"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

While I don't think her personality would, or should, be identical to her sixteen-year-old Boo-arc self, which I acknowledged in an earlier post by pointing out this is not a binary proposition, I can't fully support the shift from the Toriyama female character of the original run to the Kishimoto female character offered under present-day Toei.

She's a minor character, of course, but Super handles her so poorly she stands out.

I don't see how Super handles her poorly since she's barely on scene.

I don't think it's impossible to make her interesting again; Videl showed quick flashes of character during that two-episode Gohan mini-arc a while back.
Additional example: Vegeta was, for the past 3 months, falling into that same blandness hole that Videl's currently in, but he clawed his way out of there in the past two weeks.

Vegeta hasn't done anything besides blow up the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, preventing anyone but him from using it. Selfish prick.

[TheMikado]

I both hate and dislike shallow characters who can't be defined outside the context of their relationships.

This, I loved Videl as she was. Chichi didn't stop being Chichi, and Bulma didn't stop being Bulma. I don't know what the heck happened to Videl.
One thing I will say is that I love how GT Pan basically has the same personality of her mother Videl. I hated them for years and years because I hated the personality of Videl and Pan acting like Videl, but seeing her stripped of all personality now made me appreciate their brash and generally annoying and intense personalities. At least they had some type of fire in them, annoying though they may be. I still don't like it very much, but I now see there is actually a personality type worse than that. None.

[HeroR]

I personally never had a problem with Videl's character, but I understand where people are coming from. Just look at Bulma, (Videl's complete polar opposite in-terms of character progression) she has matured, but she still has shreds of her personality from when she was a teenager.

Bulma is also one of the original main characters who have a role that is unique to her that nobody can fill. Videl even at her best never had that.

I both hate and dislike shallow characters who can't be defined outside the context of their relationships.

The only episodes to remind us she has a pulse in the better part of two years culminate in the revelation that ... drumroll please ... she trusts her husband. Which is sweet, but would be a lot sweeter without the backdrop of complete, borderline uncomfortable housewifery.

If she isn't going to play an active role, that's fine; she doesn't need to show up. (Nor do characters like Gohan when they aren't playing active roles.) But if screentime is going to be thrown a character's way, they shouldn't be this dull when they had personality prior. I have no excuses to offer Toei on this.

I mean no offense to you, but this reads like a personal problem of yours and not so much the writing of Videl. I also don't think a character should be thrown off-scene completely just because you personally don't like their current role. Also, Videl's personality prior was the standards "hardass woman, with a soft center", which is almost every female character related to the main cast.

I also disagree that her crowning moment was trusting her husband. Her crowning moment was basically kicking Barry in the balls repeatedly without ever physically touching him and slamming him with a well deserved "reason you suck speech". To me, this shows that Videl can and will call shit out, but she's far more mature about it. Something I always had a problem with Videl in the Buu Saga since she came off as so ignorant and arrogant that I was actually happy when she got brought down to Earth and humbled. I personally prefer her character after Spopovich beat her ass.

[Totamo]

The 2008 special was the last time Videl had her old personality. And Trunks and Goten were actually important. And Yamcha wasn't treated badly.

Goddamn, that 2008 special felt far more like DBZ than all of Super does in terms of the characters. Even Goku was still in his laid-back Buu saga "mentor" mode than his battle hungry Super personality.

Goku and Vegeta were rivaling each other throughout that entire special and Gohan was the only one mentoring.

Also someone tell me: Why do people care about Videl? She didn't do anything relevant in the buu saga. Hell, super used her more.Now that I think about what did Goten and Trunks even do? They just made things worse.

I don't think a lot of people here get dragon ball's character usage, THEY BARELY USE THEM.

It's like with Lunch or Chiaozu, THEY DON'T MATTER.

The point is that everyone was in character there. In Super they aren't.

The point is: you guys have a selective memory and I also think it's pretty dumb to compare a 30 minute special to a 93 episode series.

