Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

Is Gogeta really over 10x stronger than Gotenks, though?

Given that he's a haxxed movie character, anything is possible.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is Gogeta really over 10x stronger than Gotenks, though?

Given that he's a haxxed movie character, anything is possible.

I don't see anything that necessitates him being that high, he just has to be significantly more powerful than Super Janemba who is considerably more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

[Noah]

Is Gogeta really over 10x stronger than Gotenks, though?

Yeah I think that would be exaggerating things a bit, even though is a good argument of the rival boost being effective in the Fusion Dance too, I still don't think Super Gogeta alone could defeat Super Boo.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Here's my personal power levels for them:
Goku: 45,000,000
-SSJ3: 18,000,000,000

Gogeta: 900,000,000
-SSJ: 45,000,000,000

Goten: 36,000,000

Gotenks: 144,000,000
-SSJ: 7,200,000,000
-SSJ3: 57,600,000,000

Super Buu: 57,600,000,000

Super Janemba: 24,000,000,000

[DanielSSJ]

Is Gogeta really over 10x stronger than Gotenks, though?

Given that he's a haxxed movie character, anything is possible.

I don't see anything that necessitates him being that high, he just has to be significantly more powerful than Super Janemba who is considerably more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

It's more of my tendency to view the movie antagonists as counterparts of villains of the main series. Janemba is clearly supposed to be a mirror of Majin Boo, as the chubby, cheerful monster with strange powers who turns into a far more powerful and sinister creature in a leaner form, who completely outclasses SS3 Goku but is easily beaten by a Goku/Vegeta fusion. Given that, I view Super Janemba as being around the same strength as his main series counterpart, Evil Boo. Thus, Super Gogeta is at least as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. Not exactly airtight reasoning, but whatever.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's more of my tendency to view the movie antagonists as counterparts of villains of the main series. Janemba is clearly supposed to be a mirror of Majin Boo, as the chubby, cheerful monster with strange powers who turns into a far more powerful and sinister creature in a leaner form, who completely outclasses SS3 Goku but is easily beaten by a Goku/Vegeta fusion. Given that, I view Super Janemba as being around the same strength as his main series counterpart, Evil Boo. Thus, Super Gogeta is at least as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. Not exactly airtight reasoning, but whatever.

If you were to view the movies as analogues to the series, you'd have to use the anime instead of the manga since that's what they're based on, and in the anime Goku on his own already outclasses Gotenks and Gohan.

[DanielSSJ]

If you were to view the movies as analogues to the series, you'd have to use the anime instead of the manga since that's what they're based on, and in the anime Goku on his own already outclasses Gotenks and Gohan.

Yeah, but I'm trying not to include any dumb and contradictory information here. Hard to do with Toei original material, but I manage.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If you were to view the movies as analogues to the series, you'd have to use the anime instead of the manga since that's what they're based on, and in the anime Goku on his own already outclasses Gotenks and Gohan.

Yeah, but I'm trying not to include any dumb and contradictory information here. Hard to do with Toei original material, but I manage.

I've considered creating an anime/movie exclusive list where SSJ is a much smaller multiplier to account for the Cell Arc era implication that Base Goku > SSJ Vegeta

[DanielSSJ]

I've considered creating an anime/movie exclusive list where SSJ is a much smaller multiplier to account for the Cell Arc era implication that Base Goku > SSJ Vegeta

When is that implied? From my understanding, it's really only the Boo Arc that hypes up the base Saiyans like that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I've considered creating an anime/movie exclusive list where SSJ is a much smaller multiplier to account for the Cell Arc era implication that Base Goku > SSJ Vegeta

When is that implied? From my understanding, it's really only the Boo Arc that hypes up the base Saiyans like that.

It's not the series itself but the Broly movies the first of which takes place in the Cell Arc.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Does Black Arc Vegetto have a lower multiplier than Buu Arc Vegetto? Personally I have him at only 10-20x Goku rather than 100x.

