Unpopular DB opinions

[LuckyCat]

He's uninteresting in spite of having every opportunity not to be.

I wouldn't go that far. Imperfect Cell at least stands out as the only character to psychologically manipulate the entire cast.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I wouldn't go that far. Imperfect Cell at least stands out as the only character to psychologically manipulate the entire cast.

Imperfect Cell isn't Cell, he's an early piece of characterization that had promise, but ultimately didn't amount to anything.

[Boo Machine]

I wouldn't go that far. Imperfect Cell at least stands out as the only character to psychologically manipulate the entire cast.

I definitely liked Cell a lot better when he was a Skulking monster with a giant straw on his back. Once he reaches his perfect form he is just kind dull. He builds a giant arena and just kind of waits for people to come to him and then threatens to blow up the planet once he has beaten Goku.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Granted Cell is an android so he is limited to how he is programmed...

I wish that were an excuse, but Cell himself seems to suggest that he'd evolved past his original programming after reaching his perfect state. He's uninteresting in spite of having every opportunity not to be.

Even when he reached his perfect state his goal was still the same, to best everyone else in combat and come out on top, and his motivations are, not unlike Vegeta, Piccolo and even Freeza, influenced by Goku and their previous fight(s). As I said its all the standard shonen characteristics repacked in an evil body, that's Cell in a nutshell. He might be interesting to watch fight but not in a narratively compelling way.

[LuckyCat]

He might be interesting to watch fight but not in a narratively compelling way.

It's interesting because a conversation with Cipher reminded me that Cell really represents the consequences of messing with time. With Trunks' help curing Goku and future knowledge, it looked like the heroes would come out on top. Cell throws a monkey wrench in the whole plan. That's why he's narratively compelling to me, at least.

[DBZAOTA482]

Zamasu was unlike any other villain in Dragon Ball. We've never seen a Supreme Kai go down the tragic villain route, it was a welcome addition to the God mythology in Dragon Ball.

Recycling the key traits of all the main characters doesn't make a villain unique, especially when their central purpose is the standard shonen archetype (i.e. striving to become stronger).

I'm not saying Cell was a bad villain because he wasn't, he's just lacking in the motivational factor that I find elevates villains like Freeza, Baby and Zamasu and brings that little bit more depth to why they are the way they are. Granted Cell is an android so he is limited to how he is programmed, but you can also argue that artificial creations are a dime a dozen in not only anime, but also in action and animated shows in general.

Still, Cell has the best design of any Dragon Ball villain.

There's nothing tragic about Zamasu. He's just a pretentious and delusional dickhead plus this villain has been billion times in other shows... and much better I might add.

A villain that's created as to a combination of the world's greatest fighters' DNA is not common at all and the motive of wanting power for power's sake is not archetypal either, especially among villains. All that matters is the execution though.

Zamasu's motives are half-baked. We're never really given a reason why Zamasu views the mortals as not worthy of living. He pretty much decides on a whim that all mortals must die because some are violent even though he's violent himself and instead of taking the best option possible, he for some reason decides it's better to switch bodies with Goku when he can just have all the mortals killed with the Super Dragon Balls. Same thing with Baby, their motives are so ludicrously hypocritical and contradictory that it hurts.

At least Cell's motives were clear and simple. He wanted ultimate power (in part either due to his Saiyan and Freeza DNA or programming logic) then sought out greater purpose once he achieves it.

Yes, and he's done differently in the sense that the series actively mocks his God complex instead of indulging his batshit insane ideology and trying to give it some kind of merit. That makes him unique already.

The only time the series actually mock him is when he started crying... otherwise, they treat him like anything other villain.

Are you saying chimera villains created to be the strongest were never done before?

Also, "among the series", a villain with a God complex was never done in Dragon Ball either.

I dunno what you're talking about. I never was even aware that a "chimera villain built to be the strongest" is an archetype.

A god complex villain may not have been done before by Dragon Ball but it's been done countless times before in other work.

So he has nothing of his own?

Not really. Cell doesn't have the sarcasm that Freeza has with his politeness making it seem more genuine plus he's shown a lot more calm and his brand of sadism is different. Freeza generally physically tortures his enemies while Cell prefers to mentally torture (he announces the Cell Games to the world just to spread terror).

And this is one of the few things that made him genuinely interesting. Too bad the series never bothered to dwell more on his psyche after he achieves his perfect form. Instead, he rages out the moment he starts getting beaten and becomes yet another generic villain with yet another generic mental breakdown.

I don't see how. Cell was still able to maintain his calm demeanor (albeit unhinged) unlike Freeza (etc.) did and played it relatively smart by blowing himself along with everyone else making him the only villain to successfully kill Goku.

[Ki Breaker]

Supernatural beings in Dragonball need to be a regular occurrence..
Dullahan, Ice man, vampire, Lamia etc all could be excellent additions with their respective special quirks

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Cell (Perfect) is not a bland/boring antagonist. The idea that he's genetically made up of the three previous big bads (four, counting Piccolo Jr.) PLUS the series main protagonist was a good one, and was executed very well, imo, with stipulations placed on his evolutions. He hasn't been paraded around by Shueisha/TOEI as much as others (outside video games) for many to care by this point.

