Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[TheUltimateNinja]

A timeframe is never specified in the manga. Anyway, it makes sense for him to be that fast with a power level of 3,000,000.

In the manga, Freeza says something like "I guess I'll finish you off now", it cuts to Goku starting to travel, and then he arrives, with Freeza only having time to lift his arm to finish Vegeta. Clearly no more than 1 or, at best, a few seconds went by.

I'm talking about Goku going to Roshi's island to get his glasses.

[rereboy]

A timeframe is never specified in the manga. Anyway, it makes sense for him to be that fast with a power level of 3,000,000.

In the manga, Freeza says something like "I guess I'll finish you off now", it cuts to Goku starting to travel, and then he arrives, with Freeza only having time to lift his arm to finish Vegeta. Clearly no more than 1 or, at best, a few seconds went by.

I'm talking about Goku going to Roshi's island to get his glasses.

In that scene it's even more clear that just a second or at best a few seconds have gone by between Goku disappearing and appearing again.

Goku is gone in one panel and back in the next, and at first Vegeta even suggests that it's just a trick with super speed, but when Goku shows Roshi's glasses they all immediately accept that he couldn't have done it with speed, even Vegeta. In fact, they mentioned that Roshi's island is more than 10.000 kms away so, to be precise, everybody accepts that Goku couldn't possible be fast enough to travel 20.000 kms in a second or in a few seconds.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In the manga, Freeza says something like "I guess I'll finish you off now", it cuts to Goku starting to travel, and then he arrives, with Freeza only having time to lift his arm to finish Vegeta. Clearly no more than 1 or, at best, a few seconds went by.

I'm talking about Goku going to Roshi's island to get his glasses.

In that scene it's even more clear that just a second or at best a few seconds have gone by between Goku disappearing and appearing again.

Goku is gone in one panel and back in the next, and at first Vegeta even suggests that it's just a trick with super speed, but when Goku shows Roshi's glasses they all immediately accept that he couldn't have done it with speed, even Vegeta. In fact, they mentioned that Roshi's island is more than 10.000 kms away so, to be precise, everybody accepts that Goku couldn't possible be fast enough to travel 20.000 kms in a second or in a few seconds.

We don't know that it's a few seconds, it could have been a tenth of a second for all we know.

[rereboy]

I'm talking about Goku going to Roshi's island to get his glasses.

In that scene it's even more clear that just a second or at best a few seconds have gone by between Goku disappearing and appearing again.

Goku is gone in one panel and back in the next, and at first Vegeta even suggests that it's just a trick with super speed, but when Goku shows Roshi's glasses they all immediately accept that he couldn't have done it with speed, even Vegeta. In fact, they mentioned that Roshi's island is more than 10.000 kms away so, to be precise, everybody accepts that Goku couldn't possible be fast enough to travel 20.000 kms in a second or in a few seconds.

We don't know that it's a few seconds, it could have been a tenth of a second for all we know.

It doesn't matter exactly how long it was, all that matters is that it was a very short time.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In that scene it's even more clear that just a second or at best a few seconds have gone by between Goku disappearing and appearing again.

Goku is gone in one panel and back in the next, and at first Vegeta even suggests that it's just a trick with super speed, but when Goku shows Roshi's glasses they all immediately accept that he couldn't have done it with speed, even Vegeta. In fact, they mentioned that Roshi's island is more than 10.000 kms away so, to be precise, everybody accepts that Goku couldn't possible be fast enough to travel 20.000 kms in a second or in a few seconds.

We don't know that it's a few seconds, it could have been a tenth of a second for all we know.

It doesn't matter exactly how long it was, all that matters is that it was a very short time.

It actually does matter. If it was a couple of seconds then Goku should be fast enough to make the round trip through speed alone, if it's a small fraction of a second it's believable that he wouldn't be fast enough.

[Regarder]

That planet doesn't look like a dystopia of pain and suffering. Looks like quite a nice place where aliens can live normally and have basic stuff like cameras and presumably all sorts of high tech stuff as well.There seems to be high living standards and some freedom, and the Ginyu force are treat as heroes (and notice that Ginyu doesn't act like he's too good for commoners like a Saiyan would). Maybe we're meant to see this so that when Goku destroys the place it looks bad.

