Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[coola]

In GT, Cell could still use his tail, and even managed to absorb Goku, it didnt work, because, reasons

[Gorou]

In GT, Cell could still use his tail, and even managed to absorb Goku, it didnt work, because, reasons

We speak of the GT, where such nonsense are ordinary administrations. The Cell's tail was a terrible weapon. Imperfect Cell almost killed Piccolo (opponent stronger than him) with his tail, and struck out 16 in a vital point (if this hadn't been totally robotic would die). Imperfect Cell had a body structure more suited to fighting respect to perfect Cell, although this is supposed to be the ultimate being.
This second form of augmentation, with four arms, sharp spines on the back, a greater mass, and a tail with a harpoon in the end, it is conceptually a perfect combat's weapon.

[BlazingBarrrager]

I agree with you others, about the esthetics not particularly into line with Dragonball, and toriyama style, but, you have to admit that a transformation of this type is 20 times more suited to fight. All transformations of Toriyama are aesthetically sublime, but often lack of practicality (excluding the increase in power ). To fight, are a lot more useful and deadly the pointy horns of the second stage of Freeza, than the bald head of the last form. Even imperfect Cell's tail is a terrible weapon, and certainly much more practice to the black wings of the last stage.

Really the only true impractical transformation are the Super Saiyan Grade forms with Grade 3 being the worst. While the series didn't show any wins with SSJ3 aside from "Wraith of the Dragon," it's still a powerful transformation that can easily turn the tide on the battle and end your opponent quickly. The only reason it was shown to be impractical was because its users, Goku and Gotenks, used the form while dragging on their fights. Goku I think admitted twice that he could have defeated Buu if he fought at full power in SSJ3, but didn't do so because...

a) He believed Gotenks would be able to defeat Fat Buu as a Super Saiyan.
b) He wanted to give Vegeta a chance to fight Kid Buu.

Meanwhile, Gotenks was being Gotenks and was still playing around despite getting "serious" after learning his families' demise, which caused the fusion to wear off before he could deliver the finishing blow. Considering he had attacks that could badly damage Buu, he could have easily wiped Buu from existence. Of course to Gotenks' credit, he (and in turn Goten and Trunks) didn't suffer from heavy fatigue like Goku does.

[Pantalones]

Cold's new form actually works really well on that page -- not near as awkward as it seemed based on the first view of it we saw. Great Freeza's-family-about-to-bust-out-an-evil-laugh sort of facial expression going on in that panel, too.

Super kind of reminded me of something. What if Bra knows Kaio-Ken or false Super Saiyan. She could use either one of those and not get DQed.

Well, "False Super Saiyan" isn't a thing (...it's just Super Saiyan, the color scheme is different in the Slug movie for the same reason Vegeta had wonky colored armor when he first appeared in the anime), but yeah... if she knows Kaio-ken that could very well be how she manages to mess him up like what Bardock's vision showed, while still not violating the "terms" she agreed to. Blue (purple?) with red aura is definitely not yellow/gold after all. XD

[Kamiccolo9]

Cold's new form actually works really well on that page -- not near as awkward as it seemed based on the first view of it we saw. Great Freeza's-family-about-to-bust-out-an-evil-laugh sort of facial expression going on in that panel, too.

Super kind of reminded me of something. What if Bra knows Kaio-Ken or false Super Saiyan. She could use either one of those and not get DQed.

Well, "False Super Saiyan" isn't a thing (...it's just Super Saiyan, the color scheme is different in the Slug movie for the same reason Vegeta had wonky colored armor when he first appeared in the anime), but yeah... if she knows Kaio-ken that could very well be how she manages to mess him up like what Bardock's vision showed, while still not violating the "terms" she agreed to. Blue (purple?) with red aura is definitely not yellow/gold after all. XD

I'm pretty sure that some of the guidebooks retconned the Super Saiyan seen in movie 4 into a "false Super Saiyan." Which is dumb and pointless and all, but what's done is done.

[miguelnuva1]

Cold's new form actually works really well on that page -- not near as awkward as it seemed based on the first view of it we saw. Great Freeza's-family-about-to-bust-out-an-evil-laugh sort of facial expression going on in that panel, too.