[dragonball0900]

I like your list here,but I wouldn't put chiaotzu in that level,I would put him at 35,000,or at least 26k,I'm looking forward to see the cell arc list

Oh, yeah. The humans' power levels are actually guesses from mine and should not be taken that seriously I was using Chiaotzu's level from his training with King Kai like 15 times 610 (his saiyan saga strenght) to get to 9,000 in the first 130 days of his training. Then another 130 days would double his power and get him to 18,000.
Then after that it's all up to anyone's interpretation. I just put him 100,000 because I wanted him to have a similar boost as how he got during the 1 year for the saiyan saga (the same boosts I applied to the other humans, only that Chiaotzu's boost is obviously lower) which was 4 times. Here I put him like 5 times just to make him a bit stronger. It's not that contradictory since he's still far weaker than everybody else. But I put him on a level that manages to at least top most of the Namek arc tier.

Anyway. Here are my lists. Incluiding the Cell Arc.


Mecha Frieza Arc:

[spoiler]Mecha Frieza - 150,000,000

Frieza stated that his power is greater than his previous 100% final form (120,000,000 of power). He also has some confidence in defeating SSJ Goku (150,000,000 of power). I decided to place him at the same power as Goku was, because Frieza also brought his father with him for help. Also I don't think Frieza completely surpassed that version of Goku.


King Cold - 100,000,000

Just a random number. But strong enough to act as assistance to his son against Goku.


King Cold's Soldiers - 1,000 to 2,000

Pretty much like Frieza's soldiers. Nothing important here.


Future Trunks - 3,400,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 170,000,000

Future Trunks is obviously stronger than Mecha Frieza and Namek Saga Goku. Despite the fact that Gohan mentioned the ki was similar to his dad, it could still be just because they are both SSJ's, and obviously they would feel like the same.
Trunks is strong enough to handle Mecha Frieza with ease. Frieza may not be at 100%. But still it's possible he was, because let's remember how the fight between Vegeta and Goku (Kaioken X2) went, they were 18K and 16K respectively, and Vegeta seems to dominate Goku with ease.


Goku - 3,500,000
SSJ Goku - 175,000,000

Goku is stated to be stronger than Future Trunks, since the latter was amazed by his power, and was even stronger than how he expected him to be, that's stated in the manga clearly. He also manages to deflect Trunks's sword with a finger, even though they were holding back, it was still amazing for Trunks. This Goku would also be able to manhadle Mecha Frieza and Trunks with full ease.


Vegeta - 2,800,000

I just made his gains in training similar to Goku's. My number for Vegeta in the Frieza arc was 2,400,000 (for those who don't remember my Frieza arc power level list). He would still probably be higher, possibly at the same power that Goku had back in the Frieza arc (3,000,000).


Piccolo - 2,700,000

I think Piccolo's fusion with Nail probably is what made Piccolo's boosts higher during this part of the series. I don't believe he surpassed Vegeta, but I would say they were quite close. Goku even mentioned Piccolo as first guess of who defeated Frieza. Even though that's not really evidence for me that he surpasses Vegeta, it's still something we should consider.


Gohan - 200,000

I don't think his power changed from his Frieza arc self. He didn't really train that much, since he was more busy with studies. But who knows if he did...? Anyways, it only passed 2 years, so I don't think that's that much for Gohan to have his power declining as much as how he was during the 7 year gap between the Cell and Buu arcs.


Krillin - 120,000

I will admit, I am a Tien > Krillin believer, and I don't want to start one of those silly "Krillin vs Tien" debates since I do want to keep with my own opinion on the matter. HOWEVER, I WILL agree that Krillin was stronger than Tien at the time of this part of the series, as well as the Cell arc. However, I'm still not convinced with the Buu arc, as well as with Dragon Ball Super where I just can't accept that Krillin is stronger than Tien. Probably by the Buu arc maybe (I'm still with doubts though), but definitely not Super, since a lot of time has already happened, and Tien always trains. Krillin's power would also be declining by the time too.

But we should better focus on here. Krillin by the time he died would have 75,000 (since I mentioned in my Frieza arc power level list that I won't accept that number for the first part of the Frieza fight). Later as time went on Earth, Krillin would still be training. And considering his gains would be bigger because of his unlock potential by Guru, he would reach this number of 120,000 (a bit less than the 1.8 multiplier that I give him).


Tenshinhan - 85,000

As I said above, Tien has to be weaker than Krillin here. The reason I put Tien at 85,000 is simple. Considering Goku recieved like a 20 times increase from his training with King Kai. Tien, having Yamcha and Chiaotzu (although the latter is too weak) as partners, as well as how he promised to make better methods of training, aas well as the fact that he trained nearly doubling the days of Goku. I would say his power increased 40 times his old strenght (1,830). That would leave him to 73,200. After a year of training, his power could've increased further more, leaving him to 85,000.


