"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Where hasn't Toriyama reached the audience?

I was referring to Toyotaro: his work is completely hollow, there's nothing there to grab your attention and keep you reading. Even the art isn't that great when you see what some other guys are doing in the doujinshi circles Toyotaro started out from.

This is Toriyama's work. Toyotaro follows his outline and Toriyama believes Toyotaro is the closest to mimic his style. Rightfully so.
The art is good, it has appeal, the story pretty much follows anime story. Got any examples?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I'm sure I'm alone in this, but I absolutely love when Toyotaro does these odd looking poses.[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Basako]

Where hasn't Toriyama reached the audience?

I was referring to Toyotaro: his work is completely hollow, there's nothing there to grab your attention and keep you reading. Even the art isn't that great when you see what some other guys are doing in the doujinshi circles Toyotaro started out from.

I disagree, I wish they used the manga as a base storyboard for the fights in the anime, and for the rest too. And the art, well, looks amazing to me. I enjoy it a lot, I will buy the manga as soon as it gets released in here and put it right beside Toriyama's DB mangas. By the way, Toriyama has said he is happy with Toyotaro's job many times, not only that, he supervises it.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Where hasn't Toriyama reached the audience?

I was referring to Toyotaro: his work is completely hollow, there's nothing there to grab your attention and keep you reading. Even the art isn't that great when you see what some other guys are doing in the doujinshi circles Toyotaro started out from.

Hm I think you may have a point actually, like the future fight R1 in the anime ended in that cliffhanger with Vegeta getting stabbed and Zamasu arriving in turn got you hooked in for the next episode. While reading through this that just wasn't there, all it was Vegeta stomping Black & then even the death of present Zamasu lacked anything, we at least got to see Zamasu commit the crime before Beerus and Whis rewinded time and interfered while here Beerus just interfered from the get go.

He's done a poor job of setting the villains up here.

[ekrolo2]

I disagree, I wish they used the manga as a base storyboard for the fights in the anime, and for the rest too. And the art, well, looks amazing to me. I enjoy it a lot, I will buy the manga as soon as it gets released in here and put it right beside Toriyama's DB mangas. By the way, Toriyama has said he is happy with Toyotaro's job many times, not only that, he supervises it.

And I should care about Toriyama's opinion on this because....?
The art is fine and so was the scaling up until this chapter but just reading the manga as its own thing isn't satisfying at all. There's nothing to latch on to, the story doesn't engage you, the character stuff which is virtually non existent here fails to engage you. Its all functional I guess but that's all it is: functional. It kind of works but its so painfully average it elicits no response from the reader.

This is Toriyama's work. Toyotaro follows his outline and Toriyama believes Toyotaro is the closest to mimic his style. Rightfully so.
The art is good, it has appeal, the story pretty much follows anime story. Got any examples?

This is an adaptation of Toriyama's vague outlines, he makes the basis but its the job of Toyotaro and Toei to make it into an engaging narrative and they both fail. The anime is a hot mess of sometimes good ideas and sometimes bad ones being juggled by a writing staff that's either too rushed or incompetent to make it work. Toyotaro is more functional in this regard but he fails to engage on any level. There's nothing necessarily bad about the manga but there's nothing exceptional: its just an average thing that exists.

[HeroR]

Mate, let's stop pretending Toriyama is kinda of God immune to criticism. He's the author and we'll be always grateful for his work in the past, but it's not that hard to think that maybe the problems with manga/anime are his fault.

You would think we would be past this considering Toriyama was responsible for the abomination known as ROF.

I like that 'abomination' and so do many other people given the ratings it got. Let's not pretend that the movie being trash is the prevailing opinion.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Mate, let's stop pretending Toriyama is kinda of God immune to criticism. He's the author and we'll be always grateful for his work in the past, but it's not that hard to think that maybe the problems with manga/anime are his fault.

You would think we would be past this considering Toriyama was responsible for the abomination known as ROF.

I like that 'abomination' and so do many other people given the ratings it got. Let's not pretend that the movie being trash is the prevailing opinion.

Lots of people say they like it, but I haven't heard a good reason why, yet. I have a feeling it's just a nostalgia thing, hardly legitimate.

