The hero failing is a common thing, my dear

[ChronoTwigger]

In an usual hero arc, there is the FAIL moment.
A great mistake that seems to turn the odds in favor of evil ones.

That mistake will solve, in the end, to be a pathway to a greater victory.

One of the greatest example is Sindbad deciding to land on the island, that turn to be full of dangers. But in the end he got rich by taking the gems and the golden egg in the eagle nest.
You also get Ulysses from greek epics, that whatever he does, a number of people die. But in the end everything save the day better than the opposite choice.
For kids today, you get Frodo going away from the party or recruiting Gollum. Solo going to Lando. Harry do a lot of mistakes that put everyone at danger.

Doing that mistake is somehow the only way to unveil a plot that couldn't be unveiled in any other way.

What I'm trying to hinting you is TO WAIT hating Goku.
In storytelling, your mind want to go on a rollercoaster of failures and success, that in the end solve the situation much better than anything else.
So, instead of shouting "Goku turn to be evil!!!" stop and think "how this could turn in the end to be a GOOD THING?".
Because that's exactly what will happen, or no storyteling will happen.
Without that premise, in the end Beerus could simply decide to erase Goku, or Zeno erase everything anyway.
So there's a greater good that's waiting further, and this "mistake" help the plot to reach it.

What's that good thing? What's the plot we are not aware now? Are things exactly as we know or there's something more that this mistake help to unveil and solve?
Those are smarter questions.

[Lord Frieza]

Oh my Kami......someone gets it!

[Ki Breaker]

Yes dear, we understand

[DragonBallFoodie]

Most of us are familiar with Goku being a flawed hero. He is after all someone who has never really grown up, who is still a child when he is now a grandfather. And it's part of his appeal too.

I think the problem is that the story has shifted from him seeking out new fighters to him doing so and seriously endangering people. In recent times, he got into a fight with Zamasu that led to his body getting stolen; he ordered Hit to try to kill him and it almost succeeded; and he has brought about a tournament that could result in universal destruction.

Goku, no matter how idiotic, has always done what he could to keep people safe. He has always understood that there was danger for others and has tried to protect them, so his recent actions do come out rather odd to my mind.

Of course, some people may agree with him being so powerful that he has to attract trouble, but I don't think that realistic aspect needs to apply here. DB is partly get-out-free fantasy, people can die and be resurrected and villains can change to be heroes. Again, this is part of DB's appeal and I do not like the way things have gone in DBS so far.

[SansrivaaL]

I still don't get the hate Goku's getting, for all we know its thanks to him that 1 universe even gets to survive at least, with those 2 crazy ass midgets on top of the whole fcking multiverse, their boredom alone can hint them to destroying the whole multiverse just for giggles. One way or another they are not safe until Zeno is like that, the midget needs to get his views changed the most, and that's where I think Goku comes in (could be a huge throwback with how Satan and Boo are) Satan (Goku) shows Boo (Zeno) that life is important.
At the end of the day DBS will show that Goku's choice was a good choice that turned out for the good.

[TekTheNinja]

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

[TheMathemagician]

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

Well no, his reaction afterwards was to try and talk Zen'o out of it, but his idea was discouraged. Nothing left to do then but to try and win for your universe.

[ChronoTwigger]

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

In straightlines narrative (like heroic fantasy), the hero progress in a path where no mistakes are allowed: only more difficult tasks one after the other.
And that's what exactly happened for 20 years in DB.

Zamasu plot hinted that something's changed and the plot is not linear. And is modernized.
Well, in fact ALL post Z arcs feature that.

Whis acted as Deus Ex, or Goku lose against Frieza invasion. The final result anyway was everyone to train again and for Frieza to stop being resurrected.
Goku lose from Frost. Goku "lose" from Hit. In the end, the U6 Earth get revived.
Goku doesn't win against Zamasu, but in the end Trunks FINALLY reach a power level high enough to care for himself, go to a merrier reality and save his beloved one.

Goku continually does mistakes, fail, increase the drama, but in the end the solution is far better than winning from the start.
Modern storytelling.

Goku DIDN'T DOOMED ANYONE. Zeno did it. Goku mistake was to think that young psycho is a gentle fun kid. And that's maybe what in the end will be unveiled. That Zeno deserve som kickassing and stop destroying stuff for fun. So Goku will get a greatest win.