Super kind of reminded me of something. What if Bra knows Kaio-Ken or false Super Saiyan. She could use either one of those and not get DQed.

Well, "False Super Saiyan" isn't a thing (...it's just Super Saiyan, the color scheme is different in the Slug movie for the same reason Vegeta had wonky colored armor when he first appeared in the anime), but yeah... if she knows Kaio-ken that could very well be how she manages to mess him up like what Bardock's vision showed, while still not violating the "terms" she agreed to. Blue (purple?) with red aura is definitely not yellow/gold after all. XD

I'm pretty sure that some of the guidebooks retconned the Super Saiyan seen in movie 4 into a "false Super Saiyan." Which is dumb and pointless and all, but what's done is done.

Correct the daiz changed it to false ssj.

[Skar]

While I find myself decidedly in the minority in saying that I immediately loved -- loved -- "Golden Freeza" from concept to execution, I will say that I prefer it to these both precisely because it is minimalist, preserving the sleek-but-menacing style of silhouette that made the fourth form so appealing and distinctive aesthetically, and because it represents the type of deliberately unsubtle, ironizing, playfully winking meta-gag that is nothing if not characteristic Toriyama (which may also help "excuse" it for some should they happen to find the form otherwise objectionable).

Just curious but what makes Golden Freeza differ from the millions of other AF palette swaps we've seen throughout the years? That's what bothered me most about this form. When Golden Freeza was revealed, I've heard fans saying "wow that's so Toriyama! He really goes against fan expectations!". I mean did anyone ever congratulate the artists of all those palette swaps in the past? They were usually referred to as lazy and unimaginative. I don't get how Toriyama gets praised for something that's so common in fanfiction and has never once been praised before. I understand if you like the form since that's your opinion but I'm just curious why it the reaction to it was so different than every other time something like that has been done.

[Shoryuken]

I find myself actually liking his fifth form, but the sixth form is as nearly everyone have said quite the mess.That being said I can imagine that if he' s going to use the same energy bullet technique that his son used whilst in his 3rd form then the extra arms could double that potential. I find myself torn on the issue regarding the golden transformation, on one hand it's neat that it preserves the classic original design, on the other hand it's fees like a lazy palette swap.

[Gorou]

Really the only true impractical transformation are the Super Saiyan Grade forms with Grade 3 being the worst. While the series didn't show any wins with SSJ3 aside from "Wraith of the Dragon," it's still a powerful transformation that can easily turn the tide on the battle and end your opponent quickly. The only reason it was shown to be impractical was because its users, Goku and Gotenks, used the form while dragging on their fights. Goku I think admitted twice that he could have defeated Buu if he fought at full power in SSJ3, but didn't do so because...

a) He believed Gotenks would be able to defeat Fat Buu as a Super Saiyan.
b) He wanted to give Vegeta a chance to fight Kid Buu.

Meanwhile, Gotenks was being Gotenks and was still playing around despite getting "serious" after learning his families' demise, which caused the fusion to wear off before he could deliver the finishing blow. Considering he had attacks that could badly damage Buu, he could have easily wiped Buu from existence. Of course to Gotenks' credit, he (and in turn Goten and Trunks) didn't suffer from heavy fatigue like Goku does.

Wait, you're misreading my post. I'm not talking about power or the amount of Ki, but physical practicality afforded by transformations. The SSJ3, physically, with that long hair, is totaly unfit to martial arts (such long hair are a hindrance to movement and can be grasped by the enemy). Then, things like the power and energy, transcend the appearance and body type,

[Sora Saiyan]

While I find myself decidedly in the minority in saying that I immediately loved -- loved -- "Golden Freeza" from concept to execution, I will say that I prefer it to these both precisely because it is minimalist, preserving the sleek-but-menacing style of silhouette that made the fourth form so appealing and distinctive aesthetically, and because it represents the type of deliberately unsubtle, ironizing, playfully winking meta-gag that is nothing if not characteristic Toriyama (which may also help "excuse" it for some should they happen to find the form otherwise objectionable).

That said, I am surprised not to find myself as thoroughly repulsed with these here forms as the rest of you. I can tolerate them, although perhaps that's just 'cause the quality of Asura's artwork is just that gosh darn elevating. Props!

