Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[FoolsGil]

The art has to be the best I've seen from DBM, no disrespect to Asura, since his art is superb as well.

What? I thought Asura was a she

a year or so ago an image was posted of him here. He's a man.

[rereboy]

It doesn't actually make my blood boil, I was using a term, to describe my feelings.

You were going out of your way to exaggerate your criticism, or, in other words, to bash it. Again.

[Gog]

It doesn't actually make my blood boil, I was using a term, to describe my feelings.

You were going out of your way to exaggerate your criticism, or, in other words, to bash it. Again.

I bash, because I love.

[coola]

[Gog]

It seems that best girl has finally shown himself.

[mfwlegend3]

Re-read past chapters. I might be one of the very few who really likes Bra.

[Noah]

Wow, that last page was nice! Nice how Goku defends himself from Recoome attack

[Gog]

Re-read past chapters. I might be one of the very few who really likes Bra.

Your prehaps, the first, second, third, fourth! Person who somehow managed to enjoy Bra's character! , *grabs Mfwlegend3's neck, and slams him against a wall. "I need to know how you can like such a poorly made, and constructed character" Gog demanded

[mfwlegend3]

"I need to know how you can like such a poorly made, and constructed character" Gog demanded

I remind myself that it's a web comic made by some fans and that prevents me from holding it to the same standard as I would an actual official series. I'm attracted to her attitude and appearance and I also like how she's unable to properly control her power which leads to her unintentionally harming her loved ones (Vegetto and Gohan during that one chapter awhile back).

[Gog]

"I need to know how you can like such a poorly made, and constructed character" Gog demanded

I remind myself that it's a web comic made by some fans and that prevents me from holding it to the same standard as I would an actual official series. I'm attracted to her attitude and appearance and I also like how she's unable to properly control her power which leads to her unintentionally harming her loved ones (Vegetto and Gohan during that one chapter awhile back).

Except for the fact that holding a lower standard for a fan works is such a shitty and poor excuse. Especially considering the fact that I've read fan works that are leaps and bounds better than the official product, so that excuse will absolutely not hold in any circumstance. And it's completely fine to like her looks and personality, as baffling as it is to me. So long as you can admit that whatever Slagir intended with her completely, and utterly failed.

[rereboy]

Except for the fact that holding a lower standard for a fan works is such a shitty and poor excuse.

If it is, then I'm sure that it makes perfect sense to expect and demand that an amateur football player performs and does the same stuff as a professional one... In fact, why don't you start playing a sport once or twice a week or some other activity? Just let us know when you do so that everyone can watch you and demand from you a professional performance and criticize you accordingly. I mean, it's not like there's any difference between an amateur and a professional, right...?

Professionals and amateurs exist in different worlds that have very different conditions. That's a fact. Trying to argue that it's "shitty" to keep that in mind in our opinions is ridiculous.

Especially considering the fact that I've read fan works that are leaps and bounds better than the official product, so that excuse will absolutely not hold in any circumstance.

Some amateur work being better than some official work (in your opinion) doesn't change the fact that they are in different worlds and have very different conditions.

If an amateur work manages to be better than some official work, then it means that it achieved a level of quality that surpasses the confines of its own world despite the limitations of that world compared to the professional one, and thus it deserves all the praise... but it doesn't mean that suddenly we should demand of all amateur work what we demand from professional work since no facts have actually changed regarding the realities of both worlds.

And it's completely fine to like her looks and personality, as baffling as it is to me. So long as you can admit that whatever Slagir intended with her completely, and utterly failed.

If someone thinks that Salagir actually didn't intend for her to be that likeable, that Salagir actually intended her to be a a very flawed character, a brat that is hard to be liked, he's obviously wrong, right?

[Gog]

If it is, then I'm sure that it makes perfect sense to expect and demand that an amateur football player performs and does the same stuff as a professional one... In fact, why don't you start playing a sport once or twice a week or some other activity? Just let us know when you do so that everyone can watch you and demand from you a professional performance and criticize you accordingly. I mean, it's not like there's any difference between an amateur and a professional, right...?

But if that amateur foot ball player is as good, or even considered to be better than a professional player then we have to rank him professionally. You mean a hobby, and besides I don't even enjoy foot ball that much.*Drinks the juice-juice*. If your going to argue with me then at least, at the very least get a proper metaphor for the discussion at hand as Dragon Ball Multiverse is more than that. It's a web comic, a fully fleshed out web comic that's considered to be as good as Dragon Ball Super and I'll treat it as such. So now I'm not actually allowed to criticize Dragon Ball Multiverse? Even with its innumerable flaws? Hell you probably don't even mean that.