Yamcha - 34,000

This would be a similar case to Tien. This time, since he trained with a stronger Tien at King Kai's planet, and nearly the same amount of Goku's days (136 to 158, not that close but still), he would be reaching 20 times stronger his old strenght (1,480). Leaving him to nearly 30,000. His power would later be at 34,000 since I do think that he still trained, but with gains less than the others.


Chiaotzu - 21,000

Unlike Tien and Yamcha, here Chiaotzu would have less gains in training with King Kai. Instead of a 20 times stronger, he would be 15 times stronger, the reason is because it has been proved that Chiaotzu's gains, no matter how much he trains, are so small. Look his number in the saiyan arc (610), is too low and his difference in gap with Yamcha (the second weakest) has gotten wider. Specially since it's somewhat stated that in the 23rd Budokai that Chiaotzu was already equal, if not above Roshi (who is 139). My personal number I have him for the Raditz arc is 150. A difference of x1.18 in comparison to Yamcha. Later in the saiyan arc, there was a difference in a gap that is more than 2 times. That means that Chiaotzu improved much less than the others.

The same would apply here. His power level would multiply by 15 instead of 20. 30 times (since he trained 260 days like Tien) his old strenght (610) is 18,300. Add a year more of training and would probably reach 21,000.



And that's all. Tell me what you think about these power levels if you agree or disagree. Up next is the Androids Arc.[/spoiler]


Androids Arc:

[spoiler]Android 19 - 140,000,000
Android 19 Post Absorbtion - 160,000,000

Android 20 - 150,000,000
Android 20 Post Absorbtion - 180,000,000

I have the Androids stronger than Frieza, and around Frieza Arc SSJ Goku. The reason is because Android 19 was able to stand up against a Sick Goku who was stronger than his Yadrat self, who was stronger than his Frieza arc self.

Android 19 was stated to be weaker than Android 20 before each one's absorptions.
I also have the levels for Android 19 after absorbing Goku's energy, as well as Android 20 after absorbing Yamcha, Vegeta and Piccolo's energy. Obviously Android 20's boost would be larger than Android 19's.


Android 18 - 370,000,000

Android 17 - 390,000,000

Android 16 - 540,000,000

Android 17 is stated to be stronger than Android 18. They are also much stronger than Vegeta and the others.

Android 16 would be even more stronger than the other 2, as stated in the series.


Goku - 4,900,000
SSJ Goku - 245,000,000
Sick Goku - 3,600,000
SSJ Sick Goku - 180,000,000

Goku's power level has certainly increased. But not that big on an increase, since he was training with Gohan and Piccolo.
Sick Goku is stated to be above Yadrat Goku. So I decided to put him just a bit above in this case.


Vegeta - 5,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 250,000,000

Vegeta was stated by Piccolo and himself to be stronger than Goku. Although the difference is quite small. His boost through training would also be larger than Goku's.


Future Trunks - 4,200,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 210,000,000

Throughout the 3 months of his time, Trunks could have increased his power level, since he was paired up with Goku and Vegeta more than Piccolo. That means that he is stronger than Piccolo in power.


Weighted Piccolo - 157,500,000
Piccolo - 200,000,000

Piccolo with his weights is stronger than Android 19 and 20 pre-absorbtions since Piccolo faked his defeat against Android 20 in order to help Goku against Android 19.

However, after Android 20's absorbtions, Piccolo was in need to remove his weights. That seems to imply that Android 20 post-absorbtions was probably stronger than Weighted Piccolo. Piccolo would still defeat Android 20 easily, much like how Vegeta was defeating Kaioken X2 Goku, or Vegeta defeating Dodoria.

He has to be stronger than Sick Goku, who is stated to be above Yadrat Goku. That means that everyone who says Androids arc Piccolo is still weaker than Frieza or SSJ Goku from the Frieza arc are wrong.


Gohan - 4,000,000

After training with Piccolo and Goku for 3 years. Gohan's strenght should have increased a lot. Like 20 times his old strenght (200,000). He would surpass his father when he was fighting Frieza, but would still be behind the other Base Saiyans (with Trunks being the only one that is more close to his power).


