Death Battle: Goku vs Superman 2

[Khin]

The thing is, Roshi never used the Buff state against outside the scene where he destroyed the moon, so its highly likely that he can't control it, and can only use for a short amount of time, like Goku's Kaio-ken x4 in Saiyan Arc. Not to mention the Kamehameha he used is highly amplified, we knew attacks like that can become many times greater. There's also an interview where Toriyama said that Roshi in RoF was that strong all along if he puts his mind into it, he must be talking about Buff Roshi since that's the state he used for most of the movie, its possible that Roshi can finally manage to control that state in the movie. Roshi being able to bust the moon would also tie with him being able to fight off against Freeza's mooks in RoF. They should at least simply rate his Buff state as Unknown. Possibly Moon level.

[Polyphase Avatron]

One of the problems is their "levels" in the first place. They make up weird "dimensional" "verse" levels that make no sense.

As for Silver Age and even Post Crisis Superman they have some rather silly feats that would put them at crazy powerful levels if you take them at face value. Then again I am not a DC expert, but ask me about Marvel comics and I know a lot more.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I guess you´re right. Someone should make "Characters stronger than Dragon Ball characters and why" kind of a thread somewhere

Oh this fanbase has needed a list like that for a long long time.

[neogaiden]

I think the problem with sites like vsbattle is that they tend to rely heavily on their arbitrary tier ranking and generally consider Naruto forums' calculations to be solid as actual evidence.
Their tiers are mostly based on what x character can destroy, but does not take into account context or if it was actually due to the characters own physical capabilities. ( EG: their profile on The Doctor from Dr. Who ranges from an athletic human to someone that can wreck the multiverse because of his time machine, while for comparison a being like Galactus is ranked lower than him***). Also the calculations they use from Naruto forums ( or just about any comic forum) are dodgy pseudoscience based mostly on assumption and measuring pixels from an agreed upon comic panel. It unreliable, and should be taken with a grain of salt even if it is fun to play with numbers. At the very most vsbattle should treat them as a theoretical.

Aside from these issues I think the character summaries are generally ok.

*** This was an extreme example and I do not think anyone on that site actually believes Galactus is weaker/ less capable, however when looking at some of their vs battles they tend pair characters based on tier even if the tier does not reflect considerable advantages or disadvantages either respective character has. EG: two characters could be powerful enough to wreck a house, putting them on the same tier, however one is mortal and wrecks a house with a sledge hammer, where as the other is immortal and can destroy a it with a single finger. The mortal has no business being on the same tier as the immortal or vice versa but they will still be regarded that way due to a lack of context.

[rereboy]

The thing is, Roshi never used the Buff state against outside the scene where he destroyed the moon, so its highly likely that he can't control it, and can only use for a short amount of time, like Goku's Kaio-ken x4 in Saiyan Arc. Not to mention the Kamehameha he used is highly amplified, we knew attacks like that can become many times greater. There's also an interview where Toriyama said that Roshi in RoF was that strong all along if he puts his mind into it, he must be talking about Buff Roshi since that's the state he used for most of the movie, its possible that Roshi can finally manage to control that state in the movie. Roshi being able to bust the moon would also tie with him being able to fight off against Freeza's mooks in RoF. They should at least simply rate his Buff state as Unknown. Possibly Moon level.

None of what you said answers why Roshi should be able to destroy the moon when Piccolo Daimao, who was much stronger, got exhausted after doing two city level attack. Piccolo Daimao also knows about Ki and Ki control, and thus amplified attacks.

[Kuririn Fan]

Goku is stronger.
Fuck Superman.

[Soppa Saia People]

Goku is stronger.
Fuck Superman.

Naw, Supes wrecks Gokuu's shit every day, sorry.

[Kuririn Fan]

Goku is stronger.
Fuck Superman.

Naw, Supes wrecks Gokuu's shit every day, sorry.

*insert image of an epic character called Batman killin a boring "character" called Superman here*

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Goku is stronger.
Fuck Superman.

