Kaiō & Kaiōshin of the 12 Universes

[Hellspawn28]

Maybe each universe had their own Majin Buu type of being and only one Kaioshin exist. It could be some type of prophecy that a Buu type of being exist in every universe.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

Maybe after Majin Buu destroys almost all Kaioshin of the universe 7, Zen'oh or Daishinkan decided to keep only one kaioshin in each universe.
Majin Buu born about 5 milion years before the actual story, maybe at that time the universe hierarchy was different, i theorize that Majin Buu was the reason that exists gods of destruction, maybe they're created to destroy that type of threat.

I like your idea. That would be great to see being shown in the show itself to clear this up. However, I still would prefer the idea of 5 Kaioshins for each universe. The reason is the life link between Kaioshin and God of Destruction. Since Kaioshins are far weaker than GoD, I would say having to kill more than 1 Kaioshin would be harder to eliminate God of Destruction in process.

I actually had more or less that exact thought as a possible explanation, and said so in my OP

4) Like in Universe 7, the other universes at some point in the past had 5 Kaiōshin, but suffered similar tragedies leaving their numbers dwindled, or Zen-Oh decided to eliminate these "extra" Kaiōshin after deciding that each universe only needed one, after seeing Universe 7 survive for some time that way seemingly fine (cosmic downsizing theory).

But I'm not gonna excuse something this big and leave it to headcanon. Toriyama/Toei/Toyotaro need to give us an official answer.

Maybe each universe had their own Majin Buu type of being and only one Kaioshin exist. It could be some type of prophecy that a Buu type of being exist in every universe.

That's another interesting variation, and if it were true it would be fascinating lure, but since Majin Boo is fighting right now in the Zen Exhibition Match in front of the (remaining?) Kaiōshin, it would be odd for none of them to be reminded of their own versions of Boo. Though of course, this Boo looks a bit different than the Pure Boo ("Kid Boo") but who knows.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

Or yet another theory could be that the Shinjin Tree that the Kaiō and Kaiōshin were said to be born from has become somewhat barron, and as a result Zen-Oh or Daishinkan decided to reduce the number of Kaiōshin per Universe to just one, and any attendants or apprentices they may have. This happened after Boo had already wiped out four of the five Kaiōshin in Universe 7.

[kaialone]

Also take a look at the wording in the translations reported here for Kanzenshuu

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/02/10/of ... ce-actors/

第９宇宙
界王神 ロウ
CV：増谷康紀

第９宇宙の界王神。他の宇宙を少し馬鹿にする傾向にある。

Universe 9
Kaiōshin: Rou
Voice Actor: Yasunori Masutani

The Kaiōshin of Universe 9. Tends to make fun of the other universes a bit.

第１１宇宙
界王神 カイ
CV：村田太志

第11宇宙の界王神。命を大切にする正義感が強くやさしい界王神。

Universe 11
Kaiōshin: Kai
Voice Actor: Taishi Murata

The Kaiōshin of Universe 11. A gentle Kaiōshin with a strong sense of justice who values life.

I mean there really is no denying the implication here is there is only one Kaiōshin for each Universe, even though we know that was not true of Universe 7 according to the original manga, guide books, and even the Z anime.

Actually, there is no "the" there in japanese, because the japanese language lacks articles like that. A more literal translation would just be "Kaioshin of Universe 9." and "Kaioshin from Universe 11." respectively. So no real implications that theres only one per universe in these bios at least.

Still, dialouge in the show seems to imply at this point that there is just one per universe, but I guess we dont know for sure. Plus I feel like if there were meant to be more, the bios would be worded differently, like "One of the Kaioshin from Universe so and so", but who knows.

[SaiyanSoul]

Isn't possible that each universe does have 5 Kaioshin's, but only the Grand Supreme Kai is the one that attends with God of Destruction because he has the highest title? So, since Universe 7 only has one Kai remaining he was automatically promoted to Grand Supreme Kai. In the Universe 6 tournament you clearly see more than one Supreme Kai which makes me think that the fat green Supreme Kai is the Grand Supreme Kai of Universe 6. It's not a retcon at all if this was made known.