Krillin - 1,200,000

The humans managed to increase their strenght so great in one year during the Saiyan Arc. In Krillin's case from 206 to 1,770. Like 8.5 times his old strenght. In order to keep the humans a bit more relevant, I decided to use that same multiplier for Krillin here. Only that instead of just 8.5, he would get 10 times stronger his old strenght, because of Guru's potential unlock. Also, considering Krillin has his potential unlocked from Guru, his gains on training would be very big in comparison to the other earthlings.

Krillin would be able to surpass Second Form Frieza, but would still be below Frieza Arc Piccolo.


Tien - 650,000

The humans managed to increase their strenght so great in one year during the Saiyan Arc. In Tien's case from 250 to 1,830. Like 7.32 times his old strenght. In order to keep the humans a bit more relevant, I decided to use that same multiplier for Tien here. His power would roughly be between 600,000 and 650,000. I decide to chose 650,000 for this one. His boost is not as high as Krillin's though.

Tien would be able to surpass First Form Frieza, but would still be below Second Form Frieza.


Yamcha - 300,000

The humans managed to increase their strenght so great in one year during the Saiyan Arc. In Yamcha's case from 177 to 1,480. Like 8.36 times his old strenght. In order to keep the humans a bit more relevant, I decided to use that same multiplier for Yamcha here. His power would be between 250,000 and 300,000. More close to 300,000 in my opinion. He would still be a bit less than Tien's 50%.

Yamcha would be able to surpass Frieza Arc Gohan, but would still be below Early Frieza Battle Vegeta, as well as First Form Frieza.


Chiaotzu - 100,000

Unfortunately for Chiaotzu. His power wouldn't be as big as the others (now I know why Tien didn't bring him to the battle field). During the Saiyan Arc, his power only got like 4 times stronger (from 150, my chosen number for him, to 610).

I decided to be a bit generous and put him 5 times stronger. At first I though he would be able to defeat Captain Ginyu, but it turns out he still wouldn't be able to do it, probably only if he relies on his special powers.[/spoiler]


Cell Arc:

[spoiler]Initial Imperfect Cell - 270,000,000

During his first appearance, Cell's power was stated to still be a threat to everyone (incluiding Vegeta) that is not Piccolo. Therefore, his strenght is above Vegeta's.


Weighted Piccolo - 315,000,000
Piccolo - 400,000,000

After fusing with Kami, Piccolo with weights is able to dominate Imperfect Cell. After removing his weights, he is able to go on par with Android 17. I'd put Piccolo just a tiny bit stronger, since Android 17 still has advantages with his speed and stamina, while Piccolo even though he didn't have those he still manages to fight him equally.


Imperfect Cell - 550,000,000

Android 18 - 370,000,000

Android 17 - 390,000,000

Android 16 - 540,000,000

Putting them here again. Only that now more explanation for Android 16. He was stated to be on par with Cell. Although I personally have Cell just a bit stronger. Could go the other way anyway.
The only thing we know is that they are both capable to take down the other two androids and Piccolo easily.


Initial Semi Perfect Cell - 720,000,000
Semi Perfect Cell - 825,000,000

Cell increased more his power after absorbing Android 17. He is far more powerful than before. And even while suppressed, he wasn't hurted at all after Android 16 landed a hit on him.
He also powered up greatly during his fight with ASSJ Vegeta, but it was still nothing in comparison to him.


Vegeta - 15,000,000
SSJ Vegeta - 750,000,000
ASSJ Vegeta - 1,125,000,000

Vegeta increased a lot in power after training in the Room of Spirit and Time. In base, he would still have to be far below even 25% Frieza. But as a SSJ, his power would be able to increase to the point where he surpasses Initial Semi Perfect Cell (but probably not Full Power Semi Perfect Cell), that's because of how Trunks was surprised that Vegeta transforms right into ASSJ.

With ASSJ, his strenght is far above Semi Perfect Cell's full power. I have a 1.5 multiplier for that transformation. Cell was just toyed by Vegeta during the whole fight. Of course, the tables are turned when Cell absorbs Android 18.


Future Trunks - 14,500,000
SSJ Future Trunks - 725,000,000
ASSJ Future Trunks - 1,090,000,000
USSJ Future Trunks - 1,400,000,000

Trunks increased a lot in power after training in the Room of Spirit and Time. He's stated to be weaker than Vegeta, but they are very close in power. He would probably be surpassing Semi Perfect Cell, giving how Vegeta did it and Trunks was just a bit weaker than him.