Professionals and amateurs exist in different worlds that have very different conditions. That's a fact. Trying to argue that it's "shitty" to keep that in mind in our opinions is ridiculous.

So I'm not allowed to argue that Savior Of Demons is better than Dragon Ball Super, and Dragon Ball because they have different conditions? That's an opinion, one that you haven't being backing up, oh right you had a metaphor.

Some amateur work being better than some official work (in your opinion) doesn't change the fact that they are in different worlds and have very different conditions.

So what I'm not allowed to actually criticize them, then? If my favorite fan fiction included rape would you be angry about that and criticize it for including rape? Is nobody allowed to criticize that scene for being insensitive then?

If an amateur work manages to be better than some official work, then it means that it achieved a level of quality that surpasses the confines of its own world despite the limitations of that world compared to the professional one, and thus it deserves all the praise... but it doesn't mean that suddenly we should demand of all amateur work what we demand from professional work since no facts have actually changed regarding the realities of both worlds.

You mean the level of quality in your imagination-shun-shun-shun? Because that's what you seem to be implying here. So you mean that I should be heaping praise, after praise at Dragon Ball Multiverse for being almost like an official work? So we should ignore all of it's flaws, we should ignore all of it's asinine decisions because it's nearly as good as an official work. I'm not judging it like an official product I'm judging it on it's own merits, and Dragon Ball Multiverse is simply a painfully, mind numbing mediocre work that just had the luck to have great art, Zen Buu and Raichi-Sempai

If someone thinks that Salagir actually didn't intend for her to be that likeable, that Salagir actually intended her to be a a very flawed character, a brat that is hard to be liked, he's obviously wrong, right?

Eh he can believe that, but if you actually used the skill called, reading comprehension and actually go and read Bra's scenes. I'd say that she's meant to be an unlikable character that you route for like Vegeta, which is primarily how Slagir tries to defend her. And that's how he hilariously messed up Bra's character.

[rereboy]

Added a spoiler for anyone who wants to skip my response to gog.

[spoiler]

But if that amateur foot ball player is as good, or even considered to be better than a professional player then we have to rank him professionally.

An amateur football player that is as good as a professional player deserves even more praise than the professional one because he had way less conditions to achieve that quality. More difficulty = more merit.

And obviously, if he is that good, there will probably be people interested in getting him into the professional world where he can benefit from the better conditions of the professional world and become even better. And once he gets that conditions, then he should be viewed and criticized as a professional player because now he has their conditions.

You mean a hobby, and besides I don't even enjoy foot ball that much.*Drinks the juice-juice*.

I suggested a sport or any other activity, not specifically football. Read what I write.

And all amateur activity is basically a hobby. Amateur work = limited time + limited conditions + zero or low pay ; hobby = limited time + limited conditions + zero or low pay.

If your going to argue with me then at least, at the very least get a proper metaphor for the discussion at hand as Dragon Ball Multiverse is more than that.

Any amateur activity is a proper comparison, whether it's football or anything else, because there's always severely limited conditions, time, resources and pay in any amateur activity compared to professional work.

It's a web comic, a fully fleshed out web comic

It's an amateur fan manga that, due to being an amateur work, has limited time and resources and thus has only released, in 9 years, around 1200 pages, and only managed to do so because it constantly changes and adds artists to work on multiple chapters at once and pump out special chapters (and even that is impressive for an fan manga). A weekly professional manga in 9 years would pump out around 7500 pages without changing artists or working in several chapters at once.

that's considered to be as good as Dragon Ball Super and I'll treat it as such.

Some random guys going overboard in their praise doesn't change the fact that it's amateur work and that that fact should be in our minds.

So now I'm not actually allowed to criticize Dragon Ball Multiverse? Even with its innumerable flaws? Hell you probably don't even mean that.

You are completely free to criticize it or anything else you want. Just like I'm free to criticize anything I want, including what you say. And if you are going to just bash it instead of just criticizing it and if you are going to argue that amateur work should be viewed in the same light as professional work, then you can be pretty sure than I'm going to criticize that.

So I'm not allowed to argue that Savior Of Demons is better than Dragon Ball Super, and Dragon Ball because they have different conditions? That's an opinion, one that you haven't being backing up, oh right you had a metaphor.