I agree with DBZAOTA482's assessment on Cell here. The Artificial Human/Cell arc is my favorite in DB in a narrative, thematic, and presentation sense. The aftermath of that final battle left some marks on the good guys for years following.

Imperfect Cell reminds me of early Namek arc Vegeta in his maneuverings.

It's Gohan's fault that Cell became a full-on bad guy anyway with all that "destroy you with my hidden power" talk. Cell just wanted to enjoy himself and didn't get the accommodations.

RE: Zamasu: I liked Zamasu in Super, but the character kind of didn't go as far as I felt that Toriyama/writing staff were originally going to take him and fizzled out as the arc went on. I would've liked to have seen a Zamasu arc presented under a 90's lens and structure.

[8000 Saiyan]

Although he's not as good as Suzuoki, I actually like Hikaru Midorjkawa's Tenshinhan.

[DragonBallKing]

I wish we got another adventure focused arc after red ribbon.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I wish we got another adventure focused arc after red ribbon.

I'd love if we could get those types of stories every so often, preferably with the supporting cast at this point. Unfortunately, that's just not how the series evolved. What we got was good enough that I can be satisfied with it.

[DragonBallKing]

I wish we got another adventure focused arc after red ribbon.

I'd love if we could get those types of stories every so often, preferably with the supporting cast at this point. Unfortunately, that's just not how the series evolved. What we got was good enough that I can be satisfied with it.

I actually really liked dragon balls filler because It gave a us a few more episodic goku adventures, especially the episodes after the 23rd budokai

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I wish we got another adventure focused arc after red ribbon.

I'd love if we could get those types of stories every so often, preferably with the supporting cast at this point. Unfortunately, that's just not how the series evolved. What we got was good enough that I can be satisfied with it.

I actually really liked dragon balls filler because It gave a us a few more episodic goku adventures, especially the episodes after the 23rd budokai

100% agreed. Though the wedding dress filler isn't my favorite...

...Actually, I guess that only adds up to 50%, but I'll take it!

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I actually enjoy the orange bricks, they were affordable and the widescreen to me gave it a more cinematic feel.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I actually enjoy the orange bricks, they were affordable and the widescreen to me gave it a more cinematic feel.

Widescreen was never the fatal flaw of the Bricks, though. Well, maybe in the sense that all fullscreen releases were discontinued because of them, but in isolation, the cropping wasn't a big deal. The Orange Bricks committed far worse sins, notably the frequent, distracting disappearance of lines, the fairly bad color correction, atrocious contrast, overuse of DVNR... Basically, if you can find a way to make a product terrible, the Bricks did that, but just barely short of the line of unwatchability. If there were a cheap, widescreen release where the picture hadn't been destroyed in some other way, I'd actually be fine with it.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I actually enjoy the orange bricks, they were affordable and the widescreen to me gave it a more cinematic feel.

Widescreen was never the fatal flaw of the Bricks, though. Well, maybe in the sense that all fullscreen releases were discontinued because of them, but in isolation, the cropping wasn't a big deal. The Orange Bricks committed far worse sins, notably the frequent, distracting disappearance of lines, the fairly bad color correction, atrocious contrast, overuse of DVNR... Basically, if you can find a way to make a product terrible, the Bricks did that, but just barely short of the line of unwatchability. If there were a cheap, widescreen release where the picture hadn't been destroyed in some other way, I'd actually be fine with it.

It's funny that people keep on saying that but I did not notice one bit. They looked fine to me. I guess I'm just weird.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's funny that people keep on saying that but I did not notice one bit. They looked fine to me. I guess I'm just weird.

It's 100% fine if you enjoy them, most people don't have a problem with it. Just kinda sucks for those of us who do have higher standards for video quality. Though less so for me, I suppose, since I'm a fan of the manga primarily, and any interest I have in the TV show is tertiary at best.

[dbs fanboy]

Zamasu was unlike any other villain in Dragon Ball. We've never seen a Supreme Kai go down the tragic villain route, it was a welcome addition to the God mythology in Dragon Ball.

Recycling the key traits of all the main characters doesn't make a villain unique, especially when their central purpose is the standard shonen archetype (i.e. striving to become stronger).

I'm not saying Cell was a bad villain because he wasn't, he's just lacking in the motivational factor that I find elevates villains like Freeza, Baby and Zamasu and brings that little bit more depth to why they are the way they are. Granted Cell is an android so he is limited to how he is programmed, but you can also argue that artificial creations are a dime a dozen in not only anime, but also in action and animated shows in general.

Still, Cell has the best design of any Dragon Ball villain.

There's nothing tragic about Zamasu. He's just a pretentious and delusional dickhead plus this villain has been billion times in other shows... and much better I might add.

A villain that's created as to a combination of the world's greatest fighters' DNA is not common at all and the motive of wanting power for power's sake is not archetypal either, especially among villains. All that matters is the execution though.