With ASSJ, he surpasses Semi Perfect Cell's full power just like how his father does. But as a USSJ, he has a very strong power that is able to surpass Cell's holding back power against Vegeta, as stated by the very own Cell. The only problem with the transformation is that is too slow, therefore he couldn't defeat Cell at all.


Warming Up Perfect Cell - 1,100,000,000
Initial Perfect Cell - 1,350,000,000

These versions of Perfect Cell are just his initial versions against Trunks and Vegeta, not the one from the Cell Games.

After absorbing Android 18, Cell's strenght increases even more. And was now just a bit weaker than ASSJ Vegeta according to Android 16. But that was only because Cell was warming up. After showing more of his strenght (the Initial Perfect Cell), Vegeta is defeated easily.

He's also below USSJ Trunks in power, as stated by himself.[/spoiler]

Give your comments about the list. So, that's it. Now we'll move later to the Cell Games Arc!

[apex_pretador]

Do you guys agree with this line?

SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gogeta > Super Boo > Super Gogeta > Super Janemba > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

No, for me it is

Gogeta
Buuhan
SS3 gotenks
Super buu
SS3 goku
SS Gotenks

[RehBeh]

Do you guys agree with this line?

SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gogeta > Super Boo > Super Gogeta > Super Janemba > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

No, for me it is

Gogeta
Buuhan
SS3 gotenks
Super buu
SS3 goku
SS Gotenks

The manga supports the idea that Super Boo (Gohan)>Gogeta to some extent.

[apex_pretador]

Do you guys agree with this line?

SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gogeta > Super Boo > Super Gogeta > Super Janemba > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

No, for me it is

Gogeta
Buuhan
SS3 gotenks
Super buu
SS3 goku
SS Gotenks

The manga supports the idea that Super Boo (Gohan)>Gogeta to some extent.

Not really. A half-assed claim from a cocky villain doesn't matter. He still was claiming he will win when vegetto humiliated him.

[RehBeh]

No, for me it is

Gogeta
Buuhan
SS3 gotenks
Super buu
SS3 goku
SS Gotenks

The manga supports the idea that Super Boo (Gohan)>Gogeta to some extent.

Not really. A half-assed claim from a cocky villain doesn't matter. He still was claiming he will win when vegetto humiliated him.

That's true, however Boo saw the boys fusing and could sense Ki so it's not too farfetched(it is though) to say that he could estimate a hypothetical Gogeta's power.

[apex_pretador]

The manga supports the idea that Super Boo (Gohan)>Gogeta to some extent.

Not really. A half-assed claim from a cocky villain doesn't matter. He still was claiming he will win when vegetto humiliated him.

That's true, however Boo saw the boys fusing and could sense Ki so it's not too farfetched(it is though) to say that he could estimate a hypothetical Gogeta's power.

It is actually far-fetched to suggest that he sensed the kids's power (who were more than likely, suppressed before fusion) since he was too bored to even notice them seriously, and almost all of it was a gag before gotenks turned SS.

[RehBeh]

Not really. A half-assed claim from a cocky villain doesn't matter. He still was claiming he will win when vegetto humiliated him.

That's true, however Boo saw the boys fusing and could sense Ki so it's not too farfetched(it is though) to say that he could estimate a hypothetical Gogeta's power.

It is actually far-fetched to suggest that he sensed the kids's power (who were more than likely, suppressed before fusion) since he was too bored to even notice them seriously, and almost all of it was a gag before gotenks turned SS.

Mmm, that's a good point.

[DBZ Macky]

Speaking of the kids, what do you make of the Daizenshuu 2 entry comparing Gohan and Goten?

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

I have no problem with Post RoSaT kids being stronger than Cell Games Gohan, but that'd have to mean that they're stronger than Piccolo.
With recent material, i.e. Super, it seems that Piccolo is stronger than the kids. So, what do you make of this?

[apex_pretador]

Speaking of the kids, what do you make of the Daizenshuu 2 entry comparing Gohan and Goten?

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

I have no problem with Post RoSaT kids being stronger than Cell Games Gohan, but that'd have to mean that they're stronger than Piccolo.
With recent material, i.e. Super, it seems that Piccolo is stronger than the kids. So, what do you make of this?

It says about base. In super saiyan, even though gohan was totally rusty compared to goten , was trying to not hurt his little brother, still significantly outperformed Goten.