Taking in consideration the different realities of amateur work and professional work =/= being stopped from having an opinion.

So what I'm not allowed to actually criticize them, then?

Already answered that question.

If my favorite fan fiction included rape would you be angry about that and criticize it for including rape? Is nobody allowed to criticize that scene for being insensitive then?

First, that has literally nothing to do with what was being discussed. At all.

Second, I am not, nor have I been, angry.

Third, I wouldn't criticize or be opposed to any work that has complex situations like rape just because it has rape.

You mean the level of quality in your imagination-shun-shun-shun? Because that's what you seem to be implying here.

What...?

So you mean that I should be heaping praise, after praise at Dragon Ball Multiverse for being almost like an official work?

No. I think you, and everyone else, when analyzing any work, should always keep in mind if it's an amateur work or a professional because that greatly influences the conditions of the creators, and criticize it if you want, or praise it if you want, but also resist the temptation to exaggerate.

So we should ignore all of it's flaws, we should ignore all of it's asinine decisions because it's nearly as good as an official work.

Already answered above.

I'm not judging it like an official product I'm judging it on it's own merits, and Dragon Ball Multiverse is simply a painfully, mind numbing mediocre work that just had the luck to have great art, Zen Buu and Raichi-Sempai

You already stated that you'd be doing as if it was an official product because judging it differently is a "shitty excuse". Make up your mind. You are either criticizing it as if it was an official product or you are not.

Eh he can believe that, but if you actually used the skill called, reading comprehension and actually go and read Bra's scenes. I'd say that she's meant to be an unlikable character that you route for like Vegeta, which is primarily how Slagir tries to defend her. And that's how he hilariously messed up Bra's character.

For someone who constantly talks about opinion, you seem rather unwilling to accept that others might disagree with you on Bra and, as it was obvious, that was the point of my question.

Also, in this discussion and in others before it, you skipped over or did not understand a great deal of what I said to you, and it was necessary for me to point out to you what I had said... and yet you are talking about "reading comprehension"? Right... Let's not go there.[/spoiler]

[Gog]

I suggested a sport or any other activity, not specifically football. Read what I write.

And all amateur activity is basically a hobby. Amateur work = limited time + limited conditions + zero or low pay ; hobby = limited time + limited conditions + zero or low pay.

Yes, I am reading what your writing, but it's just not worth taking seriously. And the rest of the responses are just you repeating the same thing over and over again, besides the old 'what' and the old 'already answered that'. So I'm going to try my best to state this cleanly and plainly.

The plot, the characters, and the art are all universal, and this is how I grade things based on their merits. Because it does not matter if it's amateur or it's professional, which is another reason why your sports metaphor is complete and utter garbage in this discussion. It matters if it's good and that's all that matters in the end.

And the problem with Dragon Ball Multiverse is at the end of the day, it's a painfully mediocre story, with mediocre characters and great art. You do not need to be a 'professional' to write something good. Sure it will certainly be easier for you to be a professional. But at the end of the day that does not determine whenever or not Dragon Ball Multiverse is good or not.

Which is why I'm comparing it to Dragon Ball Super and stating that Super is the superior piece of fictional media. Because Super is just the better piece of fictional media in my opinion.
Because the characters are superior, the plot is superior, the art in Multiverse may be superior but art is the inferior of the two. And you don't need to be amateur to be better than professional, as plot, characters and art are something that everyone can do.

For someone who constantly talks about opinion, you seem rather unwilling to accept that others might disagree with you on Bra and, as it was obvious, that was the point of my question.

Also, in this discussion and in others before it, you skipped over or did not understand a great deal of what I said to you, and it was necessary for me to point out to you what I had said... and yet you are talking about "reading comprehension"? Right... Let's not go there.

Oh, boy, of boy, oh boy. Look's like Rereboy has missed the point again!

I understand his opinion, I understand that he enjoys Bra, I don't want him to stop liking Bra, as he's free to like what he likes.

Then we must be twins then, as you seem to be unable to accept a great deal of what I told you. Sure you didn't skip a single point of the discussion but that means nothing when I actually have to go and explain to you my point. You actually have no right to be talking about reading comprehension, and I won't bring this up again, because it would be hypocritical of you to debate me on not using your reading comprehension.

[rereboy]

[spoiler]

Yes, I am reading what your writing, but it's just not worth taking seriously.

