Ideas Don't Matter, Execution Matters

[babaGAReeb 2]

GT was a bad idea executed horribly

it is good as a measuring stick doe
u can tell how smart or dumb a DB fan is just by asking them what they think of GT

[ABED]

it is good as a measuring stick doe
u can tell how smart or dumb a DB fan is just by asking them what they think of GT

I'd be VERY careful about making that sort of assumption.

[babaGAReeb 2]

it is good as a measuring stick doe
u can tell how smart or dumb a DB fan is just by asking them what they think of GT

I'd be VERY careful about making that sort of assumption.

i never been wrong using this technique

i noticed that whoever liked GT was ummmmmmmm how do i call someone retarded in a politically correct way?

[ABED]

it is good as a measuring stick doe
u can tell how smart or dumb a DB fan is just by asking them what they think of GT

I'd be VERY careful about making that sort of assumption.

i never been wrong using this technique

i noticed that whoever liked GT was ummmmmmmm how do i call someone retarded in a politically correct way?

It's not a great series at all, but I still enjoy it none the less. So if that makes me dumb in your eyes then so be it.

[mute_proxy]

it is good as a measuring stick doe
u can tell how smart or dumb a DB fan is just by asking them what they think of GT

I'd be VERY careful about making that sort of assumption.

i never been wrong using this technique

i noticed that whoever liked GT was ummmmmmmm how do i call someone retarded in a politically correct way?

an asshole for the sake of being an asshole, huh?

[Kaboom]

Account strike and more issued, problem dealt with (for now, at least). Let's try to move on and keep the topic rolling.

As for said topic... hoo boy, you're looking at the master of "this kind of sucks, how could it be done better" here. Or at least the guy who comes up with better ideas, even if he has difficulty executing them.

[ekrolo2]

Black deserves a mention as being an iffy idea that turned out really good in the anime. Hell, it's probably one of the few elements, regardless of what its conceptual merits are, Super hasn't botched.

[Asura]

Black deserves a mention as being an iffy idea that turned out really good in the anime. Hell, it's probably one of the few elements, regardless of what its conceptual merits are, Super hasn't botched.

I wonder though, was Black a bad idea that turned out really good, or is it an idea that we were mischaracterizing in our heads, and thus when we saw the finished product, thought it was incredible because it wasn't what we expected?

I mean, the premise that Black was a bad idea stems from the idea of an Evil Goku, except that's not at all what Black was. He was just someone else with Goku's face. Was Black really a bad idea to begin with if the bad idea we associated him with wasn't even part of his character? It's not like it was an Evil Goku done well, it wasn't an Evil Goku at all. So can we really say that Black was a bad idea with a great execution of an Evil Goku if that's not what the character even was?

[GigaDrill]

Ideas matter; execution matters more

GT had some poor execution of good ideas, but the ideas themselves should still deserve some attention.

[ekrolo2]

Black deserves a mention as being an iffy idea that turned out really good in the anime. Hell, it's probably one of the few elements, regardless of what its conceptual merits are, Super hasn't botched.

I wonder though, was Black a bad idea that turned out really good, or is it an idea that we were mischaracterizing in our heads, and thus when we saw the finished product, thought it was incredible because it wasn't what we expected?

I mean, the premise that Black was a bad idea stems from the idea of an Evil Goku, except that's not at all what Black was. He was just someone else with Goku's face. Was Black really a bad idea to begin with if the bad idea we associated him with wasn't even part of his character? It's not like it was an Evil Goku done well, it wasn't an Evil Goku at all. So can we really say that Black was a bad idea with a great execution of an Evil Goku if that's not what the character even was?

I don't think an Evil Goku is a bad idea because Cell is essentially that and everyone loves the shit out of him. Beerus in the first arc of Super is also kind of an Evil Goku in that he's a fighting junkie who's lived for so long without a challenge that a worthless, piece of shit scrub like SSGod Goku is exciting for him.

You are right that Black is only evil in the sense that he's a bad person using Goku's body & power to do evil things and his actual personality doesn't really have anything in common with the genuine article bar a desire to get stronger. But still, the whole buzz for him is that he's a "canon" Evil Goku, it was one of the big selling points of the whole Trunks arc besides Trunks himself coming back.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

i noticed that whoever liked GT was ummmmmmmm how do i call someone retarded in a politically correct way?

You don't, because GT was a masterpiece.

[Kokonoe]

It also doesn't help that it's entire point, of Goku not being around to help save the world, is totally defeated by the end of the Cell arc essentially going "We're all better off without Goku!"

That's not even what happened, though. Goku trained Gohan and thus Gohan was able to reach new heights, and because Trunks came back and saved Goku, this happened.

If Goku had died in the first place due to the heart failure, so many events wouldn't have occurred and they would've most assuredly lost when Androids 17 and 18 arrive.

