Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was never a match against Goku. All Goku did was blocked and catch Trunks' fists in mid-attack. By this logic Krillin is a match for Super Saiyan since he actually made Goku move. Heck, Roshi made Goku move more than Trunks. Skinny Buu did more than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. How can you say they were evenly match?

Yes, he was.

See the manga fight. Goku is blocking with his finger Trunks sword attacks and Whis still called Trunks the strongest.

Catching Trunks fists means nothing in comparison. Trunks was also not going all out.

The manga and the anime have two different power scales so you can't just used one to justify the others. The manga has Super Saiyan 2 Trunks even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 being a match for Super Saiyan 1/2 Black, and Goku and Vegeta both using Super Saiyan God. The manga also has Future Zamasu weaker than Trunks while anime Zamasu can trade blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

Goku did nothing against Trunks. He didn't even bother to dodge. So in the anime, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks isn't even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

I'm not using their powers as an example. I'm using the way they fought.

Trunks was stronger and Goku still blocked with his finger the attacks. So catching someone fits is no way an indication they are stronger.

In any case debating this is a waste of time. Goku was not stated to hold back, Trunks was. It's as clear cut as it can be.

[HeroR]

I agree with everything except Future Zamasu. Even in the anime I never got the impression he was nearly as strong as Goku, Vegeta or Black.

He was in the same tier as them. Future Zamasu blocked Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku's attack, pushed his down, and forced Goku to evade. If he wasn't within that power range, Goku should have floored him like he did Present Zamasu.

[Bullza]

He's the producer of that arc giving him more authority than anyone outside of Toriyama when it comes to the anime. He approves of every script and what the story will be. Meaning, what he says is basically word of god unless Toriyama chimes in and he called Black the strongest character after Beerus if you don't count fusions. It also wasn't said as an unknown since he was asked who was strongest out of everyone in the poster, and he named Black the strongest despite him not even being in the picture. Meaning, that he didn't want to say if Vegetto or Merged Zamasu was the strongest, but he had no problem naming Black. We also saw Black surpassed his own limits before fusing and he was screwing with Goku and Vegeta.

At this point, trying to say Black wasn't the strongest is just denial.

It was still just his opinion and depending on when the comment was said it would be correct anyway. He never said "if you don't count fusions". He was asked who was the strongest and the producer just said

The God of Destruction Beerus is overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black. I’d say he’s used Son Goku’s power as a base and evolved in his own, unique way.

Black obviously was not stronger than Merged Zamasu who was described as having Black and Zamasu's power combined and then expanded upon.

And Goku overpowered him. Obviously Black wouldn't have done the same.

Either way this had little to do with the what I was getting at with Goku and Vegeta definitely being far superior to Golden Frieza.

[HeroR]

I'm not using their powers as an example. I'm using the way they fought.

Trunks was stronger and Goku still blocked with his finger the attacks. So catching someone fits is no way an indication they are stronger.

In any case this is a waste of time. Goku was not stated to hold back, Trunks was. It's as clear cut as it can be.

One, that's Toyo. Using another media to prove your point in a different media with different writers doesn't work. Because no one in the anime is Toyo and they are not thinking the same as him.

That work both ways since it was never stated he was going all out either. And Trunks may have been holding back, but that doesn't prove that he was equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Especially since Goku did nothing but block. An even match against a suppressed opponent would be 17 vs. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. By the end were left thinking that they maybe equals. The fight with Super Saiyan 2 Trunks didn't for the reasons I named.

[Bullza]

I agree with everything except Future Zamasu. Even in the anime I never got the impression he was nearly as strong as Goku, Vegeta or Black.

Yeah Zamasu is a chump. In the manga he's nowhere close to their level, he's even inferior to Trunks. The same appears to be true in the anime aswell.

He's nowhere near Blue Tier. Probably closest to SSJ2 Tier, a bit under perhaps. He got beat by SSJ2 Goku and then SSJ2 Trunks got the upper hand over him aswell. Trunks was fine to hold him off as a regular SSJ2 whereas he needed the Rage form to fight against Black.