Of course it preserves it. The only thing that changed was the color scheme.

To be fair, there were a few other small details that changed. Freeza got SSJ3 brow ridges, and his eye shape changed. Those purple gems on him were erased in certain areas or changed shape, besides the one on his torso. Also, the top ofis legs protrude away from his body slightly.

[apex_pretador]

I agree with you others, about the esthetics not particularly into line with Dragonball, and toriyama style, but, you have to admit that a transformation of this type is 20 times more suited to fight. All transformations of Toriyama are aesthetically sublime, but often lack of practicality (excluding the increase in power ). To fight, are a lot more useful and deadly the pointy horns of the second stage of Freeza, than the bald head of the last form. Even imperfect Cell's tail is a terrible weapon, and certainly much more practice to the black wings of the last stage.

Really the only true impractical transformation are the Super Saiyan Grade forms with Grade 3 being the worst. While the series didn't show any wins with SSJ3 aside from "Wraith of the Dragon," it's still a powerful transformation that can easily turn the tide on the battle and end your opponent quickly. The only reason it was shown to be impractical was because its users, Goku and Gotenks, used the form while dragging on their fights. Goku I think admitted twice that he could have defeated Buu if he fought at full power in SSJ3, but didn't do so because...

a) He believed Gotenks would be able to defeat Fat Buu as a Super Saiyan.
b) He wanted to give Vegeta a chance to fight Kid Buu.

Meanwhile, Gotenks was being Gotenks and was still playing around despite getting "serious" after learning his families' demise, which caused the fusion to wear off before he could deliver the finishing blow. Considering he had attacks that could badly damage Buu, he could have easily wiped Buu from existence. Of course to Gotenks' credit, he (and in turn Goten and Trunks) didn't suffer from heavy fatigue like Goku does.

No:

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

[saiyanvegetable]

While I find myself decidedly in the minority in saying that I immediately loved -- loved -- "Golden Freeza" from concept to execution, I will say that I prefer it to these both precisely because it is minimalist, preserving the sleek-but-menacing style of silhouette that made the fourth form so appealing and distinctive aesthetically, and because it represents the type of deliberately unsubtle, ironizing, playfully winking meta-gag that is nothing if not characteristic Toriyama (which may also help "excuse" it for some should they happen to find the form otherwise objectionable).

Just curious but what makes Golden Freeza differ from the millions of other AF palette swaps we've seen throughout the years? That's what bothered me most about this form. When Golden Freeza was revealed, I've heard fans saying "wow that's so Toriyama! He really goes against fan expectations!". I mean did anyone ever congratulate the artists of all those palette swaps in the past? They were usually referred to as lazy and unimaginative. I don't get how Toriyama gets praised for something that's so common in fanfiction and has never once been praised before. I understand if you like the form since that's your opinion but I'm just curious why it the reaction to it was so different than every other time something like that has been done.

Because here AT is considered god and even if he's turned into a lazy sack of shit there will always be someone who finds evidence of his "simplistic genius" in something.

[Gyt Kaliba]

That same laziness is exactly what gave rise to the original Super Saiyan form that everyone finds so iconic now too, you realize. One can't help but wonder if it would have been received just as poorly by the increasingly pessemistic attitude modern day fans have if it was only just now coming out too.

'Oh man, that's IT?! All he did was spike up the hair and not ink it in now! THIS IS SO STUPID, RUINED FOREVER!'

[Skar]

That same laziness is exactly what gave rise to the original Super Saiyan form that everyone finds so iconic now too, you realize. One can't help but wonder if it would have been received just as poorly by the increasingly pessemistic attitude modern day fans have if it was only just now coming out too.

'Oh man, that's IT?! All he did was spike up the hair and not ink it in now! THIS IS SO STUPID, RUINED FOREVER!'

That's not what's being argued here. There's nothing wrong with a simple design. I loved SSJ, Freeza's 4th form, and Kid Buu's design. I'm referring specifically to palette swap transformations, as in getting a preexisting form and just changing the color, and wondering why just now they're being praised but were always ridiculed every time they've been used in fanfiction. If a fan feels that SSJ Blue is so within Toriyama's style then they should've felt the same way about every other fan form that merely changed the hair color.