Then, why didn't you notice that I suggested a sport or any activity, not just football specifically, to you, for example? And how do you expect people to take you seriously if you don't take people seriously? I can start not taking you seriously, but I would rather take you seriously.

And the rest of the responses are just you repeating the same thing over and over again, besides the old 'what' and the old 'already answered that'. So I'm going to try my best to state this cleanly and plainly.

I repeated myself because my point is fairly simple, and everything I wanted to say comes down to it. So, the answers to the various things you said will almost always come down to the point I wanted to make.

The plot, the characters, and the art are all universal, and this is how I grade things based on their merits. Because it does not matter if it's amateur or it's professional, which is another reason why your sports metaphor is complete and utter garbage in this discussion. It matters if it's good and that's all that matters in the end.

Of course the most important thing is if we think it's bad or good. And you are right when you say that for it to be good or bad it doesn't really matter if its amateur or professional work because both amateur and professional works can be good or bad.

However, if we want to have a really consistent, contextualized critique of the work when we criticize it, we should take into account the relevant factors. Being an amateur work or professional work, due to the very different conditions provided to the authors, is a very relevant factor. Of course, nothing is forcing us to take it into account, but if we don't, I don't see how our criticism and opinion can be considered all that consistent and contextualized. And that's my point, in short. You are free to not take into account factors like that, but if you don't, how consistent and contextualized will your critique actually be?

And the problem with Dragon Ball Multiverse is at the end of the day, it's a painfully mediocre story, with mediocre characters and great art.

It's perfectly fine if you think that. DBM being good or not wasn't even my point.

You do not need to be a 'professional' to write something good.

Never said that it had to be professional to be good. Just that they have different conditions and that that's relevant.

Sure it will certainly be easier for you to be a professional. But at the end of the day that does not determine whenever or not Dragon Ball Multiverse is good or not.

Again, I never said that DBM had to be bad or good just because it was amateur. I just said that being amateur is relevant for its context and context is important for a consistent and contextualized critique.

Which is why I'm comparing it to Dragon Ball Super and stating that Super is the superior piece of fictional media. Because Super is just the better piece of fictional media in my opinion.
Because the characters are superior, the plot is superior, the art in Multiverse may be superior but art is the inferior of the two.

I didn't even mention Super.

And you don't need to be amateur to be better than professional, as plot, characters and art are something that everyone can do.

Everybody can do it but work needs time and other appropriate conditions and those are limited in the amateur world. Sure, they can be as good as professionals, but it will be much harder for them to be.

Oh, boy, of boy, oh boy. Look's like Rereboy has missed the point again!

I understand his opinion, I understand that he enjoys Bra, I don't want him to stop liking Bra, as he's free to like what he likes.

As long as he agrees with you that Salagir has failed, as you have stated... Your words: "So long as you can admit that whatever Slagir intended with her completely, and utterly failed." That's the issue and that was my point.

Then we must be twins then, as you seem to be unable to accept a great deal of what I told you.

Accepting =/= agreeing. I've always accepted what you are saying, I just disagreed and commented on it.

Sure you didn't skip a single point of the discussion but that means nothing when I actually have to go and explain to you my point.

There's nothing you have stated that I haven't understood the first time around.

You actually have no right to be talking about reading comprehension, and I won't bring this up again, because it would be hypocritical of you to debate me on not using your reading comprehension.

I think I have the "right" to respond to something that you brought up, especially when it can be taken as insulting. I wasn't the one to brought it up and I wouldn't even have touched the subject of reading comprehension if you hadn't brought it up. Don't bring up subjects like that or hypocrisy if you don't actually want people replying to that.[/spoiler]

[Gog]

Then, why didn't you notice that I suggested a sport or any activity, not just football specifically, to you, for example? And how do you expect people to take you seriously if you don't people seriously? I can start not taking you seriously, but I would rather take you seriously.

I do take you seriously, but not in this debate. Hell at the start of this debate I believed that what you meant was that Dragon Ball Multiverse shouldn't be criticized on merits of being a fan manga. Then I believed that you meant that Dragon Ball Multiverse cannot be compared to any official products because of the fact that it is a fan manga.

I literally have no idea on the point that your trying to make, as you never specified what was your point. Hell you've even agreed with me on certain points, so again what are you trying to argue here? That's the reason why I stated that I can't take you seriously in this debate, as I'm having trouble on finding out what is the point is that your trying to make here.

So until you specify. I just cannot argue on this point any longer.