[Miracles]

This is an adaptation of Toriyama's vague outlines, he makes the basis but its the job of Toyotaro and Toei to make it into an engaging narrative and they both fail. The anime is a hot mess of sometimes good ideas and sometimes bad ones being juggled by a writing staff that's either too rushed or incompetent to make it work. Toyotaro is more functional in this regard but he fails to engage on any level. There's nothing necessarily bad about the manga but there's nothing exceptional: its just an average thing that exists.

But what examples do you have that they don't reach the audience? Toriyama writes the outline of the "entire plot." The staff does vague add on's; yes, it is their job to portray the emotion and feeling of Toriyama's story with the animation. Even with Toyotaro, Toriyama gives him an outline he is allowed to expand it but he does not deviate from Toriyama's story. Toriyama even checks the storyboard of Toyotaro too. Toyotaro is not doing his own thing here, blame cannot be on him but Toriyama who gives him the OK.

[HeroR]

Lots of people say they like it, but I haven't heard a good reason why, yet. I have a feeling it's just a nostalgia thing, hardly legitimate.

It's never good dismissing something someone likes as mere nostalgia.

Some like it for the action and fight scenes that uses real martial arts.

Some like it because they love Frieza.

Some love the characters interaction.

And many love all the above.

[Basako]

And I should care about Toriyama's opinion on this because....?
The art is fine and so was the scaling up until this chapter but just reading the manga as its own thing isn't satisfying at all. There's nothing to latch on to, the story doesn't engage you, the character stuff which is virtually non existent here fails to engage you. Its all functional I guess but that's all it is: functional. It kind of works but its so painfully average it elicits no response from the reader.

Don't care about Toriyama's opinion if you don't want to, but don't pretend is irrelevant, he is the original creator. The problem with the story is that we already know what is going to happen, but that's an out story factor. If we didn't know that Black has still another transformation (possibly), or that Zamasu was going to appear there too, which leads to the fusion, the sensations would have been different. Anyway, I enjoyed to see how Vegeta kicks Black's ass, he looks like he is having a good time in this fight against a double of Goku.

[ssj_duelist]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

May you explain how?

In the manga, Goku Black whoops Ss2 Trunks, who is stated to be as strong or stronger than ss3 Goku. Now ss2 Vegeta is kicking ss2 Black's ass.

Really poor writing

[Jinzoningen MULE]

In the manga, Goku Black whoops Ss2 Trunks, who is stated to be as strong or stronger than ss3 Goku. Now ss2 Vegeta is kicking ss2 Black's ass.

Really poor writing

There is literally no contradiction here.

Don't care about Toriyama's opinion if you don't want to, but don't pretend is irrelevant, he is the original creator.

He's only as relevant as you want him to be. It's an entirely subjective matter.

[ekrolo2]

Don't care about Toriyama's opinion if you don't want to, but don't pretend is irrelevant, he is the original creator. The problem with the story is that we already know what is going to happen, but that's an out story factor. If we didn't know that Black has still another transformation (possibly), or that Zamasu was going to appear there too, which leads to the fusion, the sensations would have been different. Anyway, I enjoyed to see how Vegeta kicks Black's ass, he looks like he is having a good time in this fight against a double of Goku.

His opinion on it is irrelevant to my enjoyment of the story. And that whole "we know what will happen" thing is a fallacy as a great many series, Dragon Ball very much included, always have large groups of people who watch the anime or read the manga first and vice versa then proceed to watch the other version and can enjoy both equally just fine.

But what examples do you have that they don't reach the audience? Toriyama writes the outline of the "entire plot." The staff does vague add on's; yes, it is their job to portray the emotion and feeling of Toriyama's story with the animation. Even with Toyotaro, Toriyama gives him an outline he is allowed to expand it but he does not deviate from Toriyama's story. Toriyama even checks the storyboard of Toyotaro too. Toyotaro is not doing his own thing here, blame cannot be on him but Toriyama who gives him the OK.

For me, the revelation of Black is far inferior to the anime, there its used to get both Goku and the audience invested by showing us how Goku lost his body and had his family murdered. In the manga? Everyone has a single meeting on his identity and correctly deduce it immediately, both are functional, Black's moronic time travel mechanics notwithstanding but one engages the reader. The mystery surrounding Black is half the reason you'd even want to pay attention to the story and that intrigue & mystery is entirely gone thanks to that single meeting in the anime.