[TheMathemagician]

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

In straightlines narrative (like heroic fantasy), the hero progress in a path where no mistakes are allowed: only more difficult tasks one after the other.
And that's what exactly happened for 20 years in DB.

Zamasu plot hinted that something's changed and the plot is not linear. And is modernized.
Well, in fact ALL post Z arcs feature that.

Whis acted as Deus Ex, or Goku lose against Frieza invasion. The final result anyway was everyone to train again and for Frieza to stop being resurrected.
Goku lose from Frost. Goku "lose" from Hit. In the end, the U6 Earth get revived.
Goku doesn't win against Zamasu, but in the end Trunks FINALLY reach a power level high enough to care for himself, go to a merrier reality and save his beloved one.

Goku continually does mistakes, fail, increase the drama, but in the end the solution is far better than winning from the start.
Modern storytelling.

Goku DIDN'T DOOMED ANYONE. Zeno did it. Goku mistake was to think that young psycho is a gentle fun kid. And that's maybe what in the end will be unveiled. That Zeno deserve som kickassing and stop destroying stuff for fun. So Goku will get a greatest win.

He seems pretty hellbent on believing what Goku is doing here is out of character, and judging from his post, he doesn't look like he's willing to be reasoned with. I mean, Goku isn't OOC, his characteristics get exaggerated at times, but nothing he's done has made him out of character.

[TekTheNinja]

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

In straightlines narrative (like heroic fantasy), the hero progress in a path where no mistakes are allowed: only more difficult tasks one after the other.
And that's what exactly happened for 20 years in DB.

Zamasu plot hinted that something's changed and the plot is not linear. And is modernized.
Well, in fact ALL post Z arcs feature that.

Whis acted as Deus Ex, or Goku lose against Frieza invasion. The final result anyway was everyone to train again and for Frieza to stop being resurrected.
Goku lose from Frost. Goku "lose" from Hit. In the end, the U6 Earth get revived.
Goku doesn't win against Zamasu, but in the end Trunks FINALLY reach a power level high enough to care for himself, go to a merrier reality and save his beloved one.

Goku continually does mistakes, fail, increase the drama, but in the end the solution is far better than winning from the start.
Modern storytelling.

Goku DIDN'T DOOMED ANYONE. Zeno did it. Goku mistake was to think that young psycho is a gentle fun kid. And that's maybe what in the end will be unveiled. That Zeno deserve som kickassing and stop destroying stuff for fun. So Goku will get a greatest win.

He seems pretty hellbent on believing what Goku is doing here is out of character, and judging from his post, he doesn't look like he's willing to be reasoned with. I mean, Goku isn't OOC, his characteristics get exaggerated at times, but nothing he's done has made him out of character.

No, I've listened to all the explanations a thousand times already and I still don't agree. He's out of character. This is not how Goku would have acted in the past. This is not Goku.

[DBZ Macky]

This is not how Goku would have acted in the past. This is not Goku.

I'll agree that what he's done this time is completely different in scale but it's still the same thing he did when he spared Vegeta.

Imagine this:
You're a kid in the 90s, yet everyone has as much access to the internet as now. You see how the Saiyans killed everyone but Goku finally defeats Vegeta. Although with A LOT of trouble.

But you see him spare him. Then, on Namek, you get to know that his battle power apparently increased, and because of that, Goku has not only endangered HIS OWN SON but also decreased the chances that Piccolo and co. would be revived.

And Goku was fully aware that Vegeta was irredeemable (to an extent) and only let him go so he could fight some other time. Which is even worse than him trusting Zeno.

It's the same thing. It's just that we now have the internet where we can bitch and moan about it.

[SansrivaaL]

This is not how Goku would have acted in the past. This is not Goku.

I'll agree that what he's done this time is completely different in scale but it's still the same thing he did when he spared Vegeta.

Imagine this:
You're a kid in the 90s, yet everyone has as much access to the internet as now. You see how the Saiyans killed everyone but Goku finally defeats Vegeta. Although with A LOT of trouble.

But you see him spare him. Then, on Namek, you get to know that his battle power apparently increased, and because of that, Goku has not only endangered HIS OWN SON but also decreased the chances that Piccolo and co. would be revived.

And Goku was fully aware that Vegeta was irredeemable (to an extent) and only let him go so he could fight some other time. Which is even worse than him trusting Zeno.

It's the same thing. It's just that we now have the internet where we can bitch and moan about it.