Seriously, come on

[SaiyanGod117]

I personally never had a problem with Videl's character, but I understand where people are coming from. Just look at Bulma, (Videl's complete polar opposite in-terms of character progression) she has matured, but she still has shreds of her personality from when she was a teenager.

Bulma is also one of the original main characters who have a role that is unique to her that nobody can fill. Videl even at her best never had that.

Does it really matter if she's one of the main characters? She still retains her personality, she does what does, like building stuff and tinkering with technology, because that's apart of who she is. I'm not saying Videl should be like her old teenager self, but when you look at it her character progession it's pretty unrealistic. She's completely different in every way possible, and nothing more than a few years has past since the Buu Arc. I don't know what made her so mature, she has no job, even before pan was born she was acting all mild-mannered and soft spoken.

[Chuquita]

I don't think it's impossible to make her interesting again; Videl showed quick flashes of character during that two-episode Gohan mini-arc a while back.
Additional example: Vegeta was, for the past 3 months, falling into that same blandness hole that Videl's currently in, but he clawed his way out of there in the past two weeks.

Vegeta hasn't done anything besides blow up the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, preventing anyone but him from using it. Selfish prick.

I agree. That was an incredibly selfish, stupid move Vegeta made, but it wasn't boring; at least not to me.

Boring, responsible, safe characters are great in real life, but not so much in fiction. They don't move the plot along, raise tension, or create excitement in fictional works. They work well as side characters or mentors, but as main characters they're dull. Example: Cabba's a nice, vanilla guy, but he pales in comparison to gang leader Caulifla when it comes to personality, imo.

[perucho1990]

This, I loved Videl as she was. Chichi didn't stop being Chichi, and Bulma didn't stop being Bulma. I don't know what the heck happened to Videl.
One thing I will say is that I love how GT Pan basically has the same personality of her mother Videl. I hated them for years and years because I hated the personality of Videl and Pan acting like Videl, but seeing her stripped of all personality now made me appreciate their brash and generally annoying and intense personalities. At least they had some type of fire in them, annoying though they may be. I still don't like it very much, but I now see there is actually a personality type worse than that. None.

Too bad Toei screwed it up badly, Pan shouldve like how Caulifla is(a tomboy but without the annoying attitude). Caulifla is very smug though(when she turned SSJ and bragging about her SSJ power).

I'm interesting how Toei will handle Kale, either they go with the Bruce Banner thing or they could write her similar to Escanor from Nanatsu no Taizai.(Wimpy base mode and very OP mode while acting all smug and almighty):

[Cipher]

I mean no offense to you, but this reads like a personal problem of yours and not so much the writing of Videl.

Maybe so. But I can't say I know anyone whose universe revolves around plucking up their husband to the extent Videl's seems to around Gohan (which was, unfortunately, also the undercurrent to her telling off Barry), and I'd be concerned if I did. That's textbook "male failing to write female characters" stuff that Toriyama more or less always managed to avoid.

To me, this shows that Videl can and will call shit out, but she's far more mature about it. Something I always had a problem with Videl in the Buu Saga since she came off as so ignorant and arrogant that I was actually happy when she got brought down to Earth and humbled. I personally prefer her character after Spopovich beat her ass.

People keep bringing this up as the moment of change, but I feel like that's ignoring that her action immediately afterward is to fly off to go fight a supervillain (which she only drops out of after realizing how far in over her head she is). No one ever had a problem with Toei of yore showing her continued superheroic adventures either.

[fexus]

I personally never had a problem with Videl's character, but I understand where people are coming from. Just look at Bulma, (Videl's complete polar opposite in-terms of character progression) she has matured, but she still has shreds of her personality from when she was a teenager.

Bulma is also one of the original main characters who have a role that is unique to her that nobody can fill. Videl even at her best never had that.

Does it really matter if she's one of the main characters? She still retains her personality, she does what does, like building stuff and tinkering with technology, because that's apart of who she is. I'm not Videl should be like her old teenager, but when you look at it her character progession is pretty unrealistic. She's completely different in every way possible, and nothing more than a few years has past since the Buu Arc. I don't know what made her so mature, she has no job, even before pan was born she acting all mild-mannered and soft spoken.

