"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

You mean in super correct if so i agree.

No, I mean Son Goku, as a whole, is an inconsistently written character. And that's to be expected, considering Toriyama wrote the series without planning it, but it doesn't make it any less true in my eyes.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

"Now with one more thing to protect, Goku puts even more effort into selecting members to compete". Aww how great of Uncle Goku!

[TheMathemagician]

Vegeta literally said he was stronger than Goku when facing Black.

Did he? Was that after his trip in the ROSAT or before?

After. Even if he was stronger than him in SSB, Goku still has Kaioken. Which leads once again to my main point: Goku still severely outclasses him and the show keeps pretending there's some rivalry.

My biggest problem. It's a poorly written rivalry, and the series as a whole continues to still try and promote it as a rivalry when it just comes off as being one-sided far too often. SSB Vegeta being > SSB Goku means nothing when Goku can still one-shot Vegeta if he ever really wanted to. This can't be a rivalry when one guy is being written to show very little care and is miles ahead of the other guy who at times still treats this as a legit rivalry.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

You mean in super correct if so i agree.

No, I mean Son Goku, as a whole, is an inconsistently written character. And that's to be expected, considering Toriyama wrote the series without planning it, but it doesn't make it any less true in my eyes.

Frankly, he's barely a character to begin with. Just like Marshall Dillon, Captain Kirk... Hell, most westerns and/or adventures ever told! Many other notable protagonists as well, especially in long-running series'. The protagonist is often a surrogate for the development of other side characters (and a tool to solve their problems), having flimsy, inconsistent personalities in and of themselves. It's an established method of storytelling, so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

[kinisking]

Let's say boo saga Vegeta. Why is this Vegeta less interesting ?

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but Boo Arc Vegeta more interesting for me because there's actually character progression. Even though I like the role that Super tries to put Vegeta in, particularly with Cabba and Trunks, there's never enough proper focus or development to make it interesting. The most it's ever tried is episode 54, but they were so stuck on uber-aggressive badass Vegeta that no character progress was ever actually made (despite later episodes pretending that Vegeta had legitimately mentored Trunks).

Short answer: Super needs stop dick-teasing fans with Vegeta and actually do something with him. Toriyama and the anime staff understood this with Z.

Mule covers most of it, this seems to be like the goku situation, you either get it or you don't..
Theoretically it can be proved false but practically it's another story

To Jinjoningen: I understand why you might not like him as much if you believe his character isn't progressing as much. However, I can't really agree that his character isn't progressing. We've definitely seen him progress and say things like wanting to beat black for trunks, being fatherly in general, taking a blast for Trunks, the mentoring of Cabba, and not wanting to train while Bulma is pregnant. If you don't think that they don't give enough focus, how would you change it? Also, Vegeta gave Future Trunks motivation in his own aggressive way so I do believe he mentored him.

To, Ki Breaker. Do you really agree? It seems like your main problem is that he's too much of family man now rather than caring about whether or not his character is progressing.

Also to both of you: What makes his manga incarnation better than his anime one?

Frankly, he's barely a character to begin with. Just like Marshall Dillon, Captain Kirk... Hell, most westerns and/or adventures ever told! Many other notable protagonists as well, especially in long-running series'. The protagonist is often a surrogate for the development of other side characters (and a tool to solve their problems), having flimsy, inconsistent personalities in and of themselves. It's an established method of storytelling, so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

Heh, I kind of agree. Just expect this to trigger a lot of people though.

[Doctor.]

so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

I don't either, the moments where he's supposedly out of character is what makes him interesting. I just find it irksome when you suggest something interesting to do with the character and get shutdown with "oh, but that would be out of character." But the character has been inconsistently written since his inception.

[Lord Beerus]

Frankly, he's barely a character to begin with. Just like Marshall Dillon, Captain Kirk... Hell, most westerns and/or adventures ever told! Many other notable protagonists as well, especially in long-running series'. The protagonist is often a surrogate for the development of other side characters (and a tool to solve their problems), having flimsy, inconsistent personalities in and of themselves. It's an established method of storytelling, so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

Heh, I kind of agree. Just expect this to trigger a lot of people though.

I won't lie. Goku's characterisation is pretty bland and standard. But I think there's more to his character than people give it credit for. He's a fascinating character, to say the very least.

[ekrolo2]

Frankly, he's barely a character to begin with. Just like Marshall Dillon, Captain Kirk... Hell, most westerns and/or adventures ever told! Many other notable protagonists as well, especially in long-running series'. The protagonist is often a surrogate for the development of other side characters (and a tool to solve their problems), having flimsy, inconsistent personalities in and of themselves. It's an established method of storytelling, so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

Heh, I kind of agree. Just expect this to trigger a lot of people though.