[HeroR]

It was still just his opinion and depending on when the comment was said it would be correct anyway. He never said "if you don't count fusions". He was asked who was the strongest and the producer just said

The God of Destruction Beerus is overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black. I’d say he’s used Son Goku’s power as a base and evolved in his own, unique way.

Black obviously was not stronger than Merged Zamasu who was described as having Black and Zamasu's power combined and then expanded upon.

And Goku overpowered him. Obviously Black wouldn't have done the same.

Either way this had little to do with the what I was getting at with Goku and Vegeta definitely being far superior to Golden Frieza.

It wasn't just his opinion since he works on the show. He approves the story and tells the writers what to writes. He isn't some fan giving his opinion.

Fuses are obvious. It doesn't need to be said since as you said, he's part of Merged Zamasu.

And you have proof of that? Especially since Merged Zamasu was suppressed and Goku broke his arms.

Black is the strongest. Unless Toriyama said otherwise, that's pretty much word of God.

I agree with everything except Future Zamasu. Even in the anime I never got the impression he was nearly as strong as Goku, Vegeta or Black.

Yeah Zamasu is a chump. In the manga he's nowhere close to their level, he's even inferior to Trunks. The same appears to be true in the anime aswell.

He's nowhere near Blue Tier. Probably closest to SSJ2 Tier, a bit under perhaps. He got beat by SSJ2 Goku and then SSJ2 Trunks got the upper hand over him aswell. Trunks was fine to hold him off as a regular SSJ2 whereas he needed the Rage form to fight against Black.

Future Zamasu in the anime managed to push Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. If he was only as strong as Present Zamasu Goku should have easily beating him in their first encounter. And Goku beat up Present Zamasu as a Super Saiyan 2, not Future Zamasu. And it was stated several times in the anime Future Zamasu drops his guard because of his immortality. And when he stabbed Zamasu, he also kicked Black into a building after dueling him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku nor Vegeta were stronger than Black at the end of the saga. He is officially recognized as the strongest character after Beerus if we don't count the fusions.

That was said by a producer, it was just what he thought and was said as of an unknown point in the story.

He's the producer of that arc giving him more authority than anyone outside of Toriyama when it comes to the anime. He approves of every script and what the story will be. Meaning, what he says is basically word of god unless Toriyama chimes in and he called Black the strongest character after Beerus if you don't count fusions. It also wasn't said as an unknown since he was asked who was strongest out of everyone in the poster, and he named Black the strongest despite him not even being in the picture. Meaning, that he didn't want to say if Vegetto or Merged Zamasu was the strongest, but he had no problem naming Black. We also saw Black surpassed his own limits before fusing and he was screwing with Goku and Vegeta.

At this point, trying to say Black wasn't the strongest is just denial.

Still, it was the opinion of only one of the producers. And the only justification given for this is that '' Black, based on the power of Son Goku, has evolved in a unique way. ''
He does not even cite his powers or the strength he possessed at that moment.
One of the producers also said that he considered Goku "Legendary Super Saiyan", should we take that as absolute truth? We saw how different anime is from manga, and considering that Toriyama has more participation in the manga, we realize that Toei modified several things in the script.
If Toei creates so many inconsistencies with fighting powers, how can he take what this producer says seriously, only his opinion?
Even after fighting Black's clones, we see Vegeta talking that he and Goku would take care of Black and Zamasu, implying that they could actually do it (they were not even shaken). His scythe was just a Rage Boost.

However, even if Black is considered to be stronger in his Saga, it has been about a year since the end of it. Goku and vegeta are alive, so naturally they continue to train (offering food to Whis as we saw in the murder episode Of goku and at the beginning of the Saga of the tournament), while Black is dead and stopped evolving.

This is because Vegeta will re-enter RoSaT and Goku has the Kaioken

[Marlowe89]

But it doesn't explain why this ki is special and Goku supposedly can't used golden Super Saiyan with it. It isn't God ki, so what it?

I don't know why "Godly power" is distinct from normal power, I'm just saying that's what the blurb implies. One could argue that some super-mechanistic explanation of how Godly power works is already pretty redundant in a show about spiritual ki abilities and changing hair colors.

