Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Doctor.]

Can't say I agree. I don't think Dragon Ball needs a relatable villain. Would it be nice, sure. But I don't think it's necessary.

After God knows how many pure evil-type villains, I can't be the only one who's getting sick of them. Zamasu was a nice change of pace, but he too was a bit wasted.

[HeroR]

Can't say I agree. I don't think Dragon Ball needs a relatable villain. Would it be nice, sure. But I don't think it's necessary.

After God knows how many pure evil-type villains, I can't be the only one who's getting sick of them. Zamasu was a nice change of pace, but he too was a bit wasted.

Zamasu was a good mixed for me since he had good reasons to hate mortals, but he was a hypocrite and became just as monasteries as the mortals he despised. He's basically Light from Death Note, except the narrative doesn't pretend that he's anything but a selfish asshole, which I liked because I hate when this archetype is given the benefit of the doubt despite all the crap they pull. It's also a problem I have with Naruto when they tried to make every villain sympathetic. After a while it becomes, no this person is full of crap and needs to be called out on it.

Also, none of the heroes would see a villain like Raichi in a sympathetic light since they will just see him as being stuck in the past and taken his anger out on the Saiyans who had nothing to do with the genocide of his race. To make a sympathetic villain work, the heroes themselves have to understand the villain. If they blow them off, that plot line isn't going anywhere.

We also haven't had a pure evil villain in Dragon Ball in years. All the villains have been like Beerus or Champa who are against the heroes for their own reasons, but are not inherently evil. Even the upcoming multiverse tournament with the universes on the line don't present the people running it as being evil. Just apathetic towards the lives of mortals. The only pure evil recent villain was Freeza and even then, his organization is presented as nobel demons who only want to go back to the glory days and didn't even want to fight Goku and the others.

[Regarder]

If they blow them off, that plot line isn't going anywhere.

That would be funny in itself.

[Fionordequester]

. It's also a problem I have with Naruto when they tried to make every villain sympathetic. After a while it becomes, no this person is full of crap and needs to be called out on it.

I may not know Naruto as well as I should; I only experienced Shippuden through the Ultimate Ninja Storm video games. But, just from what I saw from those; most of them ARE called on their nonsense. Sasuke is every bit as awful as people say he is, and Itachi ends up being a bit TOO sympathetic for someone who was willing to kill everyone but his brother (I don't care if it was an order; that's still pretty sociopathic for someone to be able to just do that)...

But guys like Pain and Madara WERE actually called on their nonsense. Naruto had an extremely hard time forgiving Pain for everything he had done, and only did so because he wanted to stop the cycle of revenge and violence that Pain was always complaining about. And many characters also called Madara on his unwillingness to accept reality, as well as how violent he was; Kakashi was doing everything he could to KILL the guy! And even when Naruto talked him down, he wasn't telling him that he understood why he was e way he was, and that he would give him all the hugs he needed; he was telling him to stop pretending he was the messiah or something, and start accepting that he was a vulnerable human being like everyone else.

So what if neither of them got the consequences they "deserved"? You always want to de-escalate a conflict as peacefully as you can, so if you see an opportunity to talk a villain into being a good guy, well; why not take it?

[jcogginsa]

I may not know Naruto as well as I should; I only experienced Shippuden through the Ultimate Ninja Storm video games. But, just from what I saw from those; most of them ARE called on their nonsense. Sasuke is every bit as awful as people say he is, and Itachi ends up being a bit TOO sympathetic for someone who was willing to kill everyone but his brother (I don't care if it was an order; that's still pretty sociopathic for someone to be able to just do that)...