Hmm. What if Freeza makes things better on average?

Utilitarian philosophers assemble!

[rereboy]

It actually does matter. If it was a couple of seconds then Goku should be fast enough to make the round trip through speed alone, if it's a small fraction of a second it's believable that he wouldn't be fast enough.

It doesn't matter because, whether it was a fraction of a second or a few seconds, if he can't do it in any case, he wouldn't be able to get to other side of planet Namek in about the same time, which is stated to be larger than Earth, when he was weaker/slower. That's what was being discussed.

Also, you are basing his speed purely on exactly how fast you feel he should be, disregarding that Dragon Ball is not perfectly consistent regarding stuff like that. Even if it was consistent, it's impossible to pinpoint his speed to the the point you are trying to do because there's not even enough info, but it's not even really consistent.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It actually does matter. If it was a couple of seconds then Goku should be fast enough to make the round trip through speed alone, if it's a small fraction of a second it's believable that he wouldn't be fast enough.

It doesn't matter because, whether it was a fraction of a second or a few seconds, if he can't do it in any case, he wouldn't be able to get to other side of planet Namek in about the same time, which is stated to be larger than Earth, when he was weaker/slower. That's what was being discussed.

Also, you are basing his speed purely on exactly how fast you feel he should be, disregarding that Dragon Ball is not perfectly consistent regarding stuff like that. Even if it was consistent, it's impossible to pinpoint his speed to the the point you are trying to do because there's not even enough info, but it's not even really consistent.

There's nothing to indicate that it was the same time, we just know that they were both very short. It could very well be that the amount of time that passed when he performed the IT was much shorter than the amount of time he had on Namek.

[Marco Polo]

The gravity might be different on this planet, which might affect Ginyu's speed. It's not just a matter of distance.

[Kamiccolo9]

Can we not just enjoy a thing without all the pseudo-mathematicians coming in bitching and moaning about how some guy's comic doesn't match their made-up numbers? You guys already have a thread for that. Keep that shit in there.

[rereboy]

There's nothing to indicate that it was the same time, we just know that they were both very short. It could very well be that the amount of time that passed when he performed the IT was much shorter than the amount of time he had on Namek.

If Goku's speed was anywhere close to being able to make that distance in a short time, they, especially Vegeta, wouldn't automatically accept that Goku could only do it by teleportation. They would just say "wow, your speed is even more impressive now". Instead they immediately dismissed it as impossible and accepted teleportation as the answer. Aka, Goku is nowhere near fast enough to be able to cross that distance in any kind of short time. That's the intent of the author and that's what the manga is telling us. One second or two longer is irrelevant because that would be close to being able to do it and thus everyone would assume simply that he got faster instead of assuming that it must be teleportation.

Also, that difference of one second or two is insignificant in the light of the obvious inconsistencies of Dragon Ball. For such a difference to matter, for us to be able to pinpoint a conclusion for that degree of a difference, Dragon Ball would have to have a much higher degree of consistency and contextual information.

Can we not just enjoy a thing without all the pseudo-mathematicians coming in bitching and moaning about how some guy's comic doesn't match their made-up numbers? You guys already have a thread for that. Keep that shit in there.

Er... No one was being disrespectful or exaggerating and the discussion was not only related to Dragon Ball but also to the last page of the comic.

[TheUltimateNinja]

There's nothing to indicate that it was the same time, we just know that they were both very short. It could very well be that the amount of time that passed when he performed the IT was much shorter than the amount of time he had on Namek.

If Goku's speed was anywhere close to being able to make that distance in a short time, they, especially Vegeta, wouldn't automatically accept that Goku could only do it by teleportation. They would just say "wow, your speed is even more impressive now". Instead they immediately dismissed it as impossible and accepted teleportation as the answer. Aka, Goku is nowhere near fast enough to be able to cross that distance in any kind of short time. That's the intent of the author and that's what the manga is telling us. One second or two longer is irrelevant because that would be close to being able to do it and thus everyone would assume simply that he got faster instead of assuming that it must be teleportation.