That's easily explained. Bulma not only was part of the main cast but her character traits aren't being tied down to anything. Videl on the other hand got herself beat up half to death, find out her father is a lie and know that she is overshadowed in power by almost everyone of the Z fighters. But still she's not all that different actually. I can see her acting like she is in Super. She doesn't do anything that would be considered out of character. Actually what would you add to her character right now that would not conflict with anything that was already presented while maintaining her role as a supporting wife and a lovable mother?

[HeroR]

Does it really matter if she's one of the main characters? She still retains her personality, she does what does, like building stuff and tinkering with technology, because that's apart of who she is. I'm not saying Videl should be like her old teenager self, but when you look at it her character progession it's pretty unrealistic. She's completely different in every way possible, and nothing more than a few years has past since the Buu Arc. I don't know what made her so mature, she has no job, even before pan was born she was acting all mild-mannered and soft spoken.

Yes it does. She was the original main character along with Goku and she fills a roll that no one in the cast in capture outside of Dr. Briefs.

How is it unrealistic for a person to settle down after having a kid. I personally know people who have done so. And calling her "different in every way possible" is hyperbolical nonsense. She is still clearly the same person who is far wiser and smarter than her bratty teen years. Also, "she has no job" based on what? Do you know what she did before marriage? And she became wiser after she saw where she stacked in the world.

Maybe so. But I can't say I know anyone whose universe revolves around plucking up their husband to the extent Videl's seems to around Gohan (which was, unfortunately, also the undercurrent to her telling off Barry), and I'd be concerned if I did. That's textbook "male failing to write female characters" stuff that Toriyama more or less always managed to avoid.

People keep bringing this up as the moment of change, but I feel like that's ignoring that her action immediately afterward is to fly off to go fight a supervillain (which she only drops out of after realizing how far in over her head she is). No one ever had a problem with Toei of yore showing her continued superheroic adventures either.

Happens the time in real life. It's really culture that says that a woman isn't bound to their family and husband. Her beat down of Barry also didn't really center around Gohan. Gohan was the caused, but most of her problems with Barry was related to him being a self-absorbed bastard.

She flew off and then dropped off after she realized that she was over her head. She finally understand her place. If she didn't, she would have followed Gohan al the way to Babidi and be a load. And why would she "continued superheroic adventures"? Not even Gohan continued his "continued superheroic adventures" and he's far less likely to get killed by some punk with a gun.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Bulma is actually a perfect example.

Initially as a teen around the same age as Videl she had a massive obsession with getting the perfect boyfriend. As time went on and through experience that desire went away.

Videl as a teen wanted to fight crime and honor her name. Through experience she learned not only is she not strong but she also realized a family was more important.

Also as I said shes simply not an important character and there is no reason to show her doing anything else. Not every character in a series gets development or stays the same.

[Cipher]

So Bulma's journey was a progression toward independence while Videl's was a progression toward total dependence?

Awesome.

Also as I said shes simply not an important character and there is no reason to show her doing anything else. Not every character in a series gets development or stays the same.

Then just don't show her. No one's forcing Toei to spotlight her in a number of episodes without writing anything fun or characterizing into her appearances.

What are current Videl's likes and dislikes, besides Gohan?

[SaiyanGod117]

That's easily explained. Bulma not only was part of the main cast but her character traits aren't being tied down to anything. Videl on the other hand got herself beat up half to death, find out her father is a lie and know that she is overshadowed in power by almost everyone of the Z fighters. But still she's not all that different actually. I can see her acting like she is in Super. She doesn't do anything that would be considered out of character. Actually what would you add to her character right now that would not conflict with anything that was already presented while maintaining her role as a supporting wife and a lovable mother?