Morally speaking, Sasuke isn't actually that bad. Most of his big evil moments are threats, ones that aren't ever born out. The only two really evil actions he takes are capturing Bee (Which turned out to not harm anyone cause Bee escaped) and killing some Samurai. And in that case, there are mitigating factors involved. He's very similar to Piccolo Jr. He's evil, but doesn't do that many explicitly evil things and winds up turning good

[Draconic]

A villain like Raichi would be cool and I think it could give the non-Saiyans something to do. Having him unwilling to hurt/kill anybody except the Saiyans (other than maybe self defense) would open the door to the humans or Piccolo to try and find a way to save their friends, while the Saiyans are getting hunted one by one.

[HeroR]

. It's also a problem I have with Naruto when they tried to make every villain sympathetic. After a while it becomes, no this person is full of crap and needs to be called out on it.

I may not know Naruto as well as I should; I only experienced Shippuden through the Ultimate Ninja Storm video games. But, just from what I saw from those; most of them ARE called on their nonsense. Sasuke is every bit as awful as people say he is, and Itachi ends up being a bit TOO sympathetic for someone who was willing to kill everyone but his brother (I don't care if it was an order; that's still pretty sociopathic for someone to be able to just do that)...

But guys like Pain and Madara WERE actually called on their nonsense. Naruto had an extremely hard time forgiving Pain for everything he had done, and only did so because he wanted to stop the cycle of revenge and violence that Pain was always complaining about. And many characters also called Madara on his unwillingness to accept reality, as well as how violent he was; Kakashi was doing everything he could to KILL the guy! And even when Naruto talked him down, he wasn't telling him that he understood why he was e way he was, and that he would give him all the hugs he needed; he was telling him to stop pretending he was the messiah or something, and start accepting that he was a vulnerable human being like everyone else.

So what if neither of them got the consequences they "deserved"? You always want to de-escalate a conflict as peacefully as you can, so if you see an opportunity to talk a villain into being a good guy, well; why not take it?

Pain was called out, but the narrative was also set up that Naruto should forgive Pain and honestly, Pain had good reasons for acting the way he did. I have no problem with Pain and think he's an example of a good sympathetic character who you may not agree with, but you still understand.

Madara was just a hate sink. Only one person actually liked him. The narrative tried to make him sympathetic with him being manipulated, but no one in the series bought that, not even his own allies.

I am actually referring to people like Toby and Orochimaru who are painted sympathetically, despite all the absolute BS they pulled. Orochimaru is the most annoying since he's still alive years later doing his experiences and Toby died with Naruto proclaiming him as cool. This is despite him being responsible for most of the events in the series that led to hundreds of deaths, all because his love interest died.

Finally, there is also this underline theme that it wasn't all the Uchiha Clan's fault for being corrupted and prone to evil. That they were cursed by their eyes, their intense love, and being manipulated by Kaguya. Which comes off as whitewashing.

[emperior]

I don't know how much this has been discussed, but am I the only one who finds DBM's Kakarot very poorly done? Why would he get crazy and shit while being on Earth while other Saiyans sent to do the same mission on other planets wouldn't? Honestly it would have been good to just see how he killed all the earthlings without all the bullshit they shoved in (such as him befriending Krillin with no reason)

[HeroR]

I don't know how much this has been discussed, but am I the only one who finds DBM's Kakarot very poorly done? Why would he get crazy and shit while being on Earth while other Saiyans sent to do the same mission on other planets wouldn't? Honestly it would have been good to just see how he killed all the earthlings without all the bullshit they shoved in (such as him befriending Krillin with no reason)

I personally like him befriending Krillin, since it shows that Kakarot could have become a good person like Goku if he wasn't brainwash by his mother. Although, I do agree that Kakarot being utterly mental makes no sense. Hindsight is 20/20, but if they wanted to make an insane Kakarot, they should have gone the Goku Black route who is clearly unstable, but hides it under a mask of politeness and his calm mannerisms.