If Super Saiyan Blue is the direct result of Saiyans with Godly power changing into Super Saiyan, the only natural conclusion is that the yellow Super Saiyan forms arise from a separate state of power, which is what the blurb indeed suggests when it says that Goku and Vegeta needed to gain control over Godly power. Sometimes we just have to take everything as it's given to us. I don't know if Toei's intentions for the RoF film is the same as their intentions for Super, but it seems to have been intended at some point at least.

[HeroR]

Still, it was the opinion of only one of the producers. And the only justification given for this is that '' Black, based on the power of Son Goku, has evolved in a unique way. ''
He does not even cite his powers or the strength he possessed at that moment.
One of the producers also said that he considered Goku "Legendary Super Saiyan", should we take that as absolute truth? We saw how different anime is from manga, and considering that Toriyama has more participation in the manga, we realize that Toei modified several things in the script.
If Toei creates so many inconsistencies with fighting powers, how can he take what this producer says seriously, only his opinion?
Even after fighting Black's clones, we see Vegeta talking that he and Goku would take care of Black and Zamasu, implying that they could actually do it (they were not even shaken). His scythe was just a Rage Boost.

However, even if Black is considered to be stronger in his Saga, it has been about a year since the end of it. Goku and vegeta are alive, so naturally they continue to train (offering food to Whis as we saw in the murder episode Of goku and at the beginning of the Saga of the tournament), while Black is dead and stopped evolving.

This is because Vegeta will re-enter RoSaT and Goku has the Kaioken

He created the story from Toriyama's outline. So no. It isn't just his opinion. He has the final word on the anime.

In the manga, Goku is the legendary Super Saiyan. Even so, he didn't write the origanal manga or was involved in the story creation.

The anime and manga follows a bare bone outline that the fill in their own ways. And since Toriyama's approves of everything in both, Black is the strongest in the anime. And it was never said Toriyama is involved more in the manga. You made that up.

They couldn't get by the clones why Black stood them laughing at then. And it wasn't just a rage boost since Black said his power had evolved past his understanding.

We can assumed, but all you have are assumptions.

[ZombieVito]

I agree with everything except Future Zamasu. Even in the anime I never got the impression he was nearly as strong as Goku, Vegeta or Black.

Yeah Zamasu is a chump. In the manga he's nowhere close to their level, he's even inferior to Trunks. The same appears to be true in the anime aswell.

He's nowhere near Blue Tier. Probably closest to SSJ2 Tier, a bit under perhaps. He got beat by SSJ2 Goku and then SSJ2 Trunks got the upper hand over him aswell. Trunks was fine to hold him off as a regular SSJ2 whereas he needed the Rage form to fight against Black.

I agree with all of this. He shouldn't be stronger than base Black. it doesn't make sense story wise.

F. Zamasu: Why did you changed your body for that mortal's past me?
Black: To get stronger!
F. Zamasu: But I'm multiple times stronger than you now... Why didn't you just train?
Black: Oh crap....

[LowRyder2005]

But it doesn't explain why this ki is special and Goku supposedly can't used golden Super Saiyan with it. It isn't God ki, so what it?

I don't know why "Godly power" is distinct from normal power, I'm just saying that's what the blurb implies. One could argue that some super-mechanistic explanation of how Godly power works is already pretty redundant in a show about spiritual ki abilities and changing hair colors.

If Super Saiyan Blue is the direct result of Saiyans with Godly power changing into Super Saiyan, the only natural conclusion is that the yellow Super Saiyan forms arise from a separate state of power, which is what the blurb indeed suggests when it says that Goku and Vegeta needed to gain control over Godly power. Sometimes we just have to take everything as it's given to us. I don't know if Toei's intentions for the RoF film is the same as their intentions for Super, but it seems to have been intended at some point at least.

I suppose this is as eloquently put as it can possibly get.

The gist is that the article clearly states the regular outcome of going Super Saiyan (which was... well, tautologically, going Super Saiyan) was now superseded by "Super Saiyan Blue" in the case of a "god-like Saiyan transforming". It didn't just state that "a god-like Saiyan can now transform into a Super Saiyan Blue".

