, because they know they are going to own it in the future which animation and art is the number 1 thing people are upset with right now. If there's any possible way to get a change of that, it would be best to complain about it now while it's still in production, instead of waiting until the Dub release because it will be too late by then.

There is that majority who are just as knowledgeable about the series and not owning anything at all, though if they can afford it about 8 times out of 10 a big fan of a series is going to purchase the product itself.

[TripleRach]

Well, I do think there is some correlation. If you care enough to spend a lot of money on something, odds are you care enough to be pretty familiar with it.

But I think it mostly ties into the hardcore fan vs casual fan issue. You could buy a DVD on a whim, watch it once, and then move onto something else. My dad does that sometimes. You can also be obsessive and knowledgeable about something without spending money on it. I've been guilty of that, partly because I spend most of my spare cash on Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon junk.

One big example is Buffy. I was a pretty big fan of it, and still have a great deal of both in-universe and production trivia burned into my mind. But I still don't own any of it on DVD (although I do have all of Angel). I watched a lot of reruns on TV (which my mom paid for), discussed it with friends, and read some fansites. That's it. It's still on my wishlist to buy someday though. And there are a few other series where I'm in a similar situation.

Another thing is tokusatsu. Only a fraction of the existing material has been released unaltered outside of Japan. So attempting to buy all of one big franchise on DVD makes importing the five Japanese Dragon Boxes look like a flea market bargain. But somehow there are a fair amount of people in the West who are pretty knowledgeable about everything from the suit actors to the producers to the financial reports. Of course, I should note that a lot of people do import the toys, which is what really matters in supporting those shows. Doesn't exactly negate the piracy aspect from a legal standpoint, though.

[Adamant]

Another thing is tokusatsu. Only a fraction of the existing material has been released unaltered outside of Japan. So attempting to buy all of one big franchise on DVD makes importing the five Japanese Dragon Boxes look like a flea market bargain. But somehow there are a fair amount of people in the West who are pretty knowledgeable about everything from the suit actors to the producers to the financial reports. Of course, I should note that a lot of people do import the toys, which is what really matters in supporting those shows. Doesn't exactly negate the piracy aspect from a legal standpoint, though.

My understanding is that Toei doesn't give THAT many shits about these series getting pirated, since they produce them primarily so people will watch them and buy tie-in toys, not so that people will pay money to watch and/or own the show. If a bunch of non-Japanese people pirate it, it doesn't translate into much more than the possibility of them importing some toys, which Toei rather appreciates.

[VegettoEX]

Mike, you are completely right, and I'll happily give a detailed analogy as soon as I can get to something to type on besides my phone. This issue comes up in academia all the time, especially in history, and I have numerous firsthand examples of this affecting people.

Looking forward to it.

< post snip >

In short: casuals gonna casual.

I'm going to be an ass here (not to you; don't misunderstand), so let's just get that outta the way!

I think part of my problem is the stretch in logic. You like a show. You like a show a good bunch. You get a friend to talk about it with you. You decide that other people should hear your conversations. You record it and release it. You clearly do not know what you're talking about, can't answer questions about it, and still think this is something other people will want to listen to.

What.

OK, fair enough: I ran a website for a long time before I had any right to say I knew what I was talking about. I didn't know what it meant to have an audience and to be responsible to and for them. Been there, done that. I guess I'm the podcast/website equivalent of "It's 2016; things should be better!" like the folks watching Dragon Ball Super expecting the animation to be Disney-caliber.

My understanding is that Toei doesn't give THAT many shits about these series getting pirated, since they produce them primarily so people will watch them and buy tie-in toys, not so that people will pay money to watch and/or own the show. If a bunch of non-Japanese people pirate it, it doesn't translate into much more than the possibility of them importing some toys, which Toei rather appreciates.

Getting in to a totally separate conversation here, but I guess the main difference is that Dragon Ball has merchandise, sure... but not enough to independently sustain it on a worldwide scale... yet Toei still isn't willing to put in the effort to distribute their successful-worldwide-show to... uhh... the worldwide.

[Adamant]

Getting in to a totally separate conversation here, but I guess the main difference is that Dragon Ball has merchandise, sure... but not enough to independently sustain it on a worldwide scale... yet Toei still isn't willing to put in the effort to distribute their successful-worldwide-show to... uhh... the worldwide.

Oh, definitely. That tangent was purely about the made-almost-exclusively-to-sell-toys-ness and not-really-available-in-a-purchasable-format-anyway-ness of Toei's live-action superhero stuff.
People pirating Super Sentai fansubs isn't exactly going to harm the sale of Power Rangers DVDs either, due to them being practically entirely different shows, which is what would've been Toei's theoretical concern.

It's a rather different situation than most other shows find themselves in.

[Desassina]

Well, I own the Dragon Ball manga legally, and I'm waiting for DB Super to air in my country before I can take on its events, but people are always going to argue with "more faithful" translations in this site, or whatever subbed episodes that they can find. While the former is not illegal, it's only the translation of material that we should be reading in its native language, if we should ever cling to such feat. I trust that editors have access to native Japanese speakers who can translate things to provide the context at hand, and that changes were made for the better, because they got better with time.

So yeah, I own the official product and know that I'm arguing with English speaking comrades, who either cling to information that was not their own, or who try to supercede it with their Japanese reading skills. While this is a good topic, I don't agree that owning the product makes you more knowledgeable, because there's always the condition that the Japanese product > the English one, in a forum of people whose awareness is probably due to the Viz translations. I live in Portugal, and I know I haven't read the manga in Portuguese.

In other words, owning the product makes you passionate and willing to put in the effort to understand it, but the community at large won't see its worth when they have access to it through other means.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I live in a poor shitty little country so I'm pretty much bound to pirate.]

And while I am quite the opposite, this was my first thought. In regions with no hope of a home release, it will break copyright law, but how much fiscal harm are you really doing?

If we're talking about Funimation's various cuts of the show, I can agree with Kunzait's conclusion that this stems from Funimation's Dragon Ball Z having a strange production history coupled with less-invested people naturally not having the context to always know what their looking at. More broadly, though? If we're talking non-Funimation dubs, then no, most of those are genuinely obscure. I did not agree with VegettoEX's sentiment ("You talk about Dragon Ball on the internet, how do you not know these things exist?) when Toonami Asia's Super dub was announced, nor do I now- their ire at a production company other than Funimation doing the show in English (Which I believe was Mike's real beef) being a different matter. Enjoyment of a trivial thing almost never requires one to be deeply submerged in it. I can tell you from experience that kanzenshuu-level detail, when given in proper context, can simply bounce off people, not out of some moral compulsion to avoid the appearance of knowledge, but simply because the property does not interest them in that kind of detail.

As to the actual problem, people defending their misinformation... I don't know. Every Dragon Ball super fan had to piece knowledge together from different places and I imagine most of us would say we had fun doing it; is this really all that different? So long as you shoot down the gravest offenders, I think people should be allowed to have their fun.

[ParkerAL]

"It's 2016; things should be better!" like the folks watching Dragon Ball Super expecting the animation to be Disney-caliber.

Most people who criticize Dragon Ball Super simply want the show to look consistently decent. Sure, there are plenty of fans who lack adequate knowledge when discussing the show's animation. Part of that might come from them lacking the investment needed to educate themselves. But by now, we can't solely blame the widespread dissatisfaction with Super on fans having misinformed expectations. The criticism has been far too persistent for it to be based on flimsy evidence.