If you are not going to post something substantial to the conversation, please don´t bother in continue beating this dead horse.

[Kuririn Fan]

Goku is stronger.
Fuck Superman.

If you are not going to post something substantial to the conversation, please don´t bother in continue beating this dead horse.

I posted something substantial to the conversation - i ended the debate.

[Soppa Saia People]

Goku is stronger.
Fuck Superman.

If you are not going to post something substantial to the conversation, please don´t bother in continue beating this dead horse.

I posted something substantial to the conversation - i ended the debate.

It's not funny, it's annoying.

[Kuririn Fan]

It's not funny, it's annoying.

Sorry, bro

[Sora Saiyan]

The thing is, Roshi never used the Buff state against outside the scene where he destroyed the moon, so its highly likely that he can't control it, and can only use for a short amount of time, like Goku's Kaio-ken x4 in Saiyan Arc. Not to mention the Kamehameha he used is highly amplified, we knew attacks like that can become many times greater. There's also an interview where Toriyama said that Roshi in RoF was that strong all along if he puts his mind into it, he must be talking about Buff Roshi since that's the state he used for most of the movie, its possible that Roshi can finally manage to control that state in the movie. Roshi being able to bust the moon would also tie with him being able to fight off against Freeza's mooks in RoF. They should at least simply rate his Buff state as Unknown. Possibly Moon level.

None of what you said answers why Roshi should be able to destroy the moon when Piccolo Daimao, who was much stronger, got exhausted after doing two city level attack. Piccolo Daimao also knows about Ki and Ki control, and thus amplified attacks.

DB doesn't quite follow the system of a more powerful attack being able to destroy more. A prime example is when Gohan rages against Nappa, he puts everything he had into his attack and it only makes a tiny explosion yet the attack potency is much greater than Piccolos attack that destroyed the moon earlier in that arc.

[Khin]

None of what you said answers why Roshi should be able to destroy the moon when Piccolo Daimao, who was much stronger, got exhausted after doing two city level attack. Piccolo Daimao also knows about Ki and Ki control, and thus amplified attacks.

It would be nice if you state a reason why Max Power Roshi is weaker than Daimo, because Roshi only used the form twice, and he was shown to be able to do those only for a few seconds. In fact, Toriyama's comment on RoF Roshi being that strong all along is a stronger implication that he's Raditz tier in his Max Power (He was beating Freeza's goons in RoF in his Buff state).

[rereboy]

None of what you said answers why Roshi should be able to destroy the moon when Piccolo Daimao, who was much stronger, got exhausted after doing two city level attack. Piccolo Daimao also knows about Ki and Ki control, and thus amplified attacks.

It would be nice if you state a reason why Max Power Roshi is weaker than Daimo, because Roshi only used the form twice, and he was shown to be able to do those only for a few seconds. In fact, Toriyama's comment on RoF Roshi being that strong all along is a stronger implication that he's Raditz tier in his Max Power (He was beating Freeza's goons in RoF in his Buff state).

Piccolo Daimao was so much more powerful that Roshi considered all efforts to actually fight him, alone or in a group, pointless. That logically includes himself fighting, with his best attacks. He litteraly thought that only the Mafuba could work.

Toriyama's statement only talks about how Roshi is now, decades later and that he always had that potential. If you take it to mean that he was that strong (radditz level on his max attack), how he acted and what he thought in the Piccolo Daimao saga doesn't make sense.

DB doesn't quite follow the system of a more powerful attack being able to destroy more. A prime example is when Gohan rages against Nappa, he puts everything he had into his attack and it only makes a tiny explosion yet the attack potency is much greater than Piccolos attack that destroyed the moon earlier in that arc.

DB is indeed inconsistent in many ways. Which is why people who might consider the most inconsistent things about it, like Roshi destroying the moon, as an outlier, for the objective of a better comparison with other franchises, have valid reasons to do so.

[Khin]

Piccolo Daimao was so much more powerful that Roshi considered all efforts to actually fight him, alone or in a group, pointless. That logically includes himself fighting, with his best attacks. He litteraly thought that only the Mafuba could work.