Another is Future Trunks having PTSD, in the manga? There's nothing going on with him character wise at all, in the anime? He's got plenty and even though episode 67 pays that off with about as much grace as a brain dead monkey trying to juggle flaming chainsaws, it remains an interesting part that makes the characters seem like real people instead of action figures waiting for the next fight to happen.

Vegeta training Trunks, it's totally half-assed in both mediums but having an episode dedicated to it is better than the one panel from the manga.

Zamasu's progress is better to. By his first appearance he's already completely decided mortals must be exterminated, the anime has some progress to it before he goes bad.

[Basako]

His opinion on it is irrelevant to my enjoyment of the story. And that whole "we know what will happen" thing is a fallacy as a great many series, Dragon Ball very much included, always have large groups of people who watch the anime or read the manga first and vice versa then proceed to watch the other version and can enjoy both equally just fine.

Well, I'm still enjoying the manga, more than the anime, but the element of surprise has been mostly taken out, that's not a fallacy at all. I'd enjoy it more if it was ahead.

[Miracles]

Don't care about Toriyama's opinion if you don't want to, but don't pretend is irrelevant, he is the original creator. The problem with the story is that we already know what is going to happen, but that's an out story factor. If we didn't know that Black has still another transformation (possibly), or that Zamasu was going to appear there too, which leads to the fusion, the sensations would have been different. Anyway, I enjoyed to see how Vegeta kicks Black's ass, he looks like he is having a good time in this fight against a double of Goku.

His opinion on it is irrelevant to my enjoyment of the story. And that whole "we know what will happen" thing is a fallacy as a great many series, Dragon Ball very much included, always have large groups of people who watch the anime or read the manga first and vice versa then proceed to watch the other version and can enjoy both equally just fine.

But what examples do you have that they don't reach the audience? Toriyama writes the outline of the "entire plot." The staff does vague add on's; yes, it is their job to portray the emotion and feeling of Toriyama's story with the animation. Even with Toyotaro, Toriyama gives him an outline he is allowed to expand it but he does not deviate from Toriyama's story. Toriyama even checks the storyboard of Toyotaro too. Toyotaro is not doing his own thing here, blame cannot be on him but Toriyama who gives him the OK.

For me, the revelation of Black is far inferior to the anime, there its used to get both Goku and the audience invested by showing us how Goku lost his body and had his family murdered. In the manga? Everyone has a single meeting on his identity and correctly deduce it immediately, both are functional, Black's moronic time travel mechanics notwithstanding but one engages the reader. The mystery surrounding Black is half the reason you'd even want to pay attention to the story and that intrigue & mystery is entirely gone thanks to that single meeting in the anime.

Another is Future Trunks having PTSD, in the manga? There's nothing going on with him character wise at all, in the anime? He's got plenty and even though episode 67 pays that off with about as much grace as a brain dead monkey trying to juggle flaming chainsaws, it remains an interesting part that makes the characters seem like real people instead of action figures waiting for the next fight to happen.

Vegeta training Trunks, it's totally half-assed in both mediums but having an episode dedicated to it is better than the one panel from the manga.

Zamasu's progress is better to. By his first appearance he's already completely decided mortals must be exterminated, the anime has some progress to it before he goes bad.

You are talking about developments that the manga has even yet to get to and comparing it with the finished product of the anime. Black and Zamasu revealed how they got Goku's body. The meetings they had were nothing more than theories portrayed by Toriyama. It still had the audience guessing the revelation of Black until Black/Zamasu revealed it themselves. The manga ain't even close to that fight/reveal.

Trunks is the same in manga and anime. He wants to protect his world and explains/thinks how he goes about doing so. When he gave us info in how he defeated babidi. which led up to why kai's and gods are a pair. His battles with Black etc. The few panels that show the mental anguish of his world being decimated by Black. Trunks is shown worried and angry in the manga like anime too. It just isn't beaten to death or forced in both mediums. Which is right. Zamasu is portrayed the same, just seems quicker cause it is manga. It doesn't take so many episodes to build up in a monthly chapter release.

[ekrolo2]

You are talking about developments that the manga has even yet to get to and comparing it with the finished product of the anime. Black and Zamasu revealed how they got Goku's body. The meetings they had were nothing more than theories portrayed by Toriyama. It still had the audience guessing the revelation of Black until Black/Zamasu revealed it themselves. The anime ain't even close to that fight.

