"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
If was to make a guess I could say both Vegetto and Beerus should be equals in the manga
Power levels are not just big numbers:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Blue Vegetto should be much, much stronger than Beerus. SSG Goku is equal with 60% Beerus, and SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together can rival Beerus at full power, while Blue Vegetto should be hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku & SS Vegeta, based on how strong Super Vegetto was compared to SS Goku & SS Vegeta. Beerus may be much stronger than SS3 Vegetto would have been, but he should be nothing compared to Blue Vegetto. Kaioshin is most likely wondering who is stronger because he hasn't witnessed Beerus' full power and only has an idea of it in his head.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Nope. In the movies, not in super.Blue Vegetto should be much, much stronger than Beerus. SSG Goku is equal with 60% Beerus, and SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together can rival Beerus at full power,
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Powerwise Buu really wasn't all that impressive. If he wasn't basically indestructible Majin Vegeta probably would have beaten him. Even Cell wasn't that impressive against Goku and if he had normal physiology he would have been dead in the first round. Let's face it, Cell and Buu basically relied on their physical makeups and "hacks" rather than actually overwhelming them significantly power and fighting technique wise.supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
shin has a concept of both their powers and sees them as close and SSG is not 60% of Beerus take that nonsense somewhere else pleasesupersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
piccolo would be capable of seeing who is stronger that is like the dumbest example ever
SSJ2 majin vegeta power level 100,000,00
Kid gohan 30,000
yet piccolo can't tell who is stronger what?
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Looking far to into thisDBZGTKOSDH wrote:Blue Vegetto should be much, much stronger than Beerus. SSG Goku is equal with 60% Beerus, and SSB Goku & SSB Vegeta together can rival Beerus at full power, while Blue Vegetto should be hundreds of times stronger than SSB Goku & SS Vegeta, based on how strong Super Vegetto was compared to SS Goku & SS Vegeta. Beerus may be much stronger than SS3 Vegetto would have been, but he should be nothing compared to Blue Vegetto. Kaioshin is most likely wondering who is stronger because he hasn't witnessed Beerus' full power and only has an idea of it in his head.
1) he never used 60%
2) shin has sensed enough of Beerus to conclude they are close in power
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Sure this is true, but when it came down to it, Majin Boo did overpower Majin Vegeta and beat the living tar out of him by using his significantly higher power in combination with his unique physical build.TheMikado wrote:Powerwise Buu really wasn't all that impressive. If he wasn't basically indestructible Majin Vegeta probably would have beaten him. Even Cell wasn't that impressive against Goku and if he had normal physiology he would have been dead in the first round. Let's face it, Cell and Buu basically relied on their physical makeups and "hacks" rather than actually overwhelming them significantly power and fighting technique wise.supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Shin's statement doesn't imply what kind of gap exists between Vegito and Beerus, so his statement is irrelevant to your point. You can't prove why he said "might" as that has never been used to quantify a gap between 2 fighters in any instance. As stated by Toriyama, SSJG Goku was 60% of Beerus. Rage boosted Vegeta was strong enough to force Beerus to 10%.ryan s wrote:shin has a concept of both their powers and sees them as close and SSG is not 60% of Beerus take that nonsense somewhere else pleasesupersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
piccolo would be capable of seeing who is stronger that is like the dumbest example ever
SSJ2 majin vegeta power level 100,000,00
Kid gohan 30,000
yet piccolo can't tell who is stronger what?
We have already seen this happen, specifically in the case of Goku vs Freeza on Namek where it's stated that their powers were beyond Piccolo's comprehension. When the gap between fighters are so extreme, the powers end up being beyond the comprehension of the weaker ones. Nothing implies that Majin Vegeta is extremely close to Kid Gohan in power, but nothing implies that he far surpasses Gohan either.