The Z-fighters had worse happen to them, but it still didn't change or deter them. Look at Yamacha and Tien, they adamantly admit of how inferior and powerless they are to the new threats that come to Earth time and time again. In spite of that, they all don't all the sudden become some soft-spoken, gentle, timid, run-of-the-mill character. It's cool to have a level head, because that comes with maturity and experience, but to completely reform yourself with nothing indicating beforehand seems artificial. I don't know how much time has past since the Buu Saga. Super has been pretty ambiguous about their timeskips and what not, but Videl is still essentially a teen depending on the arc. Yet she acts like she's middle-age and been married for 10 years, I would add just a little personality to her like show her doing a little hobbies or something, not be so dull.

Yes it does. She was the original main character along with Goku and she fills a roll that no one in the cast in capture outside of Dr. Briefs.

So you have to be a main character if you want accurate character progression? Seems contrived.

How is it unrealistic for a person to settle down after having a kid. I personally know people who have done so. And calling her "different in every way possible" is hyperbolical nonsense. She is still clearly the same person who is far wiser and smarter than her bratty teen years. Also, "she has no job" based on what? Do you know what she did before marriage? And she became wiser after she saw where she stacked in the world.

First and foremost depending on the arc she would still be relatively a teenager and even before Pan was born, she was acting the exact same way. Secondly, she resembles nothing of her former self, the only thing the same about her are her face and hair color. I don't know what Videl you've been watching, but it definitely isn't the Videl from Super. And I know she has no job, because everytime we see her, she either doing the dishes or with pan or playing housewife. Basically what some of you are saying is, Videl is shaped by circumstances and possesses no capacity to be her self.

[Nero<>Akira]

That's easily explained. Bulma not only was part of the main cast but her character traits aren't being tied down to anything. Videl on the other hand got herself beat up half to death, find out her father is a lie and know that she is overshadowed in power by almost everyone of the Z fighters. But still she's not all that different actually. I can see her acting like she is in Super. She doesn't do anything that would be considered out of character. Actually what would you add to her character right now that would not conflict with anything that was already presented while maintaining her role as a supporting wife and a lovable mother?

The Z-fighters had worse happen to them, but it still didn't change or deter them. Look at Yamacha and Tien, they adamantly admit of how inferior and powerless they are to the new threats that come to Earth time and time again. In spite of that, they all don't all the sudden become some soft-spoken, gentle, timid, run-of-the-mill character. It's cool to have a level head, because that comes with maturity and experience, but to completely reform yourself with nothing indicating beforehand seems artificial. I don't know how much time has past since the Buu Saga. Super has been pretty ambiguous about their timeskips and what not, but Videl is still essentially a teen depending on the arc. Yet she acts like she's middle-age and been married for 10 years, I would add just a little personality to her like show her doing a little hobbies or something, not be so dull.

Yes it does. She was the original main character along with Goku and she fills a roll that no one in the cast in capture outside of Dr. Briefs.

So you have to be a main character if you want accurate character progression? Seems contrived.

How is it unrealistic for a person to settle down after having a kid. I personally know people who have done so. And calling her "different in every way possible" is hyperbolical nonsense. She is still clearly the same person who is far wiser and smarter than her bratty teen years. Also, "she has no job" based on what? Do you know what she did before marriage? And she became wiser after she saw where she stacked in the world.

First and foremost depending on the arc she would still be relatively a teenager and even before Pan was born, she was acting the exact same way. Secondly, she resembles nothing of her former self, the only thing the same about her are her face and hair color. I don't know what Videl you've been watching, but it definitely isn't the Videl from Super. And I know she has no job, because everytime we see her, she either doing the dishes or with pan or playing housewife. Basically what some of you are saying is, Videl is shaped by circumstances and possesses no capacity to be her self.

Videl isn't Tien and Yamcha. Sorry. Not everyone is going to have the same or a similar journey. and considering Bra was born, we are at the least 5-5.5 years since the end of the Boo arc. Videl is an adult. She isn't a teenager.