As long as he agrees with you that Salagir has failed, as you have stated... Your words: "So long as you can admit that whatever Slagir intended with her completely, and utterly failed." That's the issue and that was my point.

Because that's the point, and yes I did frame it incorrectly. But here is the thing whatever Slagir originally intended with Bra has just gone done the drain. Your absolutely free to enjoy, you just have to realize that what he wanted with her originally failed. And it's fine to have an issue with this. That's what makes this whole debating thing fun.

There's nothing you have stated that I haven't understood the first time around.

But I haven't understood you because you aren't specifying on your point. That's my problem with this debate as a whole. What are you even arguing?

I think I have to the "right" to respond to something that you brought up, especially when it can be taken as insulting. I wasn't the one to brought it up and I wouldn't even have touched the subject of reading comprehension if you hadn't brought it up. Don't bring up subjects like that or hypocrisy if you don't actually want people replying to that.

Okay what I ended off my argument was mean, but here's the thing in this debate that I'm forced to repeat here, and which was the primary reason why I found the finial line about reading comprehension insulting. You haven't been specifying your points. Or point. And besides the whole entire reading comprehension thing was related to the manga.

But you aren't a hypocrite, far from it in fact. You just need to specifying what you are arguing.

[rereboy]

[spoiler]

I do take you seriously, but not in this debate. Hell at the start of this debate I believed that what you meant was that Dragon Ball Multiverse shouldn't be criticized on merits of being a fan manga. Then I believed that you meant that Dragon Ball Multiverse cannot be compared to any official products because of the fact that it is a fan manga.

I literally have no idea on the point that your trying to make, as you never specified what was your point. Hell you've even agreed with me on certain points, so again what are you trying to argue here? That's the reason why I stated that I can't take you seriously in this debate, as I'm having trouble on finding out what is the point is that your trying to make here.

So until you specify. I just cannot argue on this point any longer.

I've specified my point several times, clearly and plainly, right from my first post. Here's my point repeated yet again crystal clear in my last post:

"You are right when you say that for it to be good or bad it doesn't really matter if its amateur or professional work because both amateur and professional works can be good or bad.

However, if we want to have a really consistent, contextualized critique of the work when we criticize it, we should take into account the relevant factors. Being an amateur work or professional work, due to the very different conditions provided to the authors, is a very relevant factor. Of course, nothing is forcing us to take it into account, but if we don't, I don't see how our criticism and opinion can be considered all that consistent and contextualized. And that's my point, in short. You are free to not take into account factors like that, but if you don't, how consistent and contextualized will your critique actually be?"

If you really were unable to understand me until now, either because you really don't understand or because you aren't reading carefully, then I've been wasting my time and that means that, unfortunately, there is no point in having discussions with you.[/spoiler]

[Gog]

I've specified my point several times, clearly and plainly, right from my first post. Here's my point repeated yet again crystal clear in my last post:

"You are right when you say that for it to be good or bad it doesn't really matter if its amateur or professional work because both amateur and professional works can be good or bad.

However, if we want to have a really consistent, contextualized critique of the work when we criticize it, we should take into account the relevant factors. Being an amateur work or professional work, due to the very different conditions provided to the authors, is a very relevant factor. Of course, nothing is forcing us to take it into account, but if we don't, I don't see how our criticism and opinion can be considered all that consistent and contextualized. And that's my point, in short. You are free to not take into account factors like that, but if you don't, how consistent and contextualized will your critique actually be?"

If you really were unable to understand me until now, either because you really don't understand or because you aren't reading carefully, then I've been wasting my time and that means that, unfortunately, there is no point in having discussions with you.

If that's your point then, I really have nothing to argue against here. Sorry for all the misinformation.

[ParkerAL]

The new page is nice. I like how Recoome's blow sinks Goku into the ground. It's funny how this version of the character has already done far more against Goku than his U18 counterpart.

Recoome does look a bit too stiff and symmetrical in that last panel. It sort of takes the weight and energy out of the impact. Profile shots aren't a good fit for action in general. It would've been framed better from a more dynamic angle.

[Kamiccolo9]

The new page is nice. I like how Recoome's blow sinks Goku into the ground. It's funny how this version of the character has already done far more against Goku than his U18 counterpart.

Recoome does look a bit too stiff and symmetrical in that last panel. It sort of takes the weight and energy out of the impact. Profile shots aren't a good fit for action in general. It would've been framed better from a more dynamic angle.

Agreed. The art in this special seems a bit...stiff. Models are nice, but he seems to have issues with motion.