And even if any of that is true, da fuck does this have to do with Toriyama being senile? You can still write stuff people don't like while being perfectly fine. I mean, look at Toyotaro.HeroR wrote:You keep saying stuff like this despite Super keeping the exact ranking it had for months. One Piece's ratings is also down, much be because no one like Whole Cake Island. And why is MHA, the best Shounen on right now according to you, so low compared to Super and One Piece and doing worse than the show it replaced?perucho1990 wrote:The ratings is great proof that the japanese fans dont care much about the ToP because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up.HeroR wrote:
So Toriyama not writing the way or what you want is him being senile? Yeah, keep it classy.
There is also clear PIS like Jiren failing to eliminate Kale, and Jiren might go down due big time PIS too, which would make him one of the worst antagonists in Shounen since Acnologia..
Also, did you take a poll or asked the Japanese fandom that they don't like the TOP because "because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up" or are you talking out of your ass?
Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Personally opinion, Toriyama does his best when his work is merged with Toei. History of Trunks is a good example. He made a good base for the story in his manga, but it was hampered by being rushed. The special took the same story, flushed it out, and put so much heart into it that even people who hate Toei adores it. I think that's the problem with Minus. It tells a good story, Imo, but it needs to be flush out. Toriyama's biggest issue, Imo, is that he doesn't fully develop his ideas at times and his stories usually benefits having someone else or even himself when he has time to fill it in more.Kanassa wrote: Well... You just made me rethink my statement. I DON'T LIKE THINKING!
I would say yes and no.Lord Beerus wrote: I think Toriyama works better when he has to improsive. With what's going in Super he's very much planning, in a very basic sense, out how arcs start, progress and finish. And given how the narrative of the more modern additions to Dragon Ball's story personally penned by him (Dragon Ball Minus, Resurrection F and Super) can be a bit contained and too safe for their own good at times, it's very apparent to see that Toriyama's strong suit is when he's pressed up against a wall and has to think quickly on his feet to come up with a resolution that fits well with what was previously established. 80% of time it worked very well in the manga.
Battle of Gods is some of the best stuff he wrote along with Jaco that really expanded the Dragon Ball lore for the first time in decades. It was risky and daring and it gave Dragon Ball as a whole a new life. Minus needed to be a short series like Jaco and not just a bonus chapter. Resurrection 'F', I do agree with that. It was a very safe film by Toriyama's standards.
While Super is more 'contain' it also tells a more put together story while Dragon Ball can be disjointed in many places like how the Cell and Buu Sagas have almost no connection to each other. The Future Trunks Saga, Imo, was also risky since although it did bring back a fan-favorite and an 'evil Goku' it also did it by getting the future timeline nuke and a villain who wasn't evil for the sake of being evil, something that I am glad Toriyama adaptive into his newer work. So far, only Freeza has been the 'classic' villain and even he evolved with his return in the TOP.
But I will admit that Toriyama did do some of his most masterful work when he was writing on the fly, had no clue what was going to happened, and or just trolling his fans.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Can anyone explain me the difference between the manga and anime of that special ,apparently I'm hearing trunks transformation wasn't triggered by ft Gohan death in the manga,are they any more difference aside from thisHeroR wrote:Personally opinion, Toriyama does his best when his work is merged with Toei. History of Trunks is a good example. He made a good base for the story in his manga, but it was hampered by being rushed. The special took the same story, flushed it out, and put so much heart into it that even people who hate Toei adores it. I think that's the problem with Minus. It tells a good story, Imo, but it needs to be flush out. Toriyama's biggest issue, Imo, is that he doesn't fully develop his ideas at times and his stories usually benefits having someone else or even himself when he has time to fill it in more.Kanassa wrote: Well... You just made me rethink my statement. I DON'T LIKE THINKING!
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Off the top of my head, it's been a while since I read the manga version of History of Trunks:The gr wrote: Can anyone explain me the difference between the manga and anime of that ova,apparently I'm hearing trunks transformation wasn't triggered by ft Gohan death,are they any more difference aside from this
Trunks already had Super Saiyan before Gohan died. So Gohan went and got himself killed for nothing. It also makes Gohan look more stupid for knocking out Trunks unlike the TV special since Trunks wasn't a Super Saiyan in the special and would have just died to the androids. So Gohan knocking out Trunks was far more justified.