At least Goku's not bland like quite a few protagonists I can name, he's actually got a personality even if it is one that's really all over the place at points. It's not like say Luke Skywalker who's got the personality of a dead brick yet is called one of the best protagonists ever (much to my dismay).

so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

I don't either, the moments where he's supposedly out of character is what makes him interesting. I just find it irksome when you suggest something interesting to do with the character and get shutdown with "oh, but that would be out of character." But the character has been inconsistently written since his inception.

The whole "oh you can't do this with that character or x property" is a mentality that needs to fucking die like the dinosaurs period. It suffocates potentially good storytelling and ideas just so the mouth breathing shit heels comprising many fictional fandoms (especially comic books) can get 9000 flavors of the same shit they like that all basically taste the same.

[TheMathemagician]

Frankly, he's barely a character to begin with. Just like Marshall Dillon, Captain Kirk... Hell, most westerns and/or adventures ever told! Many other notable protagonists as well, especially in long-running series'. The protagonist is often a surrogate for the development of other side characters (and a tool to solve their problems), having flimsy, inconsistent personalities in and of themselves. It's an established method of storytelling, so I don't really care when Goku is "out of character".

Heh, I kind of agree. Just expect this to trigger a lot of people though.

I won't lie. Goku's characterisation is pretty bland and standard. But I think there's more to his character than people give it credit for. He's a fascinating character, to say the very least.

He can be the most annoying character in the whole series for me and makes me want to hit my head against a wall with how dumb he can be in Super for example. At the same time, he can be the most savage character in the series.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

To Jinzoningen: ... I can't really agree that his character isn't progressing. We've definitely seen him progress and say things like wanting to beat black for trunks, being fatherly in general, taking a blast for Trunks, the mentoring of Cabba, and not wanting to train while Bulma is pregnant...

You've fallen for their illusion of development. They've begun paving for several development possibilities, but haven't followed up on even one of them. I doubt Bulma's pregnancy will be any different. Also, most of the things you've listed aren't even related to development in Super, but the result of traits that Vegeta developed way back in the Boo Arc.

If you don't think that they don't give enough focus, how would you change it? Also, Vegeta gave Future Trunks motivation in his own aggressive way so I do believe he mentored him.

It would be one thing if he took an aggressive approach to mentoring, that's not what happened. They fought, Vegeta beat the ever-living shit out of Trunks, Trunks gets a hit on Vegeta (when Vegeta isn't paying attention, no less) ... and that's it. No actual mentoring, not even training, really. I get that they were going for something "beyond words", but the scenario wasn't set up properly. If that scene were there to inspire Trunks to never give up, or something like that, it all would have worked, but that was only a secondary message.

As for how I would handle it, I already addressed that here:

What more can be done with the Vegeta?

They could follow through on the several roles they seem to want to put him in. That's all I want, and it's not much, since Super is the show that keeps teasing these ideas.

Here's a few spitballs:

• Have him become a legitimate mentor to Cabba (Trunks could work, too), let him bond with his students, and make character arcs based on that.
  
  Have Vegeta step up his rivalry game, it wouldn't be difficult to have him innovate in some spectacular way. As-is, the rivalry is a stale joke, especially since Goku has the Kaioken. If they're doing the rivalry, make it an actual rivalry.
  
  The exact opposite if the last option; Drop the rivalry altogether. Not only would it be in line with his last bit of development in Z, but with Bra being born, now is the perfect time. From now on, Vegeta fights for his family and his self-satisfaction, not to prove himself to others.

None of these require complex scenarios, or even clever writing, really. We don't ask for much.

[kinisking]

You've fallen for their illusion of development. They've begun paving for several development possibilities, but haven't followed up on even one of them. I doubt Bulma's pregnancy will be any different. Also, most of the things you've listed aren't even related to development in Super, but the result of traits that Vegeta developed way back in the Boo Arc.

If you don't think that they don't give enough focus, how would you change it? Also, Vegeta gave Future Trunks motivation in his own aggressive way so I do believe he mentored him.

It would be one thing if he took an aggressive approach to mentoring, that's not what happened. They fought, Vegeta beat the ever-living shit out of Trunks, Trunks gets a hit on Vegeta (when Vegeta isn't paying attention, no less) ... and that's it. No actual mentoring, not even training, really. I get that they were going for something "beyond words", but the scenario wasn't set up properly. If that scene were there to inspire Trunks to never give up, or something like that, it all would have worked, but that was only a secondary message.

As for how I would handle it, I already addressed that here:

What more can be done with the Vegeta?

They could follow through on the several roles they seem to want to put him in. That's all I want, and it's not much, since Super is the show that keeps teasing these ideas.

Here's a few spitballs:

• Have him become a legitimate mentor to Cabba (Trunks could work, too), let him bond with his students, and make character arcs based on that.
  
