Do you consider the Boo arc better than Super?

[ABED]

Exactly, The Ki isn't even Goku's, it's formed from other people then Goku launches it at the opponent. The Genkidama is an attack, not a fighting technique, probably the only attack in the entire series where it's not the users own ki.

If this was a kamehameha struggle like Gohan against Cell I might of agreed with you, but Goku didn't beat Buu physically or with his own ki. He simply got the win since he launched the attack, he also needed outside help of the Dragon Balls to give him the strength to even succeed. Anything but a good fight on anyone's own terms.

An attack is a fighting technique and vice versa! You are making an artificial distinction.

I'm sorry to be that guy, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people write "of" instead of the contraction " 've".

[MR.Mark]

You are making an artificial distinction.

And you are using descriptive words oddly

So by your logic Bulma fought Buu because she gave some of her Ki.

[ABED]

You are making an artificial distinction.

And you are using descriptive words oddly

So by your logic Bulma fought Buu because she gave some of her Ki.

Uh, no. That's you creating a strawman. Her giving her energy to Goku is not the same as her throwing a punch. However, Goku throwing the blast is the same as him throwing a punch.

[ShaneisMC]

Hmm...... maybe? It's kinda hard and unfair to compare one arc to what five now? The Boo arc was still done in the original series run while he was still fairly prime time. It was pretty good and fun. Some goofy and occasional poor writing technically but it was still a really fun ride. Super on the other hand, its a mixed bag. I overall enjoy it though definitely. I really enjoy the Battle of Gods arc/movie, then unfortunately I would say that the Resurrection F arc/movie is Toriyama's worst official written storyline. It's still fun to watch at times but overall it really is poor from a story perspective I feel. The Universe 6 arc was for the most part imo really good overall. Not the best arc ever, but overall really enjoyable. Nothing particularly overly questionable that I remember. The Zamasu/Future Trunks arc was really good for the most part. It had a lot of cool ideas and story telling. Downsides, power scaling and whatnot if not already definitely got thrown completely out the window in a lot of areas. The Universe Survival arc has had a shit ton of padding trying to get to the actual tournament. It has taken FOREVER. That being said it's been fairly fun. Again though power scaling...... it has LONG since gotten really...REALLY hard trying to defend or make up some kind of potential excuse as to how something could feasibly be possible, but...... yeaahhhhh it's just out of control at this point. That being said I'm enjoying the tournament so far and am looking forward to watching it unfold. I'd say they both are kinda equalish in that regard then. They both have overall a lot of the same best attributes and some of the worst qualities shared.

[MR.Mark]

And you are using descriptive words oddly

So by your logic Bulma fought Buu because she gave some of her Ki.

Uh, no. That's you creating a strawman.

Disagreed, Goku defeated Buu with an attack with others ki AND the help of magic balls, not in a one on one fight.

In fact, Goku wanted buu reincarnated so he would have a chance to be better prepared to FIGHT him one day, not launch another ki ball at him.

However, Goku throwing the blast is the same as him throwing a punch.

A punch containing none of his own ki, did Sorbet defeat Goku in a fight because he used his own laser ring to bring him down?

[ABED]

Disagreed, Goku defeated Buu with an attack with others ki AND the help of magic balls, not in a one on one fight.

Never said he won in a one on one fight. I said that if Goku and Vegeta were out to save the Earth they wouldn't have fought Buu one on one. Did they fight one on one against Buu? Yes.

In fact, Goku wanted buu reincarnated so he would have a chance to be better prepared to FIGHT him one day, not launch another ki ball at him.

No, he wanted a reincarnation of Buu so he could fight someone as strong as Buu but on his own. He says that explicitly. He says nothing and implies nothing about using or not using ki blasts. This distinction you make is odd.

A punch containing none of his own ki, did Sorbet defeat Goku in a fight because he used his own laser ring to bring him down?

Regardless of whether it contains his own ki, Sorbet didn't defeat Goku. I'm completely confused by this point you are trying to make.

[MR.Mark]

I said that if Goku and Vegeta were out to save the Earth they wouldn't have fought Buu one on one. Did they fight one on one against Buu? Yes.

]No, he wanted a reincarnation of Buu so he could fight someone as strong as Buu but on his own.

Yes, and Kid Buu he couldn't fight on his own, he needed help from everyone. He wanted to get stronger like usual for a rematch one day.

[ABED]

They did fight Buu one on one. Later fat Buu got involved and they used the Genki Dama, but they started off with one on one fights, proving my point that they aren't primarily concerned with saving the universe. This isn't me changing my argument, it looks like I'm correcting you about how you took what I meant by fighting one on one.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Eh I think it mainly comes down to the usual budget and padding, very little of the filler and animation choices in Z was due to an artistic vision.

If that were the case, they wouldn't have needed professional writers or animators, they could've BS'd their way through without doing anything noteworthy. Limitations are not the same thing as a lack of creativity or vision. On the contrary, greatness tends to emerge from heavy limitations.

[MR.Mark]

but they started off with one on one fights, proving my point that they aren't primarily concerned with saving the universe.

Pride or no pride, one on one or no one on one, Vegeta himself acknowledged they were fighting to save the people of earth and the universe, you cannot ignore the evidence.