One second or two is a huge amount of time, even back in the 21st Budokai Roshi and Kuririn were able to have a very complex exchange in a fraction of a second.

Ignoring the difference between a tiny fraction of a second and multiple seconds is like saying a plane traveling around the world in 1 hour is no different from it taking a whole day to do so, the former is clearly far more impressive and actually impossible for a plane to do at this time.

[rereboy]

One second or two is a huge amount of time, even back in the 21st Budokai Roshi and Kuririn were able to have a very complex exchange in a fraction of a second.

Ignoring the difference between a tiny fraction of a second and multiple seconds is like saying a plane traveling around the world in 1 hour is no different from it taking a whole day to do so, the former is clearly far more impressive and actually impossible for a plane to do at this time.

Sure, if this was a perfectly consistent series regarding feats and numerical differences. But it's not.

Toriyama isn't writing with a calculator in his hand. He writes based on notions (aka a short time, this is much bigger than that, etc). That's why intent and the point of the scenes are so much more important than any very specific calculation that we could do. That's why even when Toriyama uses numbers (like in Battle Powers), things end up not being very consistent and their point ends up being nothing more than a broad "oh this means that he is much stronger" or similar.

Any very specific conclusion that you want to make based of very specific numbers or small differences like that will fall way within the margin of the numerical error and inconsistency inherent to Dragon Ball.

And it's the same in this page of DBM. Being fast enough to be on the other side of a planet, especially one with unknown size and gravity, in 5 minutes, is pretty fast and it doesn't need to have any more than a broad unspecific consistency with other feats of speed and strength of the series, because the series is never that consistent. And it does do that.

It's also the same when Goku teleports. If this was a very consistent series, where the author actually did the math and worried about being extremely consistent, a difference of two seconds could indeed be very significant... but in the context of how Toriyama writes, that would always fall within a very short time notion, and that is noticeable in the teleporting scene since there's obviously no intention of discussing exactly how long he was gone.

[TheUltimateNinja]

One second or two is a huge amount of time, even back in the 21st Budokai Roshi and Kuririn were able to have a very complex exchange in a fraction of a second.

Ignoring the difference between a tiny fraction of a second and multiple seconds is like saying a plane traveling around the world in 1 hour is no different from it taking a whole day to do so, the former is clearly far more impressive and actually impossible for a plane to do at this time.

Sure, if this was a perfectly consistent series regarding feats and numerical differences. But it's not.

Toriyama isn't writing with a calculator in his hand. He writes based on notions (aka a short time, this is much bigger than that, etc). That's why intent and the point of the scenes are so much more important than any very specific calculation that we could do. That's why even when Toriyama uses numbers (like in Battle Powers), things end up not being very consistent and their point ends up being nothing more than a broad "oh this means that he is much stronger" or similar.

Any very specific conclusion that you want to make based of very specific numbers or small differences like that will fall way within the margin of the numerical error and inconsistency inherent to Dragon Ball.

And it's the same in this page of DBM. Being fast enough to be on the other side of a planet, especially one with unknown size and gravity, in 5 minutes, is pretty fast and it doesn't need to have any more than a broad unspecific consistency with other feats of speed and strength of the series, because the series is never that consistent. And it does do that.

It's also the same when Goku teleports. If this was a very consistent series, where the author actually did the math and worried about being extremely consistent, a difference of two seconds could indeed be very significant... but in the context of how Toriyama writes, that would always fall within a very short time notion, and that is noticeable in the teleporting scene since there's obviously no intention of discussing exactly how long he was gone.

The original being flawed does not protect a fan work from being subject to the same critique. A relatively small increase in battle power means a huge increase in actual stats like speed. When he was doing Karin's training Goku took almost an entire day to get to the top the first time, but the second time he was able to make the round trip in just 3 hours. When he completed Kaio's training Goku's battle power went up less than 20x, but he crossed snake way nearly 200x faster. Thus given that Ginyu's battle power was tremendously far above anything we'd seen in the series up until that point besides Freeza, him being so slow that he takes 5 minutes to get to the other side of a planet makes no sense.