[Gog]

I don't know how much this has been discussed, but am I the only one who finds DBM's Kakarot very poorly done? Why would he get crazy and shit while being on Earth while other Saiyans sent to do the same mission on other planets wouldn't? Honestly it would have been good to just see how he killed all the earthlings without all the bullshit they shoved in (such as him befriending Krillin with no reason)

I find him poorly done, but not for the same reasons, Kakarot shouldn't have actually have amounted to much, as in either Master Roshi, Piccolo, General blue, Tao pai pai, Korin, Yajirobe, and KAMI should have easily ripped him to pieces.

In fact Universe 13 shouldn't exist as of whole

[emperior]

I don't know how much this has been discussed, but am I the only one who finds DBM's Kakarot very poorly done? Why would he get crazy and shit while being on Earth while other Saiyans sent to do the same mission on other planets wouldn't? Honestly it would have been good to just see how he killed all the earthlings without all the bullshit they shoved in (such as him befriending Krillin with no reason)

I find him poorly done, but not for the same reasons, Kakarot shouldn't have actually have amounted to much, as in either Master Roshi, Piccolo, General blue, Tao pai pai, Korin, Yajirobe, and KAMI should have easily ripped him to pieces.


In fact Universe 13 shouldn't exist as of whole

It would have been cool to see Kakarot manage to find a way to improve and beat even tough foes like Roshi and Tao Pai Pai and Kami too if he tried to stop him

[FoolsGil]

Earth U13, as well as Kakarot isn't well developed true. The plan was Kakarot to be a foil to U18 Goku and that's it.

Now yes, Goku was sent to Earth as a baby because it's a weak planet, but define weak? King Piccolo could have murdered Great Ape Goku from the beginning of the series. And it seems to me that months pass before the moon ever sprouts up, and then Goku's back to his normal self with plenty of martial artists that could defeat him. Forget Master Roshi, an untrained Goku losing to Bacterian could be a thing. Then there is the World Army. And the Red Ribbon Army. And Master Roshi. And Tao Pie Pie. And Kami. Could Goku, or Kakarot, really have wiped out an entire planet with this much adversity?

See, it shouldn't have been just "Goku doesn't hit his head." and wham bam, move on to the next universe. Kakarot would need a foil for all of Goku's power ups as wellFor example, while U18 Goku trained with Master Roshi, U13 Kakarot formed a pact with a demon. U18 Goku went on to train with Korin. U13 Kakarot was captured by the RR and mindcontrolled into a weapon for a time. In U18 Daimao was released to help Pilaf enslave the world. In U13 Daimao was released in desperation to save the world. In U18 it was a super special water that gave Goku the strength to defeat Piccolo. In U13, Kakarot has his very first zenkai, giving him the strength to destroy Piccolo.

At least for me, this is how U13 could have been done to be believable.

[rereboy]

The saiyans didn't send off the weak babies because they knew they would surely conquer the planet in which they landed. They sent them off because they were weak and, even though the planet to which they were sent was within their potential to conquer, if they failed and were killed no great loss would come from that because they were weak to begin with. And if they succeeded, they would have provided a great service to the saiyan race and would deserve at least some respect even though they were weak.

Kakarotto from universe 13 isn't properly explained. There are several possibilities, though. For example, Kakarotto's brainwashing could have suffered some malfunctioning. Kakarotto doesn't function well with brainwashing, brainwashed saiyans become, most of a time, more or less deranged, or Kakarotto became that way because he spent way longer than he was supposed to without other saiyans to pick him up. DBM could go with any of these, but so far it hasn't really explained it.

As for Kakarotto beating everyone on Earth, that's all about the circumstances... Even the original story is just one giant set of circumstances coming together in a certain unique, perfect way, with everything probably becoming much different with minimal changes.

[HeroR]

I don't know how much this has been discussed, but am I the only one who finds DBM's Kakarot very poorly done? Why would he get crazy and shit while being on Earth while other Saiyans sent to do the same mission on other planets wouldn't? Honestly it would have been good to just see how he killed all the earthlings without all the bullshit they shoved in (such as him befriending Krillin with no reason)

I find him poorly done, but not for the same reasons, Kakarot shouldn't have actually have amounted to much, as in either Master Roshi, Piccolo, General blue, Tao pai pai, Korin, Yajirobe, and KAMI should have easily ripped him to pieces.