Unless we started to debate on the very specific terminology of, say, "giving birth", the simplest and less counter-intuitive explanation is that, at some point, Super Saiyan Blue had the necessary implication of overriding the regular Super Saiyan as long as a godly Saiyan was transforming. Which isn't anything new per se, since it's pretty much implied by Goku in the movie itself.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Still, it was the opinion of only one of the producers. And the only justification given for this is that '' Black, based on the power of Son Goku, has evolved in a unique way. ''
He does not even cite his powers or the strength he possessed at that moment.
One of the producers also said that he considered Goku "Legendary Super Saiyan", should we take that as absolute truth? We saw how different anime is from manga, and considering that Toriyama has more participation in the manga, we realize that Toei modified several things in the script.
If Toei creates so many inconsistencies with fighting powers, how can he take what this producer says seriously, only his opinion?
Even after fighting Black's clones, we see Vegeta talking that he and Goku would take care of Black and Zamasu, implying that they could actually do it (they were not even shaken). His scythe was just a Rage Boost.

However, even if Black is considered to be stronger in his Saga, it has been about a year since the end of it. Goku and vegeta are alive, so naturally they continue to train (offering food to Whis as we saw in the murder episode Of goku and at the beginning of the Saga of the tournament), while Black is dead and stopped evolving.

This is because Vegeta will re-enter RoSaT and Goku has the Kaioken

He created the story from Toriyama's outline. So no. It isn't just his opinion. He has the final word on the anime.

In the manga, Goku is the legendary Super Saiyan. Even so, he didn't write the origanal manga or was involved in the story creation.

The anime and manga follows a bare bone outline that the fill in their own ways. And since Toriyama's approves of everything in both, Black is the strongest in the anime. And it was never said Toriyama is involved more in the manga. You made that up.

They couldn't get by the clones why Black stood them laughing at then. And it wasn't just a rage boost since Black said his power had evolved past his understanding.

We can assumed, but all you have are assumptions.

Basically, Toriyama reviews Toyotaro's Storyboards, and he needs to approve them for Toyotaro to start drawing.
Toriyama supervises, gives suggestions and corrects Toyotaro's work.
Toriyama creates the main scenes and Toyotaro puts his originality into other things like choreographies of fights and jokes.

Q: What is the relationship between you and master Toriyama? What advice does he give you?
T: Toriyama first writes the scenario and the text, then I create the storyboard, I present it to Toriyama and Shueisha and after their approval I start to draw.

Q: Do you think you have given continuity to what Toriyama did?
T: Yes, this is a series created by Toriyama, so it has to follow its style, but I want to put some of my originality and freshness.

Q: What are these elements of originality?
T: Regarding the story, I keep the narrative arch but I put my own jokes. So Toriyama creates the main things but then I put my own, for example in the choreographies of the fights.

Toriyama is with the animation team? Giving ideas? That was never talked about.
He even publicly complained about the DBS animation, which would not happen if he was involved with the anime, since he would talk to the producers themselves.

Toei takes the script from Toriyama and adapts it to the anime, does not write anything. And if she adapts and changes so many things, then that does not mean anything in the real vision of Toriyama.

Black is the strongest in the opinion of only one of the producers, and his justification was not even his abilities. To take this as absolute truth is to be convenient (including, in the manga where Toriyama has more involvement, vegeta ends stronger).

As I said, however, now they are naturally stronger than Black, both for the passage of time and for the training they will do before starting the tournament (Vegeta, as said he will train in RoSaT according to the synopses)

[HeroR]

Basically, Toriyama reviews Toyotaro's Storyboards, and he needs to approve them for Toyotaro to start drawing.
Toriyama supervises, gives suggestions and corrects Toyotaro's work.
Toriyama creates the main scenes and Toyotaro puts his originality into other things like choreographies of fights and jokes.

Q: What is the relationship between you and master Toriyama? What advice does he give you?
T: Toriyama first writes the scenario and the text, then I create the storyboard, I present it to Toriyama and Shueisha and after their approval I start to draw.

Q: Do you think you have given continuity to what Toriyama did?
T: Yes, this is a series created by Toriyama, so it has to follow its style, but I want to put some of my originality and freshness.

Q: What are these elements of originality?
T: Regarding the story, I keep the narrative arch but I put my own jokes. So Toriyama creates the main things but then I put my own, for example in the choreographies of the fights.