Zamasu's motives are half-baked. We're never really given a reason why Zamasu views the mortals as not worthy of living. He pretty much decides on a whim that all mortals must die because some are violent even though he's violent himself and instead of taking the best option possible, he for some reason decides it's better to switch bodies with Goku when he can just have all the mortals killed with the Super Dragon Balls. Same thing with Baby, their motives are so ludicrously hypocritical and contradictory that it hurts.

At least Cell's motives were clear and simple. He wanted ultimate power (in part either due to his Saiyan and Freeza DNA or programming logic) then sought out greater purpose once he achieves it.

Yes, and he's done differently in the sense that the series actively mocks his God complex instead of indulging his batshit insane ideology and trying to give it some kind of merit. That makes him unique already.

The only time the series actually mock him is when he started crying... otherwise, they treat him like anything other villain.

Are you saying chimera villains created to be the strongest were never done before?

Also, "among the series", a villain with a God complex was never done in Dragon Ball either.

I dunno what you're talking about. I never was even aware that a "chimera villain built to be the strongest" is an archetype.

A god complex villain may not have been done before by Dragon Ball but it's been done countless times before in other work.

So he has nothing of his own?

Not really. Cell doesn't have the sarcasm that Freeza has with his politeness making it seem more genuine plus he's shown a lot more calm and his brand of sadism is different. Freeza generally physically tortures his enemies while Cell prefers to mentally torture (he announces the Cell Games to the world just to spread terror).

And this is one of the few things that made him genuinely interesting. Too bad the series never bothered to dwell more on his psyche after he achieves his perfect form. Instead, he rages out the moment he starts getting beaten and becomes yet another generic villain with yet another generic mental breakdown.

I don't see how. Cell was still able to maintain his calm demeanor (albeit unhinged) unlike Freeza (etc.) did and played it relatively smart by blowing himself along with everyone else making him the only villain to successfully kill Goku.

Zamasu didn't want to kill the mortals from the beginning, he was just confused, unsure, he was in doubt because he didn't know wheter The mortals were really worth protecting. He didn't based this on the fact that he thought that they were too violent but in the fact that they do not learn. As a Kaio he has already observed them from thousands of years so obviously he has seen peace between the mortals, but none of that matters to him because after some time with peace, war quickly takes over and destroys everything. Then he met son Goku and realized that mortal could be a serious threat for deities which only did everything worse. His turning point was his conversación with Gowasu in ep 55. He was upset because Mortals didn't use the intelligence they were given as they still commit the same mistakes over and over again; he was upset because he wanted to take action but was told that he couldn't for being a Kaio which made him feel that they are there only to watch and nothing more.He thought that evil had to be destroyed but then Gowasu told him that evil was necessary; and then he went full villain mode.
He wanted to kill the mortals by himself because he wanted to DO SOMETHING and because he thought that they deserved that punishment, because they are evil and death is a bless for them anyway.

Zamasu is a tragic character in the sense that he was really misguided and could have been changed if he had a better master. He was hypocrital, but isn't this the point of his character?

Only Future Zamasu was kinda dull, but because he kinda just followed Black on his quest like a dog, he's not really that active. He was still in doubt but then Black appeared, asked for help and then he kinda changed because.........

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Zamasu is a tragic character in the sense that he was really misguided and could have been changed if he had a better master.

It took him all of 5 minutes with Goku to decide he wanted to kill humans. The rest of his development was nothing more than fleshing out and confirming his reasons. Not exactly a tragic character, though I think it would've been interesting if that route had been taken instead.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

Speaking of Zamasu, I remember upon his introduction in Super (anime) that he gave me some vibes of a certain character from this video game/manga:

Utsurowazaru Mono: Breath Of Fire IV (うつろわざるもの―ブレス オブ ファイアⅣ)

I would recommend that if someone is into DB, Zamasu, or a tragic character, to give this a read. The video game was released at the end of 2000 in NA (censored), and a manga adaptation was released in Japan and completed in 2009 (I think). The downside is that there is no official English translation for purchase, but fan translations exist online (digital only). Some story/padding content that was in the game was cut from the manga, while the manga did a better job at fleshing out characters, particularly the main protagonist. Also, the manga redid the original game ending -- which, from what I understand -- was rushed/incomplete in order to meet deadlines so that the game could be shipped out and localized.

Yep, this is the only manga that I've read from beginning to end, and it's got 27 chapters.

Anyway, while there are differences between the two characters, there are also some parallels. Similar philosophies, use of Ki blades, ideations of immortality/divinity, and even going with a traditional/ancient/godly look and mannerisms. However, Breath of Fire IV executed it much better, imo.

FYI, you don't need to know anything about Breath of Fire I-III (which did not receive the manga treatment) to enjoy this. Each installment of the Breath of Fire series is its own self-contained story (though fans still try to tie them together).

Edit: [spoiler]Some nice fanart of the Dragon God Emperor Fou Lu from Breath of Fire IV



[/spoiler]