"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Frankly, unless there's some explanation, there is indeed some bullshit in this chapter. Trunks, who is more or less on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku got his shit wrecked by Base Black a few chapters prior, yet Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, who should only be on the level of Super Saiyan 2 Goku dominated not only Base Black, but even Super Saiyan (Or 2) Black ?

If this happened in the anime, I'm 100% sure people are gonna lose their shit.

Anyway, I got to say that I really love how regular Super Saiyan Black looks. And Present Zamasu's death is on par if not better than the anime, but it's really dumb for him to attack Beerus head-on. I particularly liked how the attack Beerus used was very similar to what he did to the egg in the BoG movie, a nice callback. One thing I also like is the water-like effect Toyo is using for Super Saiyan Blue, we barely see that in the anime (The last time we saw something like that was against Cabba I think).

I still dislike how Zamasu having an emo look in the manga, and Black just seems to have less charisma here than in the anime. But given that it's from Toriyama himself, I'm pretty sure we're going to see him go Rosé next chapter.

Of course they would have. This is the same forum that called Black a terrible villain and a weakling because he was only even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku, in his base form I may add. Black being unable to beat Super Saiyan 2 in his base form is extremely weird. I am willing to wait for the translation, but this baffles me more than Trunks' mutated Super Saiyan 2. I can only think that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is mutated too, meaning Goku is the big loser. I guess it makes up for Vegeta not having Super Saiyan God.

How was it explained? If I remember correctly, all Trunks said he trained the form to be that strong.

That's it. It's not detailed but it addresses the problem.

By the way I like your Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta theory. I would love if that was what happened here. Although it would have to replace regular SSJ2, since they look the same.

It really doesn't in my opinion since it raises the question of why Goku, the fighting genius who invented Mastered Super Saiyan, never got this mutated Super Saiyan 2, especially after he realized what a drain Super Saiyan 3 was.

Also, even if Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 is mutated, it shouldn't be stronger than Trunks' since their base forms are the same power. If Trunks is as strong as Vegeta after training, he really didn't need backup. But then, what's the power jump from going from weaker than base form Black to being stronger than Super Saiyan 1/2 Black?

[TheMikado]

I'm not sure why we are tripping over the power levels? I don't recall Trunks ever going SSJ2 against Black, maybe I'm wrong, I will say Base taking on SSJ Trunks seems wrong but we also don't know if Trunks previously fought Black while Black was SSJ. Not sure if we get some answers but I'm thinking we may get some exposition if Vegeta is cleaning his clock pretty easily and Trunks supposedly is strong.

[Doctor.]

I'm not sure why we are tripping over the power levels? I don't recall Trunks ever going SSJ2 against Black, maybe I'm wrong, I will say Base taking on SSJ Trunks seems wrong but we also don't know if Trunks previously fought Black while Black was SSJ. Not sure if we get some answers but I'm thinking we may get some exposition if Vegeta is cleaning his clock pretty easily and Trunks supposedly is strong.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

He's clearly SS2.

[Draconic]

I'm not sure why we are tripping over the power levels? I don't recall Trunks ever going SSJ2 against Black, maybe I'm wrong, I will say Base taking on SSJ Trunks seems wrong but we also don't know if Trunks previously fought Black while Black was SSJ. Not sure if we get some answers but I'm thinking we may get some exposition if Vegeta is cleaning his clock pretty easily and Trunks supposedly is strong.

The whole fight between Black and Trunks in Chapter 15 had Trunks in SSJ2 and Black in base. And Black stomped him, to the point he beat him out of the form.

[HeroR]

I'm not sure why we are tripping over the power levels? I don't recall Trunks ever going SSJ2 against Black, maybe I'm wrong, I will say Base taking on SSJ Trunks seems wrong but we also don't know if Trunks previously fought Black while Black was SSJ. Not sure if we get some answers but I'm thinking we may get some exposition if Vegeta is cleaning his clock pretty easily and Trunks supposedly is strong.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks fought Black in Chapter 15. That is why it was assumed that Black was as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku since Trunks was on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Goku used his god form to one-shot Trunks. I also recall it because fans called Black more of a threat in the manga since he was Super Saiyan God level, while anime Black was only as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Goku, despite holding back and Trunks saying he was as powerful as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. In fact, I remember fans saying that the anime made Black look like a total wimp by beating by Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

The whole fight between Black and Trunks in Chapter 15 had Trunks in SSJ2 and Black in base. And Black stomped him, to the point he beat him out of the form.

So the manga did the opposite of the anime and made Black weaker? The only explanation I can find is that Vegeta jumped in power while training Trunks. I also have imagine that Toriyama's notes said that Vegeta beat up Black at one point.

[Lord Beerus]

SSJ/SSJ2 Goku Black should be giving SSJ2 Vegeta the ass kicking of a lifetime instead of just getting beaten down like he does, considering his base form is SSJ3 tier in strength, as Base Goku Black is way stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, strong enough to the point where he beat him out of the form. And SSJ2 Future Trunks is in turn is much stronger than SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta and par with SSJ3 Goku. It really doesn't make any sense.

So, yeah. The power-scaling has officially gone to shit in the manga. This is even worse than what Toyataro did with Hit.

[HeroR]

SSJ/SSJ2 Goku Black should be giving SSJ2 Vegeta the ass kicking of a lifetime instead of just getting beaten down like he does, considering his base form is SSJ3 tier in strength, as Base Goku Black is way stronger than SSJ2 Future Trunks, strong enough to the point where he beat him out of the form. And SSJ2 Future Trunks is in turn is much stronger than SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta and par with SSJ3 Goku. It really doesn't make any sense.