Toriyama is with the animation team? Giving ideas? That was never talked about.
He even publicly complained about the DBS animation, which would not happen if he was involved with the anime, since he would talk to the producers themselves.

Toei takes the script from Toriyama and adapts it to the anime, does not write anything. And if she adapts and changes so many things, then that does not mean anything in the real vision of Toriyama.

Black is the strongest in the opinion of only one of the producers, and his justification was not even his abilities. To take this as absolute truth is to be convenient (including, in the manga where Toriyama has more involvement, vegeta ends stronger).

As I said, however, now they are naturally stronger than Black, both for the passage of time and for the training they will do before starting the tournament (Vegeta, as said he will train in RoSaT according to the synopses)

Toriyama looks over everything for Dragon Ball. Not just the Super manga. That was confirmed in an interview that Toriyama looks at the storyboards for the anime. And him complaining was over a year ago.

He's the strongest in the anime, period. And again, Toriyama looks at the anime storyboards.

Your assumption. You have no proof.

[TAF108]

Really? From LampLanguage, a poster on Reddit:

SSB ramps overall power level which in DBZ decides your speed, defence, and power. it's not like SSBeefcake mode that only ramps up power at the cost of speed. SSG Vegeta wouldn't be able to even get close to SSR black, the only explanation is that Vegeta trained so hard that both his SSG and SSB form surpassed black. Thus it's still just about being stronger and the new tech Vegeta developed just helps him stomp with less stamina drain when he's already stomping.

It also makes less sense in the manga Canon, because in the manga the majority of SSB's stamina drain is transforming into it, not maintenance. In the tournament arc Vegeta went SSB for a second and flicked cabbage, and the drain was so bad his SSB power was cut in half next time he transformed against hit.

And my take, how the heck can anyone claim the manga is 'more consistent' when it had Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta beat up Super Saiyan 1/2 Black when we saw Super Saiyan 2 Trunks get stomped by base form Black, and Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is evenly matched with Super Saiyan 3 Goku?

Well, I think it just kind of depends on how you look at it. I've always explained Vegeta's superiority over Black (and by extension, Trunks) to be due to him retaining his "Mutated" SSJ2 form. Or his "Quake of Fury" SSJ2 form. Keeping in mind that Vegeta using this form is the only one able to get effort out of Beerus before SSJG Goku arrives, it could perfectly explain how Vegeta can be "ahead" of Goku & Trunks, yet still be in the same realm as them, in the same form.

So I'd have a chain like this. SSJB Vegeta (And Goku) > SSJ2 Vegeta (Quake of Fury) > SSJ Black (Pre Zenkai) > Base Black >= SSJ3 Goku >= SSJ2 Trunks (Powered up/Ascended/Whatever you want to call it.) > SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks (Assuming Vegeta can still use his "normal" SSJ2 form)

So there's actually quite a bit of wiggle room. As SSJ2 Trunks in his powered-up state isn't equal to Goku, he's nearly a match for him. Emphasis on the word nearly, so he wasn't quite as strong as Goku. Just so strong that Goku wouldn't be able to defeat him easily. And as far as SSJ2 Vegeta being able to pound on Black, Vegeta's never shown to be knocked out of his SSJ2 form. He is just flying their when Goku arrives. Considering Goku managed to keep SSJG as a form, it could be possible that Vegeta was able to keep his mutation. The whole scaling with Trunks & Goku was just a chapter or two before, I doubt Toyo forgot. I will admit this is shoddy because it's not explicitly stated anywhere, but that's the implication I've got.

That said, I'd say the manga is more consistent simply due to the fact that there's less "filler". And by that, I mean fights that don't really relate to the main arc, but end up impacting or contradicting the series as a whole. (Goku fights so and so in a certain form, etc.)

I'd even say the manga Trunks' arc is more consistent. Mirai Zamasu & Mirai Trunks are randomly shown to be stronger than they should be in the anime. Trunks' is able to have an even fight with Zamasu, and gain the upper hand. The latter only doing well due to his immortality. However in the next scenes, he's able to trade blows with Goku. Just as Trunks' is able to do with Black. I think we can call PIS on Trunks (as he's at best, comparable to Goku & Vegeta while they're in equal forms. And during the second trip to the future, Trunks' is clearly the most injured by Zamasu's and Black's combined attack, and Vegeta worries about how he took it. As he should), but Zamasu is shown up until he fuses with Black to be able to fight & react to Goku & Vegeta. If he were truly weaker than them in the anime, he should be to slow to react & just get stomped. I think it works if you just consider Trunks' feats during the first fight as PIS, but that was the same fight that established Zamasu's strength, hence my issues with it.