All Shin & Piccolo's statement means is that they think that fighter A surpasses fighter B.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Again with this 60%? Is a movie statement, irrelevant with super ._.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
it implies a small gap as he can't conclude who is stronger despite sensing both, what are you on about? he can clearly sense battle powers something that has been done all the time in dragon and defines who is stronger, the fact that he uses "might" clearly shows a small difference you're just being a vegetto fanboy.supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Shin's statement doesn't imply what kind of gap exists between Vegito and Beerus, so his statement is irrelevant to your point. You can't prove why he said "might" as that has never been used to quantify a gap between 2 fighters in any instance. As stated by Toriyama, SSJG Goku was 60% of Beerus. Rage boosted Vegeta was strong enough to force Beerus to 10%.ryan s wrote:shin has a concept of both their powers and sees them as close and SSG is not 60% of Beerus take that nonsense somewhere else pleasesupersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
piccolo would be capable of seeing who is stronger that is like the dumbest example ever
SSJ2 majin vegeta power level 100,000,00
Kid gohan 30,000
yet piccolo can't tell who is stronger what?
We have already seen this happen, specifically in the case of Goku vs Freeza on Namek where it's stated that their powers were beyond Piccolo's comprehension. When the gap between fighters are so extreme, the powers end up being beyond the comprehension of the weaker ones. Nothing implies that Majin Vegeta is extremely close to Kid Gohan in power, but nothing implies that he far surpasses Gohan either.
All Shin & Piccolo's statement means is that they think that fighter A surpasses fighter B.
again poor logic we know kaioken x10 Goku is below Beerus yet SSG = 60% surely you can figure that out yourself. what nonsense are you talking about? piccolo could easily sense the difference between SSJ2 vegeta and Gohan.... i have never heard anything so utterly stupid. gowosu and the supreme kai in the anime sensed merged zamasu and could specify how much his battle power increased and concluded that Goku and Vegeta are in trouble and could not believe how powerful zamasu became again nothing new in dragon ball and piccolo later could sense the gap between Goku and frieza getting bigger as stated himself when frieza was not suppressing himself to Gokus level what poor logic used here
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
No, it could also mean that both powers are so high that it's beyond the scope that Shin can accurately measure. Vegeta had no doubts over his power being superior to Gohan's. He knows that he is superior with no doubt. Piccolo was uncertain.ryan s wrote: it implies a small gap as he can't conclude who is stronger despite sensing both, what are you on about? he can clearly sense battle powers something that has been done all the time in dragon and defines who is stronger, the fact that he uses might clearly shows a small difference just being a vegetto fanboy
again poor logic we know kaioken x10 Goku is below Beerus yet SSG = 60% surely you can figure that out yourself. what nonsense are you talking about? piccolo could easily sense the difference between vegeta and Gohan i have neve rheard anything so utterly stupid. gowsu in ther anime sensed merged zamasu and could specify how much his battle power increased again nothing new in dragon ball and piccolo later could sense the gap between Goku and frieza getting bigger as frieza was suppressing himself what poor logic used here
Kaioken Goku was never stated to be below Beerus. If SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus according to Toriyama, then it should be obvious that SSB Kaioken isn't weaker than him. Beerus and Whis's dialogue doesn't imply that anyway. Gowasu didn't measure anything. Him and Shin stated that Merged Zamasu was beyond their ability to comprehend. Gowasu himself stated that Zamasu's power was endless, so he isn't comprehending it at all.
Piccolo stated that Goku & Freeza were above his comprehension and only concluded that Freeza was stronger because he saw Goku losing.
You can't call me a fanboy, then ignore Toriyama's placement of where Beerus stands as well as any statement revolving around how much power he uses. That's pure stupidity.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Neither of these examples are trueTheMikado wrote:Powerwise Buu really wasn't all that impressive. If he wasn't basically indestructible Majin Vegeta probably would have beaten him. Even Cell wasn't that impressive against Goku and if he had normal physiology he would have been dead in the first round. Let's face it, Cell and Buu basically relied on their physical makeups and "hacks" rather than actually overwhelming them significantly power and fighting technique wise.supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:I've seen a lot of people try to claim that there's only a paper thin difference between Vegito & Beerus because Shin said "might". Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me and sounds like a reach because that's never what it meant when similar situations arose in the story. Shin saying "might" doesn't do anything when it comes to implying that they're close. All it means is that Shin is uncertain.