Not to mention reading other peoples opinions and riding the bandwagon, Goku being evil/out of character/stupid/true antagonist has become quite the trend in the fanbase, so a lot are following.
Honestly for me I dont see any difference, Goku outright says "I had no idea things would turn out the way it did" meaning he wasnt thinking about Beerus and Whis' warnings, he felt like they were playing him again like how back then they said Zeno would kill him if he doesnt show respect and bow down, which he didnt listen to then bam they became friends. Warnings can only get you so far, its not a 100% so Goku went for it (cant blame the guy, Beerus and Whis became less credible when it comes to judging Zeno, sadly this time, they were right, Goku misjudged, it happens, he aint perfect)

Goku letting Vegeta go was way worst, he knew exactly what would happen if he lets Vegeta go, he outright claims he doubts he will change like Piccolo, a lot of his friends died because of Nappa, at the time he knew the dragon balls were gone so they aint comin back, so why let the bastard that can potentially add dead bodies of your friends go and without the dragon balls to top? that was crazier since he put his own family and planet at a huge risk (luckily it turned out for the best)

Anyways this arc aint done yet, for all we know this could potentially be the arc where Zeno learns that destroying for lols aint good, its really hard to let someone like Zeno with his naivety and the way he plays with life left alone, one way or another the universes are gonna go boom depending on his mood, Goku reminding him of this tournament could be the key to change him.

[emperior]

That's what I was saying. In the end both Zenos will probably die/change and it will be a huge success, as the little guy has already destroyed 6 universes in the past, the entire multiverse of Trunks' timeline and he would have probably destroyed other universes in the future, even if Goku didn't ask him to hold this tournament.

[SsjCookie]

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

Goku has it all figured out here, He'll win the tournament (presumptuous much?) and wishes all the other universes back. (cheap yeah I know )
And not only that, but he also wishes the universes Zeno previously destroyed back.
I think that's the only way he can redeem himself in the eyes of many people.

[TheMathemagician]

In straightlines narrative (like heroic fantasy), the hero progress in a path where no mistakes are allowed: only more difficult tasks one after the other.
And that's what exactly happened for 20 years in DB.

Zamasu plot hinted that something's changed and the plot is not linear. And is modernized.
Well, in fact ALL post Z arcs feature that.

Whis acted as Deus Ex, or Goku lose against Frieza invasion. The final result anyway was everyone to train again and for Frieza to stop being resurrected.
Goku lose from Frost. Goku "lose" from Hit. In the end, the U6 Earth get revived.
Goku doesn't win against Zamasu, but in the end Trunks FINALLY reach a power level high enough to care for himself, go to a merrier reality and save his beloved one.

Goku continually does mistakes, fail, increase the drama, but in the end the solution is far better than winning from the start.
Modern storytelling.

Goku DIDN'T DOOMED ANYONE. Zeno did it. Goku mistake was to think that young psycho is a gentle fun kid. And that's maybe what in the end will be unveiled. That Zeno deserve som kickassing and stop destroying stuff for fun. So Goku will get a greatest win.

He seems pretty hellbent on believing what Goku is doing here is out of character, and judging from his post, he doesn't look like he's willing to be reasoned with. I mean, Goku isn't OOC, his characteristics get exaggerated at times, but nothing he's done has made him out of character.

No, I've listened to all the explanations a thousand times already and I still don't agree. He's out of character. This is not how Goku would have acted in the past. This is not Goku.

Except for the fact that it is Goku. You know, the Goku from the manga who made most of his decisions purely for the selfish reason for the good of the fight? The same reason why he started this tournament in the first place? He gets his characteristics exaggerated at times that's a fact. But he really isn't any different.

See, the main problem though is that even after learning the stakes, Goku's just like, "lel, we just got to win right?"

Like seriously Goku? You just doomed 11 universes, with the possibility of one of them being your own and you're smiling like an idiot. Stop it. It's not in character, and I don't care what anyone says. It's SO CLEARLY out of character.

Goku has it all figured out here, He'll win the tournament (presumptuous much?) and wishes all the other universes back. (cheap yeah I know )
And not only that, but he also wishes the universes Zeno previously destroyed back.
I think that's the only way he can redeem himself in the eyes of many people.

It's possible he just manages to convince them not to destroy the universes or reverse what they did. I mean he tried to do that before, but Beerus and Whis discouraged his idea and told him not to do that anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if he attempts to do so later on in the saga and it works.

[TekTheNinja]

Again, same shit every time. I'm sorry, but it's insane that you guys honestly can't see the difference.