In fact Universe 13 shouldn't exist as of whole

Kakarot can easily train and used his Great Ape form when he runs into people stronger than him. You can't really assumed that Kakarot was doomed from get go based on events you can only guess. Maybe Kakarot ran into those powerful people, was nearly killed, but he survived, got stronger from the near death experience, came back and killed them. That's basically what Goku did. King Piccolo isn't a factor because he was only unsealed because Goku kept stopping Pilaf's plan.

[FoolsGil]

Kakarot can easily train and used his Great Ape form when he runs into people stronger than him. You can't really assumed that Kakarot was doomed from get go based on events you can only guess. Maybe Kakarot ran into those powerful people, was nearly killed, but he survived, got stronger from the near death experience, came back and killed them. That's basically what Goku did. King Piccolo isn't a factor because he was only unsealed because Goku kept stopping Pilaf's plan.

Why would Kakarot's training regimen be better than Master Roshi's or Korin's? Months pass without a full moon, what if he's caught on a day without one, or at worst, someone figures out that the moon's the problem and blows it up? And in all the fights Goku and Vegeta were in, the only time they ever ran away from a fight was against Kid Buu. Win or lose, Kakarot is most likely not to run from a fight, and even if he did, would that mean he would win next time? Survivors would pass the information to everyone. Now Kakarot's got armies and more martial artists after him. It's not that simple.

[HeroR]

Kakarot can easily train and used his Great Ape form when he runs into people stronger than him. You can't really assumed that Kakarot was doomed from get go based on events you can only guess. Maybe Kakarot ran into those powerful people, was nearly killed, but he survived, got stronger from the near death experience, came back and killed them. That's basically what Goku did. King Piccolo isn't a factor because he was only unsealed because Goku kept stopping Pilaf's plan.

Why would Kakarot's training regimen be better than Master Roshi's or Korin's? Months pass without a full moon, what if he's caught on a day without one, or at worst, someone figures out that the moon's the problem and blows it up? And in all the fights Goku and Vegeta were in, the only time they ever ran away from a fight was against Kid Buu. Win or lose, Kakarot is most likely not to run from a fight, and even if he did, would that mean he would win next time? Survivors would pass the information to everyone. Now Kakarot's got armies and more martial artists after him. It's not that simple.

Why do you think training with Roshi is the only way for Kakarot to get stronger? Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz didn't train with Roshi. They got into life and death battles, survived, and got stronger.

Goku nearly died several times despite all his training and he was survived because the plot demanded. His heart randomly restarted after King Piccolo checked his pulse. So why can't Kakarot by that same logic have dumb luck. Because he's a villain?

Also, what army? Without Goku around most of the cast wouldn't even meet each other to pass on information.

[FoolsGil]

Why do you think training with Roshi is the only way for Kakarot to get stronger? Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz didn't train with Roshi. They got into life and death battles, survived, and got stronger.

Training is more than developing a fighting style. It's pushing your limits. Would a Saiyan child whose order to wipe out a planet even consider running up and down a mountain to get faster or pushing giant boulders for strength every day to push, meet and surpass his limits for months at a time to get stronger? No he wouldn't. So he's not going to get stronger. The Three amigos had to have trained. You don't just get stronger just because. And if you're thinking Zenkais, Zenkais are supposed to happen when the Saiyan is on death's door and he survives. If he's strong enough to escape a stronger opponent, Kakarot isn't going to Zenkai. He would have to be crippled, and his opponent would have to leave him, and he would have to undergo weeks to months of healing if he doesn't die right there...and even if that happens for Kakarot once, what would make you think the next opponent stronger than him would also leave Kakarot near death?