[rereboy]

That same laziness is exactly what gave rise to the original Super Saiyan form that everyone finds so iconic now too, you realize. One can't help but wonder if it would have been received just as poorly by the increasingly pessemistic attitude modern day fans have if it was only just now coming out too.

'Oh man, that's IT?! All he did was spike up the hair and not ink it in now! THIS IS SO STUPID, RUINED FOREVER!'

You are over-simplifying the issue. SSJ actually looked good for most people. It was effective for most people. Yes, it was basically just another hairstyle, but it gave off an impression of power and evolution that worked and looked good. In those conditions, being simple actually didn't detract from the design. In fact, it made it all the more impressive.

Golden Freeza doesn't look good. At least for me. In those conditions being simple is a liability because, even if it wasn't so simple and we didn't like the design, we could always focus on the work that was put into it... But since it's so simple, focusing on it only makes matters worse...

Cold's forms in DBM, even if you don't like them very much, at least you can appreciate the work that went into designing them and drawing them, as well as the logic behind them that makes them mostly consistent with Coola and Freeza. And if you do like them, that appreciation is even bigger.

[Faustus]

Of course it preserves it. The only thing that changed was the color scheme.

Well, yes, I'm aware, and that's why I think it makes for a (very) minimalist design alteration, which I like. Not quite clear on what you're wanting to point out here.

Just curious but what makes Golden Freeza differ from the millions of other AF palette swaps we've seen throughout the years? That's what bothered me most about this form. When Golden Freeza was revealed, I've heard fans saying "wow that's so Toriyama! He really goes against fan expectations!". I mean did anyone ever congratulate the artists of all those palette swaps in the past? They were usually referred to as lazy and unimaginative. I don't get how Toriyama gets praised for something that's so common in fanfiction and has never once been praised before. I understand if you like the form since that's your opinion but I'm just curious why it the reaction to it was so different than every other time something like that has been done.

I honestly think I did an okay job of it in my last post, but I will reiterate myself here for clarity's sake:

1. Golden Freeza retains the more or less menacingly slim and subdued fourth form shape for its template, which I love love. I also can't help liking how ludicrously gaudy and garish and off-the-wall ostentatious it all ends up looking in terms of color, but that's secondary.

2. More critically, the very concept of a specifically Golden Freeza comes with a bit of coarse irony which I'll say I rather enjoy in my DB. Not only does it invert the classic cold-warm color dynamic between Freeza and Goku, suitably, I think, for the occasion of their second meeting, but for god's sake it virtually turns Freeza Super Saiyan (!), the very thing which he fears most -- only, of course, for him to discover, hysterically and very much to his dismay, that he is another color swap behind the curve this time around. It's playful. It's whimsical. It's got its tongue in its cheek. It's not done half as self-seriously as the lion's share of AF-style fanfiction.

That's why it's different. There you go. One reason for the "Freeza" part and another for the "Golden". Golden Freeza.

I suppose I also never saw it as meant to put forth any kind of novelty in the first place. Yes, it's a palette swap. Yes, it's a rehashing. It’s Freeza re-skinned. Yes, to use a (ridiculous) mixed metaphor, it’s old hat with a new coat of paint. Not so much new ground as old ground revisited. Gotcha. There’s no denying that. Wasn’t that precisely the point of the film in its entirety, though? Nearly everything about RF is recycled! Was it not meant to be a straightforward re: Saiyan/Freeza arc nostalgia flick? Isn’t that exactly how it was marketed? So Freeza doesn’t change all that much? Cool! Narratively, the film does not require any such drastic changes, the way I see it.

Sure, "palette swap" sounds bad in the abstract, 'specially if you impulsively affix the old "lazy"* to it -- as, I'm sad to report, is the wont of many a DB devotee nowadays -- for additional disgruntled effect. Recontextualized in this way, however, the deliberate minimalism of the design choice is not remotely as heinous to my eyes as it is to many others here and indeed I think it produces quite an interesting result taken altogether. Do you catch my meaning?

----

*In yet another twist of irony, isn't tossing this word out whenever one wants to air or express one's dissatisfaction with something, especially something purposefully kept minimalistic with recognizable intended effects such as those I've listed above... well, itself a wee bit "lazy"?