[Hyena_Yamcha]

i think ideas does matter but the execution is more important

in my opinion dragon ball's first arc idea wasn't that interesting but it turned out to be super fun because it was executed well

[Hyena_Yamcha]

it is good as a measuring stick doe
u can tell how smart or dumb a DB fan is just by asking them what they think of GT

I'd be VERY careful about making that sort of assumption.

i never been wrong using this technique

i noticed that whoever liked GT was ummmmmmmm how do i call someone retarded in a politically correct way?

GT was somehow good in my opinion , i don't care what you would call me

[Rukawa11]

The buildup to Goku and Vegeta fusing against Super Boo was amazing. Vegetto vs. Super Boo, however, was a real letdown. This would be a good idea executed badly. The opposite would be DBGT: lots of promise in the first two episodes, but it all evaporated the instant Pan hit the takeoff button and left Goten looking like the biggest idiot in the franchise's history. That being said, DBGT isn't a bad series. It actually had plenty of things on Super until the latter introduced Goku Black and Zamasu.

[ABED]

The buildup to Goku and Vegeta fusing against Super Boo was amazing. Vegetto vs. Super Boo, however, was a real letdown. This would be a good idea executed badly. The opposite would be DBGT: lots of promise in the first two episodes, but it all evaporated the instant Pan hit the takeoff button and left Goten looking like the biggest idiot in the franchise's history. That being said, DBGT isn't a bad series. It actually had plenty of things on Super until the latter introduced Goku Black and Zamasu.

GT's promise evaporated because of GOTEN?!

[Rukawa11]

GT's promise evaporated because of GOTEN?!

Not all promise, but some.

Now bear with me as I go slightly off topic with regards to Goten.

Whether it's Gohan or Goten, it's becoming increasingly easy to forget that they're Son Goku's children. Look at it this way, before Goten's lousy image in DBGT had taken hold of our minds, what could've stopped him from becoming a great character? By the end of the Boo arc, he could turn ssj at 6. He's Goku's son and he resembles him in appearance and personality way more than kid Gohan did and many testify to this in DBZ.

If we think strictly of how Goten had turned out in DBGT (and the fact that he's so neglected in Super to an extent where Toriyama/Toei may as well be saying, "If only we never wrote this character"), then obviously he wouldn't have the potential to make DBGT any better. But if we think of what Goten ought to have become, then that's a different story.
If Gohan had a shot at surpassing everyone and beating Cell, then Goten should've received similar spotlight if only the franchise hadn't undergone a major priority reset after Goku returned to life against Kid Boo.

Let's look at Super so far. Like GT, t's literally been all Goku (with the addition of Vegeta) from start to finish. Things weren't that way in DBZ, where both Vegeta and Goku had long spells on the sidelines in Freeza, Cell, and Boo arcs, allowing Gohan or Piccolo or Future Trunks or Gotenks to battle different forms of the main villains. What I'm trying to say is (you may have to dissect the sentence cause I can't put it any other way): if Goten had lasted longer in a period preceding Toei's post-Kid Boo mindset of milking fan-favorites Goku and Vegeta for everything that they are (and aren't), then things surely would've been different for him.

I wish to clarify that not everyone is happy with Toei's rendition of Gohan and Goten in DBGT and Super. Many including myself prefer discussing these two characters based on how they were by the end of the Boo arc (which was really the end of canon material). Gohan was the strongest unfused character near the end of Z, and suffering a single humiliation at the hands of Super Gotenks-Boo shouldn't have led him to give up fighting (especially when, during his Z Sword training, he'd clearly said he wanted to be more like Goku who never neglected his training even in death). Goten, on the other hand, was the strongest 6-year old Saiyan in history, and was touted to surpass everybody else. Goku's sons had so much potential that their father had killed.

It amazes me how there's yet to be a consensus among fans that Gohan and Goten were made into irrelevant weaklings because making them anything better would threaten Goku's position as the strongest and natural choice for defeating the villains (he wasn't natural choice in all of DBZ).

[ABED]

Yes, he's a lot like Goku, but we've already got a Goku. Pan may have been annoying, but I think it was a far better idea to use her as a central character than to use Goten.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Yes, he's a lot like Goku, but we've already got a Goku. Pan may have been annoying, but I think it was a far better idea to use her as a central character than to use Goten.

Where does the notion that Pan is annoying come from, I wonder. She's an emotional insert, that's really all she ever was, but she played that part incredibly for the type of show GT was. Is it just the fact that she has detectable emotions? I honestly cannot comprehend people's problem with GT Pan.

[Bansho64]

Where does the notion that Pan is annoying come from, I wonder. She's an emotional insert, that's really all she ever was, but she played that part incredibly for the type of show GT was. Is it just the fact that she has detectable emotions? I honestly cannot comprehend people's problem with GT Pan.

The main reason I disliked her when I was younger was her voice. I remember that, whenever I was watching GT on Nicktoons on Toonami when I was younger, I would always get irritated by it. I couldn't stand the nasally old lady sound that I felt it had. It still annoys me lol. After watching the original version years later, I liked and tolerated her a lot more than I had when I heard her FUNi voice. I've met others who didn't like her because of it as well.