[Kunzait_83]

This whole Videl discussion is depressing in the extreme. Not merely for the turn her character's taken in Super, but even more so for the number of people willing to defend it and the lengths they'll go.

I'll keep this as simple as humanly possible, because frankly this is a staggeringly simple issue.

What we have here is a character who in her original appearances in the original Z run, was overwhelmingly defined as being:

- Tough as nails
- Having a strong sense of morality and duty to law enforcement
- Being greatly invested in martial arts training and following in the footsteps of first her father, and then her newfound friends

Along the way she becomes attracted to and develops a romance with Gohan, but this never at any point overwhelms or drowns out the above attributes. She is a well defined individual with her own goals and interests and agency that are completely and wholly separate and apart from her relationship with Gohan (even her dedication to martial arts predates her meeting him and Gohan's influence merely changes the trajectory of her training).

Post-Z, whether it be in GT or Super, we have a character who is defined as being:

- A devoted housewife and mother

Aaaaaand... that's it.

It should NOT have to take an in-depth explanation to properly illustrate why the optics of these changes and shifts in the direction of this character are HUGELY, thuddingly regressive and reductive: not even just in the obvious gender-political terms, but even just in pure basic writing terms. This character shift 1000% indefensible on ANY level (be it pure writing or gender dynamics), and I'm at a complete and total loss for what could possibly, conceivably motivate an average audience in 2017 to want to stand up for this. I can make some guesses at why, but that's all they'd be at this point: guesses (albeit educated ones from my time and experience around this particular fanbase). And this isn't the thread for that anyway.

You could make the argument that there just isn't a place for Videl's character in these stories, and I have no problems whatsoever with that notion. So my counter to that is "Then just don't use her at all if you've got nothing for her to do." Better no utilization whatsoever than shitty, damaging utilization. And no, before someone goes there, OBVIOUSLY I'm not in any way making some kind of "anti-housewife, anti-mother" statement. That's thoroughly disingenuous, and anyone who throws that around HAS to know on some level deep down that its a full of shit ad hominem non-argument.

Having this character eventually get married and have a kid is a perfectly fine, lovely turn for her to take. Reducing her ENTIRE role in the story and moreover her ENTIRE characterization as a human being down to those lone attributes on the other hand is disgusting and a blatantly obvious, ancient as all hell pitfall in men writing women characters: one that is, yes lets not anyone kid themselves here, STEEPED in sexism, intentional or not. And in fairness, I likely think that in this case it wasn't intentional, but rather just a byproduct of sheer laziness. But that being said, it also says a LOT about an individual male writer's own psychology when their "I'm not actually trying" automatic reflex on a female character is to default to this tired garbage.

[SaiyanGod117]

Videl isn't Tien and Yamcha. Sorry. Not everyone is going to have the same or a similar journey. and considering Bra was born, we are at the least 5-5.5 years since the end of the Boo arc. Videl is an adult. She isn't a teenager.

Well duh. I was using them both as an example all of three of them faced hardships and those two still retained personality and mostly every character in Dragon Ball has, no reason for Videl not to do the same. Furthermore at this point I know she's an adult, but depending on the arc she would be a teenager.

[Cipher]

I'll keep this as simple as humanly possible, because frankly this is a staggeringly simple issue.

What we have here is a character who in her original appearances in the original Z run, was overwhelmingly defined as being:

- Tough as nails
- Having a strong sense of morality and duty to law enforcement
- Being greatly invested in martial arts training and following in the footsteps of first her father, and then her newfound friends

Along the way she becomes attracted to and develops a romance with Gohan, but this never at any point overwhelms or drowns out the above attributes. She is a well defined individual with her own goals and interests and agency that are completely and wholly separate and apart from her relationship with Gohan (even her dedication to martial arts predates her meeting him and Gohan's influence merely changes the trajectory of her training).

Post-Z, whether it be in GT or Super, we have a character who is defined as being:

- A devoted housewife and mother

Aaaaaand... that's it.

Excellently put. That's the entirety of it.