No different than Piccolo saying that Majin Vegeta is "perhaps" stronger than Kid Gohan, but Vegeta himself knows that he's superior without a doubt. It's like an ant looking up at 2 skyscrapers trying to determine which is taller.
Then there's the fact that Merged Zamasu with his Halo was stated to be above the Gods, so Vegito is also above the Gods as well. Zamasu then got stronger through the Light of Justice, surpassing his previous level that was stated to be above the Gods by the Kaioshin, yet Vegito still held the edge against him.
SSB Vegito>Merged Zamasu(Light of Justice)>Merged Zamasu(Halo)>Beerus.
SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus, and Vegito is many times stronger than Goku & Vegeta, so no there isn't any way that Vegito is a rival to Beerus.
Both Buu and Cell held back significantly against their weaker opponents.
Cell was fighting on Goku's level, when Cell showed his true power against Gohan, even Goku was shaking in amazement
Buu wasn't really fighting Vegeta and just getting wailed on. When Buu actually felt pain, he powered up and Vegeta was helpless.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
For the Vegetto/Beerus debate, in the manga Vegetto is stronger or on par with Beerus. The line was put there to let the reader know where Vegetto stands. It wasn't put there just to be "he's wrong, I'm making him say it for no reason"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
I don't know what the conversations always devolve into this, but please keep the strength debates in the respective threads. Thanks.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Great chapter, imo. I have to give the manga the edge over the anime, mainly due to Toyataro drawing the manga much better than Toei animates on a consistent basis. The manga just looks more aesthetically pleasing.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Well...Vegetto was about to fire a plasma attack in a battle of physical might.Cipher wrote:In what context?Miracles wrote:Vegetto > Beerus.
If we're talking about who's more purple, Beerus > Vegetto easily.
If they're rooming together in a hostel and Vegetto takes top bunk, though, Vegetto/Beerus.
If we're trying to determine the area under a graph of function f bordered by Vegetto and Beerus, then ∫ Vegetto^Beerus f(x) dx.
So...In the context of battle power.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Well to be fair, it was understandable in this chapter, since the characters brought up the comparison againTheDevilsCorpse wrote:I don't know what the conversations always devolve into this, but please keep the strength debates in the respective threads. Thanks.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
pure stupidity is what you are being right nowsupersaiyangodgogeta wrote:No, it could also mean that both powers are so high that it's beyond the scope that Shin can accurately measure. Vegeta had no doubts over his power being superior to Gohan's. He knows that he is superior with no doubt. Piccolo was uncertain.ryan s wrote: it implies a small gap as he can't conclude who is stronger despite sensing both, what are you on about? he can clearly sense battle powers something that has been done all the time in dragon and defines who is stronger, the fact that he uses might clearly shows a small difference just being a vegetto fanboy
again poor logic we know kaioken x10 Goku is below Beerus yet SSG = 60% surely you can figure that out yourself. what nonsense are you talking about? piccolo could easily sense the difference between vegeta and Gohan i have neve rheard anything so utterly stupid. gowsu in ther anime sensed merged zamasu and could specify how much his battle power increased again nothing new in dragon ball and piccolo later could sense the gap between Goku and frieza getting bigger as frieza was suppressing himself what poor logic used here
Kaioken Goku was never stated to be below Beerus. If SSJG Goku is 60% of Beerus according to Toriyama, then it should be obvious that SSB Kaioken isn't weaker than him. Beerus and Whis's dialogue doesn't imply that anyway. Gowasu didn't measure anything. Him and Shin stated that Merged Zamasu was beyond their ability to comprehend. Gowasu himself stated that Zamasu's power was endless, so he isn't comprehending it at all.
Piccolo stated that Goku & Freeza were above his comprehension and only concluded that Freeza was stronger because he saw Goku losing.
