"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SansrivaaL]

Black is obviously sandbagging the fight, that's obvious from Base Black struggling with SSJ2 Vegeta, after he stomped SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks in this chapter is even confused and worried

He's surprised because its been a long time since he saw Black go SSJ, he fought him in SSJ before but eventually gotten stronger to the point of not needing it against him anymore, which is hell a weird because Trunks SSJ2=Goku SSJ3.

[Beyond]

predictions for outline in next arc

Get a team of 10 (you know the ones)

Show Goku and Vegeta training.

Before tourny starts, Zeno says all losing universe get blown up. Everyone else freaks out because they didn't train.

Everyone not name Goku and Vegeta jobs (Gohan gets one win to appease the fans).

Vegeta jobs to the big bad.

Goku wins.

How much you wanna bet?

That would be different since Goku hasn't had a straight win against the final opponent since Super started.

True. I'll change the last one to Goku somehow convinces Zeno to chill out.

[HeroR]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

Did you seen the outline. If you have, can I see your copy?

Toyataro explicitly stated he follows the plot points from the outline given to him by Toriyama and doesn't diverge from him. Obviously the plot points, considering what we've seen this manga so far in relation to arc are:
- Black beats SSJ2 Future Trunks
- Mai dies ( )
- Future Trunks goes back in time
- SSJ2 Future Trunks fights SSJ3 Goku
- Zamasu is Black
- Beerus kills Zamasu
- Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks travel to the future
- Black transforms
- Vegeta transforms and fights Black

And considering that Toriyama gave Toyataro free reign to change the plot as he please, we can tell with the exclusion of Super Saiyan Rose that is in full effect. This is something that Toriyama not only allowed to happen but encouraged to happen.

Those are basic story points. It doesn't say where power levels go other than Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, and Goku and Trunks spar. Also, Toyataro more or less said Toriyama doesn't care about story details, just the gags.

[OLKv3]

Black is obviously sandbagging the fight, that's obvious from Base Black struggling with SSJ2 Vegeta, after he stomped SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks in this chapter is even confused and worried

He's surprised because its been a long time since he saw Black go SSJ, he fought him in SSJ before but eventually gotten stronger to the point of not needing it against him anymore, which is hell a weird because Trunks SSJ2=Goku SSJ3.

He also gets Goku to tell Vegeta to finish the fight, because something doesn't feel right. Vegeta listens and tries to end it. Black is sandbagging. Why I don't know. We've been shown and reminded that SSJ2 Trunks is nothing to Base Black. He's sandbagging for a free powerup?

[TheMikado]

Honestly some of you guys have to stop thinking of power levels so linearly. I realize that's what we've been accustomed to for most of Dragon Ball, but at this point with the franchise being so big "power consistency" will take a backseat to whatever story they want to tell and the showings they will need to tell it. I honestly can't imagine Hitto destroying universes with punches yet he's fighting a stronger version of the guy who was starting to do just that against Beerus. This happens all the time in comics, and now primarily manga readers are going to experience this through Super and beyond. Not necessarily a bad thing imo as long as the story is enjoyable and the art/animation is pretty to look at lol

Not sure if you were around for New Coke but telling your market they should like something because it's new and better is not an appropriate marketing technique especially when your audience became fans of the old version of your product. It fine, people who don't like it will just stop the watching and those that do will continue. I'll probably just check out clips and follow the general story to see how it's going. Maybe watch a slice of life episode when they have them. Other than that I honk I'm done. I actually feel disrespected as a fan as I feel the effort and care I'm accustomed to seeing in the series isn't present. I don't like the idea of Toriyama doing outlines any more, it feels like he doesn't think about the intricacies about how things will play out unless he's intimately involved. Thinking back, all the DBZ arcs would have been horrible if he just delivered an outline overview and someone else was supposed to put the piec s to together. It's so intricate those arcs don't even make sense when you try to explain them, you often have to do watch/read them to fully understand.

[TheMikado]

Did you seen the outline. If you have, can I see your copy?