Toriyama's statement only talks about how Roshi is now, decades later.

If Roshi tried all his best against Daimao, why didn't he used his Max Power, since that state is supposed to be stronger than his regular form ? Roshi not using his Max Power against Daimo just means that using Mafuba would be a better choice than firing a Moon-busting Kamehameha against Daimao, since the Kamehameha would obliterate the latter causing Kami to die in the process. And also, Roshi was never implied to be doing some serious training those years.

[rereboy]

Piccolo Daimao was so much more powerful that Roshi considered all efforts to actually fight him, alone or in a group, pointless. That logically includes himself fighting, with his best attacks. He litteraly thought that only the Mafuba could work.

Toriyama's statement only talks about how Roshi is now, decades later.

If Roshi tried all his best against Daimao, why didn't he used his Max Power, since that state is supposed to be stronger than his regular form ? Roshi not using his Max Power against Daimo just means that using Mafuba would be a better choice than firing a Moon-busting Kamehameha against Daimao, since the Kamehameha would obliterate the latter causing Kami to die in the process. And also, Roshi was never implied to be doing some serious training those years.

Chapter: 142, P4.2
Context: Tenshinhan wants to fight Piccolo
Kame-sennin: “I understand how you feel, but his strength far surpasses the imagination. Even if we ganged up on him, we couldn’t possibly take him.

Like I said, Roshi literally said that there is no way to fight him, even if they all fought together. He's beyond anything that they can even imagine. That wouldn't be the case if his strongest Kamehameha could actually kill Piccolo.

Roshi doesn't even try to fight because he knows there is no possible way. Only the Mafuba can stop Piccolo.

[Khin]

Chapter: 142, P4.2
Context: Tenshinhan wants to fight Piccolo
Kame-sennin: “I understand how you feel, but his strength far surpasses the imagination. Even if we ganged up on him, we couldn’t possibly take him.

And that still doesn't answer my question on why Roshi never used his strongest state against Daimao . And Toriyama's comment on how Rosh was that strong all along if he put his mind into it when he was never implied to stated that he did serious training in those decades.

[rereboy]

Chapter: 142, P4.2
Context: Tenshinhan wants to fight Piccolo
Kame-sennin: “I understand how you feel, but his strength far surpasses the imagination. Even if we ganged up on him, we couldn’t possibly take him.

And that still doesn't answer my question on why Roshi never used his strongest state against Daimao . And Toriyama's comment on how Rosh was that strong all along if he put his mind into it when he was never implied to stated that he did serious training in those decades.

Are you trolling...? Of course it answers it. Roshi is saying that they can't possibly take him if they try to fight him no matter what. That logically and obviously includes Roshi using his strongest state. If it didn't, the statement wouldn't make sense.

You are either trolling, blind to what is being pointed out, or just can't understand it. Any way, there is no way to make it clearer, so I'm done here.

[Khin]

Are you trolling...? Of course it answers it. Roshi is saying that they can't possibly take him if they try to fight him no matter what. That logically and obviously includes Roshi using his strongest state. If it didn't, the statement wouldn't make sense.

You are either trolling, blind to what is being pointed out, or just can't understand it. Any way, there is no way to make it clearer, so I'm done here.

No it doesn't. If Roshi actually tried all he can against Piccolo, he should've try to use his strongest form even if its useless, but he didn't. That means he didn't use the Max Power because it would kill Piccolo, and would also kill Kami in the process. Which would ruin the Kami-Piccolo thing later and would make Roshi saving the day. It was also shown that Roshi only used his Buff state twice and also only for a short period of time, so its highly likely that he can't control the form until in the RoF Arc.

Toriyama saying that Muten Roshi was that strong all along if he puts his mind into it, along with kicking Freeza's soldiers ass ties with the feat. Roshi was never implied or stated anywhere that he did some serious training all those years, unless you think Roshi got magically stronger out of nowhere.