[Grimlock]

We don't know if Kaioshins are automatically promoted (going by Universe 7's Kaioshins background, they wouldn't. When a Kaioshin dies, another should be replaced). Also, we only saw one Kaioshin in Universe 6, the taller one is an attendant just like Kibito.

[Nejishiki]

It doesn't particularly need to be dire scripting or gross negligence at play. Universe 7's multiple Kaioshin system was established millions of years ago. It could likely relate to special circumstances (Beerus interfering with Old Kaioshin's work) & single Kaioshin are the norm. It's not as if the story claimed multiple Kaioshin were required, correct?

Well we know there's more then one kaioshin for U6.

Maybe its a simple as they this. Kaioshin do not like Hakishin and most of them likely dont get on as well with each other as the U7 ones do. So basically one kaioshin from every universe drew the short straw and had to act as a representative for all the creation gods.

In the Universe 6 tournament you clearly see more than one Supreme Kai which makes me think that the fat green Supreme Kai is the Grand Supreme Kai of Universe 6.

Universe 6 introduced one Kaioshin & his attendant. Kaioshin & Hakaishin across the universes seldom get along, including Universe 7 until recent events.

Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.

Also, do anyone of you feel that East Kaioshin surprisingly became so well educated when it comes to the god hierarchy and multiverse concept? For me, East Kaioshin became a "retcon tool" to just hide the original idea of Kaioshins. Just think about it. This dude didn't know who was Beerus, and in consequence Whis. Neither did he know about Zeno-sama until he showed up at the end of U6 vs U7 tournament. Now suddenly he knows how to teleport to Zeno-sama's world. He even recognized Universe 9 Kaioshin, as he said "It's been a long time".

In Dragon Ball Super (Toyotaro), Kaioshin knows of Beerus & Kibito claims he couldn't help with Boo due to his sleeping habits. Zeno was who he was unaware of (& as usual, Old Kaioshin educated him).

Regarding Boo, his original form is the appearance that's known (assuming that extends outside of Universe 7). As far as we know, Team Kaioshin are the only individuals who are aware of (& witnessed) Boo's absorption. That doesn't make Boo's origins retconned or Grand Kaioshin forgotten considering they continue to be a part of established history in-universe. After all, it was Kaioshin of Universe 7 alone who closely followed the Grand Kaioshin-influenced Boo, Bibbidi, & Bobbidi, correct? Overall, Dragon Ball is being fast & loose with its vague establishments. Sometimes it's so unspecific that it can get away with loopholes, if one examines them closely.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

It doesn't particularly need to be dire scripting or gross negligence at play. Universe 7's multiple Kaioshin system was established millions of years ago. It could likely relate to special circumstances (Beerus interfering with Old Kaioshin's work) & single Kaioshin are the norm. It's not as if the story claimed multiple Kaioshin were required, correct?

Well we know there's more then one kaioshin for U6.

Maybe its a simple as they this. Kaioshin do not like Hakishin and most of them likely dont get on as well with each other as the U7 ones do. So basically one kaioshin from every universe drew the short straw and had to act as a representative for all the creation gods.

In the Universe 6 tournament you clearly see more than one Supreme Kai which makes me think that the fat green Supreme Kai is the Grand Supreme Kai of Universe 6.

Universe 6 introduced one Kaioshin & his attendant. Kaioshin & Hakaishin across the universes seldom get along, including Universe 7 until recent events.

Who was it that sealed the Elder Kaiōshin away in the Z Sword?
The Kaiōshin (who create planets) and the Gods of Destruction (who destroy them) have never gotten along that well, but once every 1,000 years they go to each other’s realms and hold a coordination meeting. At this time, they got into an argument over some trifling thing, and a certain short-tempered God of Destruction sealed Elder Kaiōshin away inside a sword. Naturally, it wouldn’t have been proper for him to destroy the Kaiōshin Realm itself. By the way, that God of Destruction was Beerus.