[rereboy]

The original being flawed does not protect a fan work from being subject to the same critique.

The fan created work is also not that consistent or trying to be.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The original being flawed does not protect a fan work from being subject to the same critique.

The fan created work is also not that consistent or trying to be.

That's not really a defense either. I could make a fanfic where Kuririn gets a rage boost and oneshots Perfect Cell and say it's okay because I wasn't even trying to be consistent, but that still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't make sense.

[Doctor.]

The original being flawed does not protect a fan work from being subject to the same critique.

The fan created work is also not that consistent or trying to be.

I don't agree with the complaints being thrown around, but you're basically saying "The fan created work is also not that good or trying to be."

[Tsufuru]

The original being flawed does not protect a fan work from being subject to the same critique.

The fan created work is also not that consistent or trying to be.

you seem to defend every bullshit that happens in dbm.
the author is not akira toriyama and yet you try to apply the same toriyama logic for the author of dbm.

[rereboy]

The original being flawed does not protect a fan work from being subject to the same critique.

The fan created work is also not that consistent or trying to be.

you seem to defend every bullshit that happens in dbm.
the author is not akira toriyama and yet you try to apply the same toriyama logic for the author of dbm.

I defend it so much that just some pages ago I agreed that Goku shouldn't be having so much difficulty with the Ginyus (at least without explaining why Goku is weaker than in the manga), even though other people said that they didn't see a problem with it... And a few pages before that I was saying that specials chapters are generally filler and aren't thought through...

Perhaps you should realize that I just take it easy with DBM because it's a fan manga, that I try to be pretty fair about it all and that I always provide logical arguments for what I'm saying. I don't just state things without thinking about it, and if someone criticizes an aspect and I don't really agree with the criticism I will say so and explain so, logically, with arguments, which was what I did in this last page regarding whether or not Ginyu should reach the other side of the planet faster.

I don't agree with the complaints being thrown around, but you're basically saying "The fan created work is also not that good or trying to be."

I was never talking about overall quality. I was talking about expecting to be able to reach a definite, precise conclusion from the numbers listed on the special. First, there is not enough info, since we don't even know the size of the planet. Second, for it to work, the numbers would have to be perfectly consistent with everything else. Are they? Of course not. And of course they aren't trying to be. Seriously, which franchise has that kind of consistency or even tries to? Superman? Toriko? Spider-man? I don't know of any franchise, besides some super serious sci-fi that I might have heard of but I'm not that familiar with, that would be that consistent to the point where we could be that precise with the numbers and extrapolate conclusions. Maybe occasionally that can happen, on some of them, but probably most of them have more info and are more consistent than Dragon Ball or this fan manga and none of them will be perfectly consistent. And all of those franchises have varying quality... obviously, it's not about quality.

That's not really a defense either. I could make a fanfic where Kuririn gets a rage boost and oneshots Perfect Cell and say it's okay because I wasn't even trying to be consistent, but that still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't make sense.

If I was that worried about "defending" it, I wouldn't be talking about how it's not perfectly consistent.

Anyway, your example really has nothing to do with what I was saying. I was saying that in those conditions (aka lack of perfect consistency) we just can't reach precise conclusions from the few numbers being thrown around. Your whole argument is based on being able to be very precise about how exactly fast they are or should be. And I'm simply saying that that's not really possible without perfect consistency, that things in Dragon Ball and also in this special and in DBM are more about the not very specific notions like "this guys is stronger than this one", "that one is wayyy stronger than this one", "a very short time passed", and so on rather than very specific numerical info from which we can extrapolate precise conclusions consistently.

Krillin going around and killing final villains with poor explanations for how he got so strong is not a matter of being able to be that precise in our conclusions from the few numbers that exist, it's about being against the established, not very specific, notion that those final villains were WAAAAAYYYYYYYY stronger than Krillin and thus it wouldn't make sense for him to just kill them like that.

If you really want to criticize that aspect, what you should criticize is the lack of specific, contextualized and numerical info on their feats and abilities, not how what you see happening doesn't seem to support the conclusion that you somehow reached despite the lack of that kind of info and the lack of perfect consistency to reach those conclusions.

[coola]