So, yeah. The power-scaling has officially gone to shit in the manga. This is even worse than what Toyataro did with Hit.

I thought the power scaling for Hit in the manga was fine. Toyataro just gimped him and made him far less impressive than anime Hit, which some fans liked.

[Doctor.]

I thought the power scaling for Hit in the manga was fine. Toyataro just gimped him and made him far less impressive than anime Hit, which some fans liked.

It wasn't fine when, in one moment, Hit is on-par with Super Saiyan Goku and then in the next he can tank hits from Super Saiyan God Goku without any comment about him powering-up.

[ekrolo2]

I thought the power scaling for Hit in the manga was fine. Toyataro just gimped him and made him far less impressive than anime Hit, which some fans liked.

It wasn't fine when, in one moment, Hit is on-par with Super Saiyan Goku and then in the next he can tank hits from Super Saiyan God Goku without any comment about him powering-up.

There is, there's a whole bit with Hit powering up and commenting that he's at his maximum but that he can only hold it for a very short bit of time.

[Doctor.]

I thought the power scaling for Hit in the manga was fine. Toyataro just gimped him and made him far less impressive than anime Hit, which some fans liked.

It wasn't fine when, in one moment, Hit is on-par with Super Saiyan Goku and then in the next he can tank hits from Super Saiyan God Goku without any comment about him powering-up.

There is, there's a whole bit with Hit powering up and commenting that he's at his maximum but that he can only hold it for a very short bit of time.

That's afterwards. He powers-up to fight Super Saiyan God Goku. But before that point, his power was stated to be on-par with SS Goku and when Goku powers-up, he's tanking punches and Ki blasts from SSG Goku prior to his own power-up.

[HeroR]

I thought the power scaling for Hit in the manga was fine. Toyataro just gimped him and made him far less impressive than anime Hit, which some fans liked.

It wasn't fine when, in one moment, Hit is on-par with Super Saiyan Goku and then in the next he can tank hits from Super Saiyan God Goku without any comment about him powering-up.

Didn't Hit say he was holding back?

[Abra kadabra]

Wait. The vegeta that was beating black around in the new chapter was SSJ2? I thought he was SSB. That makes no sense

[ekrolo2]

Wait. The vegeta that was beating black around in the new chapter was SSJ2? I thought he was SSB. That makes no sense

He fights him first as an SS2 then as Blue and kicks Blacks ass in both when it was established that Base Black was stronger than SS2 Trunks who was in turn a lot stronger than SS2 Goku and Vegeta.

[Lord Beerus]

Wait. The vegeta that was beating black around in the new chapter was SSJ2? I thought he was SSB. That makes no sense

He fights him first as an SS2 then as Blue and kicks Blacks ass in both when it was established that Base Black was stronger than SS2 Trunks who was in turn a lot stronger than SS2 Goku and Vegeta.

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

[ekrolo2]

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

Eh, if you're gonna bother trying to make sense of the scaling at this point, you deserve any headache that comes your way. I am officially done unless a translation reveals something we're missing.

[Abra kadabra]

The whole chapter was a vegeta wankfest

[HeroR]

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

The anime does have consistency. The only one who who wobbles was Future Trunks and some of that can be hand wave as rage boosts and catching people off-guard. There is also Goku's performance against Merged Zamasu, but at least that cost Goku's limbs. I guess I throw Piccolo in here while I'm at it, which is explained as Frost being weakened by Goku and him underestimating Piccolo.

This, if there is no good explanation, is just weird because the manga made base Black stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, who was an even match against Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Now, we have Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta kicking Super Saiyan 1/2 Black's butt. In this case, it almost seems the writer forgot their own power scaling.

The whole chapter was a vegeta wankfest

Well, someone has to make Vegeta look good. It certainly not the anime /s.

[Lord Beerus]

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

Eh, if you're gonna bother trying to make sense of the scaling at this point, you deserve any headache that comes your way. I am officially done unless a translation reveals something we're missing.

When you say you are done, do you mean you are done with the anime and the manga?

[TheMikado]

Wait. The vegeta that was beating black around in the new chapter was SSJ2? I thought he was SSB. That makes no sense

He fights him first as an SS2 then as Blue and kicks Blacks ass in both when it was established that Base Black was stronger than SS2 Trunks who was in turn a lot stronger than SS2 Goku and Vegeta.

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

Wouldn't the whole issue be Toriyamas fault if he called for Black to beat SSJ Trunks in base and then turn around and get beat down by SSB Vegeta while still having the ability to go SSJ??? Like SSJ Black alone according to the initial powerscaling against Trunks should be enough to take on SSB Vegeta but if it calls for Blacks SSB equivalent to be weaker than SSB Vegeta and get beat down which happens in both versions it looks like the whole arcs consistency was completely trashed from the beginning and both took different approaches to fix it. Neither looking very successful.

[ekrolo2]

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

Eh, if you're gonna bother trying to make sense of the scaling at this point, you deserve any headache that comes your way. I am officially done unless a translation reveals something we're missing.

When you say you are done, do you mean you are done with the anime and the manga?

I'm done with the scaling debates, the only answer that counts is that its shit everywhere now. As for the actual stories? At this point I'm just watching it for the inevitable slew of remakes I'll have to write for em.