You can't call me a fanboy, then ignore Toriyama's placement of where Beerus stands as well as any statement revolving around how much power he uses. That's pure stupidity.
you use one poor example to justify yourself, piccolo was fine sensing the difference between SSJ2 Gohan and cell and Goku and cell and Assj Vegeta stating his power was still rising yet you use a example of a suppressed frieza where piccolo states the gap between their powers is widening for all piccolo knows Goku was just tired, we also have shin sensing SSJ3 Goku
Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P7.8, P8.1-2
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 3
Gohan: “”Th-this ki…Don’t tell me…it’s father?...No…It’s not…”
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s right…It’s Son Goku…! Th-this truly is absolutely incredible energy…”
Kibito: “Ab-absolutely unbelievable…To think that his power would reach as far as this sacred region.”
he has better ki comprehension than Gohan
gowasu clearly measured zamasu's ki "his power expanded to no end" the fact that he can tell that shows he can measure it just not put a number to it.... Trunks "the fusion between father and goku san what unbelievable ki" clearly can measure it
SSB Goku is stronger than his kaioken x10 self, evidenced by when he fought a much stronger hit and vegeta is on the same level and still begged before beerus showing the crap 60% line is debunked
piccolo clearly felt both their power levels and inferred frieza was stronger as evidenced when Goku used the kaioken x20 and frieza withstood it thus showing Goku and the gang frieza was suppressed obviously unless you ant to argue Goku couldn't tell? frieza was clearly doing short burst of his power and Goku fought he was bluffing
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread
Sensing ki and recognizing it as a big ki doesn't mean you can comprehend it, just like Piccolo stated that he couldn't comprehend Goku or Freeza's power despite sensing them both as big kis.ryan s wrote: pure stupidity is what you are being right now
you use one poor example to justify yourself, piccolo was fine sensing the difference between SSJ2 Gohan and cell and Goku and cell and Assj Vegeta stating his power was still rising yet you use a example of a suppressed frieza where piccolo states the gap between their powers is widening for all piccolo knows Goku was just tired, we also have shin sensing SSJ3 Goku
Piccolo didn't know the difference between Gohan and Cell until he visually saw the gap. None of the Z-fighters knew who would win between Gohan & Cell.
All he says is that Goku's ki is incredible. That's not comprehending it. Where is he shown comprehending Goku's power and where was it shown that his ki comprehension skills are greater than Gohan's?Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P7.8, P8.1-2
Context: after Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan 3
Gohan: “”Th-this ki…Don’t tell me…it’s father?...No…It’s not…”
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s right…It’s Son Goku…! Th-this truly is absolutely incredible energy…”
Kibito: “Ab-absolutely unbelievable…To think that his power would reach as far as this sacred region.”
he has better ki comprehension than Gohan
If he can't pinpoint it's level then he can't measure it by definition, therefore it's beyond his comprehension. It was already stated by Gowasu and Shin that Merged Zamasu was beyond their comprehension, so once again you're wrong.gowasu clearly measured zamasu's ki "his power expanded to no end" the fact that he can tell that shows he can measure it just not put a number to it.... Trunks "the fusion between father and goku san what unbelievable ki" clearly can measure it
Not sure where you're getting the idea that Goku got over 10x stronger, but 6-10-15 debunks that nonsense anyway so it's moot.SSB Goku is stronger than his kaioken x10 self, evidenced by when he fought a much stronger hit and vegeta is on the same level and still begged before beerus showing the crap 60% line is debunked
Piccolo couldn't even tell which one of them were stronger until they fought. So yes he needed to visually see the 3,000,000-60,000,000 gap with his own eyes since he couldn't comprehend either power.piccolo clearly felt both their power levels and inferred frieza was stronger as evidenced when Goku used the kaioken x20 and frieza withstood it thus showing Goku and the gang frieza was suppressed obviously unless you ant to argue Goku couldn't tell? frieza was clearly doing short burst of his power and Goku fought he was bluffing