[GodKaio-Ken]

This whole Videl discussion is depressing in the extreme. Not merely for the turn her character's taken in Super, but even more so for the number of people willing to defend it and the lengths they'll go.

I'll keep this as simple as humanly possible, because frankly this is a staggeringly simple issue.

What we have here is a character who in her original appearances in the original Z run, was overwhelmingly defined as being:

- Tough as nails
- Having a strong sense of morality and duty to law enforcement
- Being greatly invested in martial arts training and following in the footsteps of first her father, and then her newfound friends

Along the way she becomes attracted to and develops a romance with Gohan, but this never at any point overwhelms or drowns out the above attributes. She is a well defined individual with her own goals and interests and agency that are completely and wholly separate and apart from her relationship with Gohan (even her dedication to martial arts predates her meeting him and Gohan's influence merely changes the trajectory of her training).

Post-Z, whether it be in GT or Super, we have a character who is defined as being:

- A devoted housewife and mother

Aaaaaand... that's it.

It should NOT have to take an in-depth explanation to properly illustrate why the optics of these changes and shifts in the direction of this character are HUGELY, thuddingly regressive and reductive: not even just in the obvious gender-political terms, but even just in pure basic writing terms. This character shift 1000% indefensible on ANY level (be it pure writing or gender dynamics), and I'm at a complete and total loss for what could possibly, conceivably motivate an average audience in 2017 to want to stand up for this. I can make some guesses at why, but that's all they'd be at this point: guesses (albeit educated ones from my time and experience around this particular fanbase). And this isn't the thread for that anyway.

You could make the argument that there just isn't a place for Videl's character in these stories, and I have no problems whatsoever with that notion. So my counter to that is "Then just don't use her at all if you've got nothing for her to do." Better no utilization whatsoever than shitty, damaging utilization. And no, before someone goes there, OBVIOUSLY I'm not in any way making some kind of "anti-housewife, anti-mother" statement. That's thoroughly disingenuous, and anyone who throws that around HAS to know on some level deep down that its a full of shit ad hominem non-argument.

Having this character eventually get married and have a kid is a perfectly fine, lovely turn for her to take. Reducing her ENTIRE role in the story and moreover her ENTIRE characterization as a human being down to those lone attributes on the other hand is disgusting and a blatantly obvious, ancient as all hell pitfall in men writing women characters: one that is, yes lets not anyone kid themselves here, STEEPED in sexism, intentional or not. And in fairness, I likely think that in this case it wasn't intentional, but rather just a byproduct of sheer laziness. But that being said, it also says a LOT about an individual male writer's own psychology when their "I'm not actually trying" automatic reflex on a female character is to default to this tired garbage.

I disagree with this 100%, I find the last part to be revealing to your character and I will leave it at that.

New topic. Does anyone feel the machine universe is essentially cheating.

[emperior]

About Kale: who do you guys think designed her? Was it Toriyama, Toei or Toyotaro?
We know for sure Caulifla comes from Toriyama, though Kale we don't know for sure, even though her SSJ design was first revealed along Ribrianne and Jiren who are very likely from Toriyama himself.
I also noticed her jawline is the same as Caulifla's so, unless whoever designed her tried to stay consistent with Toriyama's new art style, I'm more inclined to believe she has been designed by Toriyama. He probably only designed the characters who have been emphasized recently/in the opening, which are 99% going to be the main players in the tournament.

Quoting myself. Does someone here know/recognize whether Kale's design is from Toriyama, Toei or Toyotaro?

And please, open a thread to discuss Videl's characterization in Super?

[Gog]

I disagree with this 100%, I find the last part to be revealing to your character and I will leave it at that.

New topic. Does anyone feel the machine universe is essentially cheating.

Then come up with a better reply than insulting him. If you disagree with all of it. Put in the effort to actually reply to it all. And what does the last part reveal about his character? He wants good writing with women? Lazy writing sucks?

Nah, I wouldn't say that. They are all technically robots.