If that were the case, they wouldn't have needed professional writers or animators, they could've BS'd their way through without doing anything noteworthy.

Hey doing it all yourself worked for Toriyama, and most of his ideas were way better than these so called professionals. Your mileage will vary down to opinion of course.

[MR.Mark]

edit sorry

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Hey doing it all yourself worked for Toriyama, and most of his ideas were way better than these so called professionals. Your mileage will vary down to opinion of course.

Akira Toriyama is a professional. He didn't get to where he is for no reason.

[MR.Mark]

Hey doing it all yourself worked for Toriyama, and most of his ideas were way better than these so called professionals. Your mileage will vary down to opinion of course.

Akira Toriyama is a professional. He didn't get to where he is for no reason.

Well that would explain why I still like Super, at least most of the ideas that seem like his and not Toeis, as most of there contributions take away from his story and Z is a huge offender.

[Lord Beerus]

Wouldn't a more apt comparison with the Majin Boo be with another arc in Super? Either if a comparison has to made, I'd side with the Majin Boo arc all day every day. More consistent art and animation, better character development for the cast, better overall direction, much better soundtrack and the plot is more enjoyable despite the narrative getting very scattered once Kaioshin is introduced and then getting very stretched out with all the plot devices and transformation thrown in. The only thing I would give Super over the Majin Boo arc at this stage is having a much better developed and entertaining villain in Goku Black/Zamasu.

[ABED]

Pride or no pride, one on one or no one on one, Vegeta himself acknowledged they were fighting to save the people of earth and the universe, you cannot ignore the evidence.

I didn't ignore it. I already talked about this. They weren't out primarily to save the universe. I already said they were trying to save it, but it wasn't their goal first and foremost. I in no way said they weren't trying to save it at all.

[MR.Mark]

Pride or no pride, one on one or no one on one, Vegeta himself acknowledged they were fighting to save the people of earth and the universe, you cannot ignore the evidence.

I didn't ignore it. I already talked about this. They weren't out primarily to save the universe. I already said they were trying to save it, but it wasn't their goal first and foremost. I in no way said they weren't trying to save it at all.

Going in circles here, but either way, it's sketchy logic at best to leave Gohan out.

[ABED]

Yes, we are. When you misrepresent what a person writes, it's bound to do that.

[MR.Mark]

Nope, you argue that the decision to leave Gohan out is character driven, I argue that the real decision is plot driven. Nothing more than a flimsy excuse to use the earthlings to help Goku win his battle against Buu.

Why did Goku bother to teach Gotenks and Trunks?

. More consistent art and animation, better character development for the cast, better overall direction.

I can't remember any scene from an animation standpoint in Z flow as smoothly as some of the sequences I've seen in Super. As for character development, the Buu arc was rather Saiyan obsessed, can't really agree with development for the overall cast other than Vegeta. And direction? just no, with all that mind numbing filler I can't agree with that at all. Music is alittle more subjective but I found a lot in the Zamasu arc and the current arc to be pretty great.

[ABED]

Nope, you argue that the decision to leave Gohan out is character driven, I argue that the real decision is plot driven. Nothing more than a flimsy excuse to use the earthlings to help Goku win his battle against Buu.

Why did Goku bother to teach Gotenks and Trunks?

. More consistent art and animation, better character development for the cast, better overall direction.

I can't remember any scene from an animation standpoint in Z flow as smoothly as some of the sequences I've seen in Super. As for character development, the Buu arc was rather Saiyan obsessed, can't really agree with development for the overall cast other than Vegeta. And direction? just no, with all that mind number filler I can't agree with that at all. Music is alittle more subjective but I found a lot in the Zamasu arc and the current arc to be pretty great.

Thanks for proving my point. We went down this road as well. You are being reductive. "nothing more", no, there are reasons why Goku and Vegeta wouldn't turn to Gohan. Could the story have given better reasons to exclude Gohan? Sure, but there aren't no in-universe rationales for it. There is SOMETHING to what you say, but it's not all there is. To be frank, I'm glad Gohan was excluded because keeping it about Goku and Vegeta made the fight far more interesting than if it had involved Gohan and Gotenks.

Not sure what your point about Gotenks is.

Even if the Buu arc's character development is limited to Vegeta, that's a great arc. It's among Dragon Ball's best character arcs.

[MR.Mark]

Exactly, you back up my point by admitting that Goku and Vegeta vs Buu was more interesting from a PLOT perspective, and I AGREE with this.

BUT, that STILL doesn't mean it makes a lick of sense when even Goku says "OH YEAH WE CAN USE THE BOYS" only to have Vegeta go "LOL NOPE EARTHLING TIME CUZ RESPONSIBILITY MOFO!"

I bring up Gotenks because there's many instances early in the Buu arc that Goku WAS'NT looking for a good fight, actually it was Vegeta that was more obsessed with his pride to fight Goku. Goku went with Kaioshin first and foremost to HELP, making Vegeta angry because HE wanted to fight. He avoided fighting Vegeta until he was forced into it by Vegeta's murders. It was actually around the introduction of SSJ3 that Goku decisions start getting spotty and inconsistent and then leaning toward selfish near the very end.