Toyataro explicitly stated he follows the plot points from the outline given to him by Toriyama and doesn't diverge from him. Obviously the plot points, considering what we've seen this manga so far in relation to arc are:
- Black beats SSJ2 Future Trunks
- Mai dies ( )
- Future Trunks goes back in time
- SSJ2 Future Trunks fights SSJ3 Goku
- Zamasu is Black
- Beerus kills Zamasu
- Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks travel to the future
- Black transforms
- Vegeta transforms and fights Black

And considering that Toriyama gave Toyataro free reign to change the plot as he please, we can tell with the exclusion of Super Saiyan Rose that is in full effect. This is something that Toriyama not only allowed to happen but encouraged to happen.

Those are basic story points. It doesn't say where power levels go other than Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, and Goku and Trunks spar. Also, Toyataro more or less said Toriyama doesn't care about story details, just the gags.

Do no one else see a problem with the story creator not caring about the details of the story? That seems like it would make a far worse product.

[OLKv3]

I wish we had the DB editors

[TheMikado]

I wish we had the DB editors

Agreed, just someone to hold Toriyama accountable.

[HeroR]

Do no one else see a problem with the story creator not caring about the details of the story? That seems like it would make a far worse product.

He would probably protest if they go too off the rails. He did complain about Super. But, Toriyama never really cared about power levels giving that the manga he wrote has some odd scaling. Like how did Piccolo get over 100x stronger in three years, and the power boost is larger than the one he had after becoming complete. And why didn't Goku punch 50% Freeza into pieces since he clearly wasn't holding back.

[SansrivaaL]

Black is obviously sandbagging the fight, that's obvious from Base Black struggling with SSJ2 Vegeta, after he stomped SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks in this chapter is even confused and worried

He's surprised because its been a long time since he saw Black go SSJ, he fought him in SSJ before but eventually gotten stronger to the point of not needing it against him anymore, which is hell a weird because Trunks SSJ2=Goku SSJ3.

He also gets Goku to tell Vegeta to finish the fight, because something doesn't feel right. Vegeta listens and tries to end it. Black is sandbagging. Why I don't know. We've been shown and reminded that SSJ2 Trunks is nothing to Base Black. He's sandbagging for a free powerup?

I have literally no idea cause if he only wanted a powerup via sandbagging then why did he beat Trunks to a pulp, he should have sandbagged back then as well. I am confused as hell as to whats happening in the manga powerlevels.

[micah007]

Honestly some of you guys have to stop thinking of power levels so linearly. I realize that's what we've been accustomed to for most of Dragon Ball, but at this point with the franchise being so big "power consistency" will take a backseat to whatever story they want to tell and the showings they will need to tell it. I honestly can't imagine Hitto destroying universes with punches yet he's fighting a stronger version of the guy who was starting to do just that against Beerus. This happens all the time in comics, and now primarily manga readers are going to experience this through Super and beyond. Not necessarily a bad thing imo as long as the story is enjoyable and the art/animation is pretty to look at lol

Not sure if you were around for New Coke but telling your market they should like something because it's new and better is not an appropriate marketing technique especially when your audience became fans of the old version of your product. It fine, people who don't like it will just stop the watching and those that do will continue. I'll probably just check out clips and follow the general story to see how it's going. Maybe watch a slice of life episode when they have them. Other than that I honk I'm done. I actually feel disrespected as a fan as I feel the effort and care I'm accustomed to seeing in the series isn't present. I don't like the idea of Toriyama doing outlines any more, it feels like he doesn't think about the intricacies about how things will play out unless he's intimately involved. Thinking back, all the DBZ arcs would have been horrible if he just delivered an outline overview and someone else was supposed to put the piec s to together. It's so intricate those arcs don't even make sense when you try to explain them, you often have to do watch/read them to fully understand.