As far as scaling in the manga goes, for the Black Arc, I have this. SSJB Vegetto (Full Power) > Beerus > Gattai Zamasu > SSJB Vegeta (Post RoSaT) >= SSJR Black (Post Zenkai) > SSJG Vegeta (Post RoSaT) >>> SSJ Black (Post Zenkai) >= SSJB Vegeta/Goku > SSJG Vegeta/Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta (Quake of Fury) > SSJ Black > Base Black >= SSJ3 Goku >= SSJ2 Trunks (Powered-up) > SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta/Trunks > SSJ Goku/Vegeta/Trunks > Mirai Zamasu.

You could also throw Base Vegetto in there. Or disregard the idea that Vegeta kept his BoG power-up, then I'd say that Toyo did indeed have a short coming here.

As far as Vegeta's use of SSJB, I'm pretty sure Goku stated that Vegeta trained so hard that he was able to overcome the flaw of losing power upon transformation.



So it's possible there's drain in both stamina, and maintenance, and so Vegeta was able to overcome one but not the other. It could also be that he trolling Black throughout their fight, and could maintain SSJB pretty well, simply choosing to use SSJG as his "front" in order to troll Black. But rereading the manga, I'd bet on the latter.

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapters ... 589?read=1

[TheSaiyanGod]

Basically, Toriyama reviews Toyotaro's Storyboards, and he needs to approve them for Toyotaro to start drawing.
Toriyama supervises, gives suggestions and corrects Toyotaro's work.
Toriyama creates the main scenes and Toyotaro puts his originality into other things like choreographies of fights and jokes.

Q: What is the relationship between you and master Toriyama? What advice does he give you?
T: Toriyama first writes the scenario and the text, then I create the storyboard, I present it to Toriyama and Shueisha and after their approval I start to draw.

Q: Do you think you have given continuity to what Toriyama did?
T: Yes, this is a series created by Toriyama, so it has to follow its style, but I want to put some of my originality and freshness.

Q: What are these elements of originality?
T: Regarding the story, I keep the narrative arch but I put my own jokes. So Toriyama creates the main things but then I put my own, for example in the choreographies of the fights.

Toriyama is with the animation team? Giving ideas? That was never talked about.
He even publicly complained about the DBS animation, which would not happen if he was involved with the anime, since he would talk to the producers themselves.

Toei takes the script from Toriyama and adapts it to the anime, does not write anything. And if she adapts and changes so many things, then that does not mean anything in the real vision of Toriyama.

Black is the strongest in the opinion of only one of the producers, and his justification was not even his abilities. To take this as absolute truth is to be convenient (including, in the manga where Toriyama has more involvement, vegeta ends stronger).

As I said, however, now they are naturally stronger than Black, both for the passage of time and for the training they will do before starting the tournament (Vegeta, as said he will train in RoSaT according to the synopses)

Toriyama looks over everything for Dragon Ball. Not just the Super manga. That was confirmed in an interview that Toriyama looks at the storyboards for the anime. And him complaining was over a year ago.

He's the strongest in the anime, period. And again, Toriyama looks at the anime storyboards.

Your assumption. You have no proof.

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

He is not with the production, he does not animate the Anime, he.He designs manga.You want to use an interview that was made 1 year ago in a previous Saga, with the opinion of only one of the producers of the anime as an argument? Soon the anime that has so many changes in the script? The producer himself explained why he thinks Black is the strongest. It's been about a year since the end of the Black Saga in the anime (due to Bulma's pregnancy), and according to the synopses, Vegeta will train again in RoSaT. You just do not want to Accept this, using arguments from a Saga that ended 1 year ago

[TheMikado]

^ Toyotaro says Toriyama reviews all Dragonball franchise content. This is probably true and always has been. Whether that just means he's looking for something really awful he doesn't approve of or actually provides feedback we don't know. We know he does at least give feed back for the manga.