  Have Vegeta step up his rivalry game, it wouldn't be difficult to have him innovate in some spectacular way. As-is, the rivalry is a stale joke, especially since Goku has the Kaioken. If they're doing the rivalry, make it an actual rivalry.
  
  The exact opposite if the last option; Drop the rivalry altogether. Not only would it be in line with his last bit of development in Z, but with Bra being born, now is the perfect time. From now on, Vegeta fights for his family and his self-satisfaction, not to prove himself to others.

None of these require complex scenarios, or even clever writing, really. We don't ask for much.

Vegeta motivating Trunks to never give up imo was enough mentoring for me to be satisfied with. Also the anime seems to imply that Vegeta and Trunks trained more than the one time we saw them.

I like the first two options. I really want to see that now.

Also are you one of the people who prefer manga vegeta? If so, why?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Are you one of the people who prefer manga vegeta? If so, why?

Toyotaro's Vegeta? I actually haven't given it much thought. I'm probably about even on them. Toyotaro's Vegeta is basically the same, but without much emphasis on any of the post-Boo aspects of his personality. I think the root problem here is Toriyama not knowing what to do with him (go figure). After all, they can't exactly create major character moments for him themselves, there would always be the risk of Toriyama deciding to take it another direction.

[Kanassa]

I always saw Goku and Vegeta as a really one-sided rivalry, because Goku really never seemed to care about Vegeta's progress aside from one or two moments.

[Asura]

So all across the internet I'm seeing tons of hate about Toppo's character design. For some reason people really, really hate him.

Am I the minority here in saying that I really like everything about Toppo's character? He's a big ass muscular burly dude with a giant beard. Literally what is not to love? I think he's awesome and can't wait to see how he fights with such an unusually proportioned body in the next episode.

[pacz360]

So all across the internet I'm seeing tons of hate about Toppo's character design. For some reason people really, really hate him.

Am I the minority here in saying that I really like everything about Toppo's character? He's a big ass muscular burly dude with a giant beard. Literally what is not to love? I think he's awesome and can't wait to see how he fights with such an unusually proportioned body in the next episode.

Most people here are fine with his design especially me where did on the internet did you found hate for the design.

[FortuneSSJ]

So all across the internet I'm seeing tons of hate about Toppo's character design. For some reason people really, really hate him.

Didn't see any. What kind of pages are you talking about?

[Chuquita]

I don't hate him. I'm neutral. Are people against him because he looks like Dr. Robotnik from Sonic?

[Asura]

Most people here are fine with his design especially me where did on the internet did you found hate for the design.

Didn't see any. What kind of pages are you talking about?

Mostly smaller subreddits dedicated to DBZ (although even in the most popular one, /r/dbz, I saw quite a lot of upvoted comments talking about his design in a negative way) as well as the comments section of prominent 'tubers like Geekdom and Masako. Geekdom's new video talking about the name reveal of the alien we see Goku fighting in the opening has the top rated comment (with over 500 thumbs up) shitting all over Toppo's character design.

I know YouTube comments aren't exactly the best places with the best and most educated opinions out there, but I'm surprised to find these comments on someone like Geekdom's videos, who usually shares the same opinion as the majority of Kanzenshuu in his videos, so it's surprising to see his fans shit all over Toppo's design as if it isn't a typical Toriyama design that we all know and are used to.

Basically I'm just seeing way more hate expressed for the character than I'm seeing positive remarks about him.

[kinisking]

So all across the internet I'm seeing tons of hate about Toppo's character design. For some reason people really, really hate him.

Am I the minority here in saying that I really like everything about Toppo's character? He's a big ass muscular burly dude with a giant beard. Literally what is not to love? I think he's awesome and can't wait to see how he fights with such an unusually proportioned body in the next episode.

People want every character to be designed in a realistic and "Badass" way because they forget this is a cartoon.

[pacz360]

Most people here are fine with his design especially me where did on the internet did you found hate for the design.

Didn't see any. What kind of pages are you talking about?

Mostly smaller subreddits dedicated to DBZ (although even in the most popular one, /r/dbz, I saw quite a lot of upvoted comments talking about his design in a negative way) as well as the comments section of prominent 'tubers like Geekdom and Masako. Geekdom's new video talking about the name reveal of the alien we see Goku fighting in the opening has the top rated comment (with over 500 thumbs up) shitting all over Toppo's character design.

I know YouTube comments aren't exactly the best places with the best and most educated opinions out there, but I'm surprised to find these comments on someone like Geekdom's videos, who usually shares the same opinion as the majority of Kanzenshuu in his videos, so it's surprising to see his fans shit all over Toppo's design as if it isn't a typical Toriyama design that we all know and are used to.

Basically I'm just seeing way more hate expressed for the character than I'm seeing positive remarks about him.

I went on reddit and I barely saw any negative comment on toppo design.
Also again as you mentioned YouTube is not best place to judge opinions on.