I understand your position, but I feel like we have way too many pointless power level discussions when it is clear at this point they really don't care about power unless they need to show something off for the story. The fact of the matter is we need to try and accept this, because I doubt they will be changing this stance on consistency anytime. To respond to what you said about Toriyama outlines I would actually like to see Toyotaro write an original story instead of having to adapt whatever bare points Toriyama has put down. You never know that might be the best for everyone, if they are allowed to take full reins I mean Toyotaro said Toriyama doesn't care much for intricacies of the story (for better or for worse) so I agree he doesn't seem to be very involved in this project.

[OLKv3]

Do no one else see a problem with the story creator not caring about the details of the story? That seems like it would make a far worse product.

He would probably protest if they go too off the rails. He did complain about Super. But, Toriyama never really cared about power levels giving that the manga he wrote has some odd scaling. Like how did Piccolo get over 100x stronger in three years, and the power boost is larger than the one he had after becoming complete. And why didn't Goku punch 50% Freeza into pieces since he clearly wasn't holding back.

He had his editors streamlining his work whenever he'd go off the rails as well though. Probably a big reason why things were more consistent back then. Now he has freedom to do whatever he wants, so we have stuff like Roshi overpowering Freeza goons

He's surprised because its been a long time since he saw Black go SSJ, he fought him in SSJ before but eventually gotten stronger to the point of not needing it against him anymore, which is hell a weird because Trunks SSJ2=Goku SSJ3.

He also gets Goku to tell Vegeta to finish the fight, because something doesn't feel right. Vegeta listens and tries to end it. Black is sandbagging. Why I don't know. We've been shown and reminded that SSJ2 Trunks is nothing to Base Black. He's sandbagging for a free powerup?

I have literally no idea cause if he only wanted a powerup via sandbagging then why did he beat Trunks to a pulp, he should have sandbagged back then as well. I am confused as hell as to whats happening in the manga powerlevels.

Seems like no matter the medium, this arc is destined to have powerlevels be all over the place, Toriyama just didn't give a damn

[HeroR]

He had his editors streamlining his work whenever he'd go off the rails as well though. Probably a big reason why things were more consistent back then. Now he has freedom to do whatever he wants, so we have stuff like Roshi overpowering Freeza goons

It was stated in Resurrection 'F' that Freeza's grone were second-rate trash and were probably weaker than Raditz. And one of Toriyama's strictest editors saw the script for the movie and loved it.

His editor streamlined him, to a point. The only documented case we have of editors doing anything major to the story is the Android/Cell Saga.

[Abra kadabra]

I've been reading around and I think black might be letting himself get teabagged. He says he doesn't have SSR "yet". And Trunks can tell that somethings a little fishy. I think the tables are gonna turn next chapter

[dbzfan7]

Damn now powerscaling is screwed up here too. It looked like base Black was handling things fine...he musta weakened himself by transforming .

[Kishido]

So is Black Super Saiyan 2 or not.. At first he loks like 2 but later his hair is back to regular.

So no clue.. But I have no doubt he will unlock Rose now for some reason

[HeroR]

I've been reading around and I think black might be letting himself get teabagged. He says he doesn't have SSR "yet". And Trunks can't tell that somethings a little fishy. I think the tables are gonna turn next chapter

That actually would makes sense. Let Vegeta smack him around, have his buddy heal him, look I'm a god!

[SansrivaaL]

Damn now powerscaling is screwed up here too. It looked like base Black was handling things fine...he musta weakened himself by transforming .

Meh Goku is just that weak
SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ Black>Base Black>Trunks SSJ2=Goku SSJ3, Trunks was lucky it was Goku that tested him out, if it was Vegeta freaking base Vegeta would have 1H.K.O.

[OLKv3]

I've been reading around and I think black might be letting himself get teabagged. He says he doesn't have SSR "yet". And Trunks can't tell that somethings a little fishy. I think the tables are gonna turn next chapter

Lol yep. He was doing fine at Base, then somehow did much worse when he went SSJ

[TheMikado]

I've been reading around and I think black might be letting himself get teabagged. He says he doesn't have SSR "yet". And Trunks can tell that somethings a little fishy. I think the tables are gonna turn next chapter

Ok that makes more sense but I still don't like how everything is so screwy between versions. Depending on what you read/watched you have a completely different interpretation of things.