However judging from everything from GT, Heroes, DB online, and Xeno I would bet he just glances over everything with his name on it and approves a good portion of what comes across his desk.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

He is not with the production, he does not animate the Anime, he.He designs manga.You want to use an interview that was made 1 year ago in a previous Saga, with the opinion of only one of the producers of the anime as an argument? Soon the anime that has so many changes in the script? The producer himself explained why he thinks Black is the strongest. It's been about a year since the end of the Black Saga in the anime (due to Bulma's pregnancy), and according to the synopses, Vegeta will train again in RoSaT. You just do not want to Accept this, using arguments from a Saga that ended 1 year ago

Since this is how this conundrum is being addressed for you and people who agree with you, shouldn't we apply the same to the "evidence" that was dredged up recently, that pamphlet for the RoF movie?

As in, not apply it to the anime in any fashion?

[Bullza]

It wasn't just his opinion since he works on the show. He approves the story and tells the writers what to writes. He isn't some fan giving his opinion.

It's just what he said he thought, it wasn't some official fact of the show.

And you have proof of that? Especially since Merged Zamasu was suppressed and Goku broke his arms.

Of course there's proof. Suppressed or not, Gowasu said that Merged Zamasu's power wasn't just just Black's plus Zamasu's, it was that and then it was further expanded upon. Vegeta said he'd never felt such a powerful Ki or some such.

He was rather obviously more powerful, considerably so, compared to just Black on his own. Goku overpowered him, broken arms or not. Vegeta and Trunks together overpowered him.

Black isn't going to overpower a much stronger version of himself, that wouldn't make any sense.

Future Zamasu in the anime managed to push Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

No he didn't. He hit Goku a grand total of once during the entire saga. You can actually count the amount of times he actually hits anyone on one hand. Goku beat him with ridiculous ease the other two times they fought.

SSJ2 Trunks overpowered him and then later in the saga when drained after fighting Black he fought on par with Zamasu. He was shown to be nowhere near that level in the manga either because Goku dropped out of Blue form after testing him out.

And Goku beat up Present Zamasu as a Super Saiyan 2, not Future Zamasu.

The only stated difference is that one has immortality and the other doesn't. There's no significant power difference at all, neither in the anime or manga. SSJ2 Goku is superior to Present Zamasu and SSJ2 Trunks is superior to Future Zamasu.

The latter was also said in the manga.

And it was stated several times in the anime Future Zamasu drops his guard because of his immortality.

Yeah which would be like the scene when he was fighting Goku and then mid fight he looked away and started commenting on the rift Black opened up and so he got punched in the face for not paying attention.

Nothing to go against what I've said though.

[Simere]

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?
Toyotaro: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

I see you posting right there, surely you saw this.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

He is not with the production, he does not animate the Anime, he.He designs manga.You want to use an interview that was made 1 year ago in a previous Saga, with the opinion of only one of the producers of the anime as an argument? Soon the anime that has so many changes in the script? The producer himself explained why he thinks Black is the strongest. It's been about a year since the end of the Black Saga in the anime (due to Bulma's pregnancy), and according to the synopses, Vegeta will train again in RoSaT. You just do not want to Accept this, using arguments from a Saga that ended 1 year ago

Since this is how this conundrum is being addressed for you and people who agree with you, shouldn't we apply the same to the "evidence" that was dredged up recently, that pamphlet for the RoF movie?

As in, not apply it to the anime in any fashion?

Are you talking about Toriyama's speech in '' Volume F '', which caused a discussion about the '' two bases '' of Goku?

I have already proven that Toriyama has involvement with the DBS manga and that everything that Toyotaro does, goes through the creator. Where does he specifically say that he revises the Storyboards of the anime?

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?
Toyotaro: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

I see you posting right there, surely you saw this.

This speech from Toyotaro was quite subjective.
I mean, how much he oversees other Storyboards related to DB?

We have games, we have Spin Off, DBH manga, and several other things.

In the manga of DBS, we have already seen Toyotaro affirming in several interviews how much Toriyama is involved with the manga. Not only reviewing the Storyboards, but approving, making corrections and giving suggestions to Toyotaro