Goku nearly died several times despite all his training and he was survived because the plot demanded. His heart randomly restarted after King Piccolo checked his pulse. So why can't Kakarot by that same logic have dumb luck. Because he's a villain?

No, because as a villain, he would have more dumb lucks to win, compared to as a hero. That's why there's an issue. Keep in mind I posted my thoughts on how U13 Kakarot could work without the story throwing idiot balls at the heroes and having Kakarot escape to fight another day until he can thrash them all.

Also, what army? Without Goku around most of the cast wouldn't even meet each other to pass on information.

If Kakarot is wiping out cities after cities, the world is going to go on alert. If he meets a foe that he runs away from, that survivor is going to pass on that information of who Kakarot is and what he looks like to the authorities. The World Army would likely get involved with hunting him down after that.

[HeroR]

Why do you think training with Roshi is the only way for Kakarot to get stronger? Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz didn't train with Roshi. They got into life and death battles, survived, and got stronger.

Training is more than developing a fighting style. It's pushing your limits. Would a Saiyan child whose order to wipe out a planet even consider running up and down a mountain to get faster or pushing giant boulders for strength every day to push, meet and surpass his limits for months at a time to get stronger? No he wouldn't. So he's not going to get stronger. The Three amigos had to have trained. You don't just get stronger just because. And if you're thinking Zenkais, Zenkais are supposed to happen when the Saiyan is on death's door and he survives. If he's strong enough to escape a stronger opponent, Kakarot isn't going to Zenkai. He would have to be crippled, and his opponent would have to leave him, and he would have to undergo weeks to months of healing if he doesn't die right there...and even if that happens for Kakarot once, what would make you think the next opponent stronger than him would also leave Kakarot near death?

Goku nearly died several times despite all his training and he was survived because the plot demanded. His heart randomly restarted after King Piccolo checked his pulse. So why can't Kakarot by that same logic have dumb luck. Because he's a villain?

No, because as a villain, he would have more dumb lucks to win, compared to as a hero. That's why there's an issue. Keep in mind I posted my thoughts on how U13 Kakarot could work without the story throwing idiot balls at the heroes and having Kakarot escape to fight another day until he can thrash them all.

Also, what army? Without Goku around most of the cast wouldn't even meet each other to pass on information.

If Kakarot is wiping out cities after cities, the world is going to go on alert. If he meets a foe that he runs away from, that survivor is going to pass on that information of who Kakarot is and what he looks like to the authorities. The World Army would likely get involved with hunting him down after that.

The other Saiyans did the same thing without any formal training outside of not dying and fighting strong people. We don't know what Kakarot's programing was. Maybe he was program to run and wait for the moon if things got hairy. Maybe he would have spent several years in the mountains growing his power and observing the humans before attacking. If we used filler, he could have created his own moon using his space ship. The fact is, we don't know a thing about how the Saiyans programmed their children and it's assumption that Kakarot wouldn't run and would just keep fighting until the bitter end.

What makes you think the world army could even tickle Kakarot? And that is assuming if Kakarot left any survivors who can identify what he looks like.

[FoolsGil]

What makes you think the world army could even tickle Kakarot?

1) Because Goku has been damaged before with standard weaponry, along with battle jackets, and it wasn't until he's trained with Master Roshi and Korin that he had the strength and stamina to wipe out an army. Even if you don't believe training is necessary, he would still have to gain enough strength and stamina to do so, and that's going to take time to develop. Time, that he may not have if he reveals himself to the world early.

And that is assuming if Kakarot left any survivors who can identify what he looks like.

Actually the other way around. It's assumming that Kakarot bit more off than he could chew against a martial artist, and they were unable to keep him from escaping.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

Welp, next special chapter has been announced for January 20th, and it's one I've been really looking forward to; the continuation of U8's backstory. I'm guessing the ultimate fate of that Universe's Z-Warriors will be shown here. It's hard to predict what will happen next, seeing as Freeza doesn't seem to recognize Goku during the tournamanent.