Also, do anyone of you feel that East Kaioshin surprisingly became so well educated when it comes to the god hierarchy and multiverse concept? For me, East Kaioshin became a "retcon tool" to just hide the original idea of Kaioshins. Just think about it. This dude didn't know who was Beerus, and in consequence Whis. Neither did he know about Zeno-sama until he showed up at the end of U6 vs U7 tournament. Now suddenly he knows how to teleport to Zeno-sama's world. He even recognized Universe 9 Kaioshin, as he said "It's been a long time".

In Dragon Ball Super (Toyotaro), Kaioshin knows of Beerus & Kibito claims he couldn't help with Boo due to his sleeping habits. Zeno was who he was unaware of (& as usual, Old Kaioshin educated him).

Regarding Boo, his original form is the appearance that's known (assuming that extends outside of Universe 7). As far as we know, Team Kaioshin are the only individuals who are aware of (& witnessed) Boo's absorption. That doesn't make Boo's origins retconned or Grand Kaioshin forgotten considering they continue to be a part of established history in-universe. After all, it was Kaioshin of Universe 7 alone who closely followed the Grand Kaioshin-influenced Boo, Bibbidi, & Bobbidi, correct? Overall, Dragon Ball is being fast & loose with its vague establishments. Sometimes it's so unspecific that it can get away with loopholes, if one examines them closely.

Thank you for this reply, and I agree with your points largely. I'm now just taking the wait and see approach and hope things are explained as the arc continues. Episode 80 threw in a fresh new curveball with the Omni-King's ranking system for the Universes and the revelation that Universe 7 is the second lowest. This has given me the new possible theory/headcanon explanation that perhaps Universe 7 was always considered a troubled Universe, and so it was decided by Zen-oh and/or Daishinkan that there needed to be a five Kaiōshin system to solve the problem but then that plan backfired/imploded when Boo wiped them out. And maybe then that's why it was never even bothered to be tried on other Universes, like the now lowest rated, Universe 9. This is an explanation, if made official, that I could totally accept.

[ChronoTwigger]

It was the appearance of Buu that forced the Kaioshins to split and rule u7. Old Kaioshin was sealed out, not killed, so waiting for his return they decide to split that way (taking his role wasn't possible, no official succession).
U7 is special in that sense.

[Smilodon]

I think they have more kaioshins...But in this tournament the only one is the Dai Kaioshin.
In U6 tournament we saw 2 Kaioshins, but now there's only one.

[Daisetsu]

The fat one is the U6 Kaioshin and the tall, skinny one is his attendant (in other words, he's the Kibito of U6). U7 is just the odd one out here.

[Marco Polo]

The South Kaioshin and the 3 others were Kaios, not Kaioshins.

[Grimlock]

Old Kaioshin was sealed out, not killed, so waiting for his return they decide to split that way (taking his role wasn't possible, no official succession).

Old Kaioshin is acknowledged as "East Kaioshin" in Son Goku Densetsu guide, so there is indeed a successor.

The South Kaioshin and the 3 others were Kaios, not Kaioshins.

What!?

[Doctor.]

The South Kaioshin and the 3 others were Kaios, not Kaioshins.

What?

[ChronoTwigger]

Old Kaioshin was sealed out, not killed, so waiting for his return they decide to split that way (taking his role wasn't possible, no official succession).

Old Kaioshin is acknowledged as "East Kaioshin" in Son Goku Densetsu guide, so there is indeed a successor.

Ok, I was unaware of that, so even the Buu theory fade out, that division end to be prior to his coming, probably.

[batistabus]

I think the one-Kaioshin-per-universe is just a retcon without an in-universe explanation, but I like to think that Universe 7 put together 5 Kaioshin as a defense against how lazy Beerus is.

[batistabus]

Apologies for the double post.

I think they have more kaioshins...But in this tournament the only one is the Dai Kaioshin.
In U6 tournament we saw 2 Kaioshins, but now there's only one.

I suppose this is also possible, there would be no need to refer to one as "Dai" if he were the only one present. Although, that other character is not a Kaioshin, he's a shinjin attendant like Kibito (or what the manga implies Zamasu to be as part of his training).