EDIT: From my understanding, Golden Freeza is pretty much popularly reviled both here and elsewhere, across land and sea, through heaven and earth -- so your perplexity about a supposed "double standard" perplexes me. Anyway, wouldn't the burden be on you to show that the people praising the new forms were the very same individuals grousing about swaps way back in AF's heyday? Otherwise I can't see any possible ground for any charge of hypocrisy or contradiction here. Different folks can have different opinions on palette swaps.

[Skar]

*In yet another twist of irony, isn't tossing this word out whenever one wants to air one's dissatisfaction with something, especially something kept intendedly minimalistic with recognizable intended effects such as those I've listed above... well, itself a wee bit "lazy"?

I don't know what's lazy about calling a transformation a palette swap when it's literally named after the color it was changed into. I wasn't a big fan of SSJ God but I can't call that a palette swap since there were enough visual differences that it could've been left blonde and still stand out compared to base. Golden Freeza's design kinda does stand out compared to his original 4th form but the main point of it was that he was now gold like SSJ. I could agree with you on the irony of Freeza using a new transformation that has the same color as SSJ but I can't agree that this is "characteristic Toriyama" because I'm pretty sure this is the first time he's done something like this. The manga was black-and-white so whatever irony he was trying to convey required more effort than just a minor visual difference. I believe the only time Toriyama has done anything like this was in Neko Majin but comparing it to RoF would imply that RoF was also intended as a parody.

EDIT: From my understanding, Golden Freeza is pretty much popularly reviled here and elsewhere, across land and sea, through heaven and earth -- so your perplexity about a supposed "double standard" perplexes me. Anyway, wouldn't the burden be on you to show that the people praising the new forms are the very same folks who were grousing about swaps way back in AF's heyday? Otherwise I can't see any possible grounds for charges of hypocrisy or contradiction here.

I've honestly never met a fan who praised an AF palette swap or claimed that they were something that they could see Toriyama doing. In fact, the only times I've ever seen them brought in a discussion is to joke about them. With so many fans now praising SSJ Blue and Golden Freeza, this leads me to believe that these particular fans either never encountered a recolored AF transformation before or they did like them but for whatever reason never said anything. That's why I asked you how you felt about these types of transformations because I was curious. I wouldn't think there was any double standard if I ever met a fan who said "Why yes I did love the old SSJ fan form with the purple/red/blue/etc hair as much as I liked the new SSJ Blue."

[Faustus]

I meant calling it "lazy", not "palette swap". Haha, I'm not in denial of the facts. Whelp, so much for clarity. Pardon. (EDIT: There, I shifted the asterisk.)

I'm also by no means claiming RF is Neko-Majin-style parody out and out, but I do think it's in the same vein of comedic touches in situations that are otherwise tonally severe as, say, SS3's absurd head of hair, or the galaxy's overseer and (at the time) supreme martial arts teacher turning out to be a stout, bloated catfish dude who spins bad puns.

For the record, while I love love Golden Freeza for all the given reasons, I remain fairly ambivalent about Blue myself.

[saiyanvegetable]

You can pretend you're inside AT's head all you want - connect all the "purposefully kept minimalistic effects" dots you find. The body of work speaks for itself, and this spans across the whole ROF movie and most of modern Dragonball. Super Saiyan God? There is nothing remotely creative as to how that story unfolded. It's some bullshit legend (again) that comes straight out of nowhere, with a bullshit ritual that doesn't make any sense, and on top of that we get 2 bullshit transformations in RoF that come right out of AT's asshole. Two palette swaps, a bunch of uninteresting character tropes that we've seen time and time again, etc. I hate Beerus - but at least his design was a little interesting. Thank god none of that nonsense is in Multiverse.

[Faustus]

You can like what you will and believe what you like, but pardon me if I say with some degree of confidence you'll have a mighty difficult time of convincing me that choosing to turn Freeza gold of all colors (and Goku blue for contrast), in a way that fits perfectly with both Freeza's character history and the very premise of the film itself as a nostalgic remix, is just some random, chance occurrence unthinkingly conjured out of Toriyama's last orifice. Cheers, though.