Trunks is the same in manga and anime. He wants to protect his world and explains/thinks how he goes about doing so. When he gave us info in how he defeated babidi. which led up to why kai's and gods are a pair. The few panels that show the mental anguish of his world being decimated by Black. Trunks is shown worried and angry in the manga like anime too. It just isn't beaten to death or forced in both mediums. Which is right. Zamasu is portrayed the same, just seems quicker cause it is manga. It doesn't take so many episodes to build up.

How is me talking about Black's mystery going ahead of the manga and anime? They've both resolved these threads and it is more than fair to judge them and the manga is lacking, the manga one just has everyone figure it out immediately while the anime has them guess, get it wrong and revealed in a pretty shocking manner to the characters and the audience. That's a lot more fun than everyone basically sitting down one time, practically reading the real world script and figuring it out that way.

Trunks' anguish is barely present in the manga, the show emphasizes this quite a bit while the manga has what, a couple panels at most? Both work, one is infinitely more interesting and satisfying to watch. Same thing with Zamasu, its functional in both but the anime does it better because there's a gradual build up to it that's cool to watch. Hence why these similarities are engaging in one medium and a lot less so in another.

[Doctor.]

There is literally no contradiction here.

There's only no contradiction if you choose to believe that Vegeta is over 100x stronger than Goku at this point, when the two have constantly been portrayed as equals in the manga.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

There is literally no contradiction here.

There's only no contradiction if you choose to believe that Vegeta is over 100x stronger than Goku at this point, when the two have constantly been portrayed as equals in the manga.

Did I miss something, because that hasn't been made clear to me. Why do I have to make that assumption?

[GTx10]

I disagree, I wish they used the manga as a base storyboard for the fights in the anime, and for the rest too. And the art, well, looks amazing to me. I enjoy it a lot, I will buy the manga as soon as it gets released in here and put it right beside Toriyama's DB mangas. By the way, Toriyama has said he is happy with Toyotaro's job many times, not only that, he supervises it.

And I should care about Toriyama's opinion on this because....?
The art is fine and so was the scaling up until this chapter but just reading the manga as its own thing isn't satisfying at all. There's nothing to latch on to, the story doesn't engage you, the character stuff which is virtually non existent here fails to engage you. Its all functional I guess but that's all it is: functional. It kind of works but its so painfully average it elicits no response from the reader.

This is Toriyama's work. Toyotaro follows his outline and Toriyama believes Toyotaro is the closest to mimic his style. Rightfully so.
The art is good, it has appeal, the story pretty much follows anime story. Got any examples?

This is an adaptation of Toriyama's vague outlines, he makes the basis but its the job of Toyotaro and Toei to make it into an engaging narrative and they both fail. The anime is a hot mess of sometimes good ideas and sometimes bad ones being juggled by a writing staff that's either too rushed or incompetent to make it work. Toyotaro is more functional in this regard but he fails to engage on any level. There's nothing necessarily bad about the manga but there's nothing exceptional: its just an average thing that exists.

I disagree. Goku Black is a engaging and entertaining character within the Anime. The Manga has barely spent any time on him and he suffers because of it. The whole Goku Black arc has some bumping roads here and there but is overall superior to the Manga version in my opinion. For me, Anime Goku Black is THE Goku Black.
The Manga is just "light" promotion in my eyes.

[Basako]

I disagree. Goku Black is a engaging and entertaining character within the Anime. The Manga has barely spent any time on him and he suffers because of it. The whole Goku Black arc has some bumping roads here and there but is overall superior to the Manga version in my opinion. For me, Anime Goku Black is THE Goku Black.
The Manga is just "light" promotion in my eyes.

Black's presentation in Trunks's timeline in the manga was amazing, how he was following Trunks and finally revealling his face. Then the fight, how he was going to kill Trunks with his own sword, but he escapes with a nice move. Then the Goku's timeline Zamasu, the only thing is that he didn't have the fight against Goku and his motivation to take his body was lower, but it was for the better, because the time paradox was avoided. And he had development anyway, we saw him fight Kibito and being stopped, knowing about Goku and getting upset about mortals being that strong, the visit to Babari's future and killing a guy there, a long conversation with his master, studying Goku in Godtube, questioning Zuno and in this new chapter even more in both timelines. Black has had development in the manga and wait for more yet.