Gohan's final fight with the androids and the his death all happened off-scene. Gohan charges the androids, 17 mocks him by saying he only used half of his power last time, Gohan gets a shock/horrified look on his face, and then Trunks finds Gohan's body. It's almost comical. The anime gave Gohan one final stand and made it so he was stronger than the androids individually and lost because he couldn't overcome the Androids' teamwork and endless stamina. We also see Gohan's death, which is by far one of the most brutal deaths in the franchise. To this day, I can't watch it without almost crying.
We see far more of the Androids destroying the world. In the manga, we see them shoot some random building and 17 musing about running over people in a car. In the special, 17 actually does it and we see far more of the Androids being sadistic assholes.
Gohan and Trunks have several scenes bonding, including Gohan telling him about how he first went Super Saiyan. The manga only had the scene on the cliff before Gohan's final battle. We also see the battle where Gohan lost his arm where the event was only mentioned in the manga.
Three years after Gohan's death, Trunks goes to fight the Androids. In the manga, the battle happened off-scene and the next scene is Trunks bedridden. In the anime, we get to see Trunks fight and fail against the Androids and nearly dies.
Those are the key differences I remember.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
I completelty forgot about Jaco. Yes, that was a really great spin-off story of Dragon Ball and shows how well Toriyama's writing works when he does his shit on the fly. Battle Of Gods was technically a Toei concept, but Toriyama did jump on board quite early on in production and radically changed the character designs, baseline plot and general atmosphere of the movie. The fundementals of him working to his whim, in regards to writing shit on the fly to what pertains his interest the most, was certainly very apparent and made the film much better and more "Dragon Ball-esque" than what Toei were originally going for. (Beerus being a Lizard who infected people with evil, making Goku fight his friends and question what it means to be a "hero" and Super Saiyan God Goku having a cape)HeroR wrote:I would say yes and no.Lord Beerus wrote: I think Toriyama works better when he has to improsive. With what's going in Super he's very much planning, in a very basic sense, out how arcs start, progress and finish. And given how the narrative of the more modern additions to Dragon Ball's story personally penned by him (Dragon Ball Minus, Resurrection F and Super) can be a bit contained and too safe for their own good at times, it's very apparent to see that Toriyama's strong suit is when he's pressed up against a wall and has to think quickly on his feet to come up with a resolution that fits well with what was previously established. 80% of time it worked very well in the manga.
Battle of Gods is some of the best stuff he wrote along with Jaco that really expanded the Dragon Ball lore for the first time in decades. It was risky and daring and it gave Dragon Ball as a whole a new life. Minus needed to be a short series like Jaco and not just a bonus chapter. Resurrection 'F', I do agree with that. It was a very safe film by Toriyama's standards.
While Super is more 'contain' it also tells a more put together story while Dragon Ball can be disjointed in many places like how the Cell and Buu Sagas have almost no connection to each other. The Future Trunks Saga, Imo, was also risky since although it did bring back a fan-favorite and an 'evil Goku' it also did it by getting the future timeline nuke and a villain who wasn't evil for the sake of being evil, something that I am glad Toriyama adaptive into his newer work. So far, only Freeza has been the 'classic' villain and even he evolved with his return in the TOP.
But I will admit that Toriyama did do some of his most masterful work when he was writing on the fly, had no clue what was going to happened, and or just trolling his fans.
Spoiler:
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
While the idea of Battle of Gods was Toei's idea, Toriyama scrapped almost the entire script to the point that the only things kept from my knowledge were Beerus (who got a whole new personality, origin, and didn't corrupt people), Super Saiyan God (where he threw out the original design), and there being a party. For all practically purposes, Battle of Gods was written by Toriyama since he took what sounded like a typical Toei movie that recycled the Garlic Jr Saga (again) and turned it to a movie that would define Dragon Ball for probably the next decade.Lord Beerus wrote: I completelty forgot about Jaco. Yes, that was a really great spin-off story of Dragon Ball and shows how well Toriyama's writing works when he does his shit on the fly. Battle Of Gods was technically a Toei concept, but Toriyama did jump on board quite early on in production and radically changed the character designs, baseline plot and general atmosphere of the movie. The fundementals of him working to his whim, in regards to writing shit on the fly to what pertains his interest the most, was certainly very apparent and made the film much better and more "Dragon Ball-esque" than what Toei were originally going for. (Beerus being a Lizard who infected people with evil, making Goku fight his friends and question what it means to be a "hero" and Super Saiyan God Goku having a cape)
He had something to prove since he didn't want Evolution to be the last project with his name on it.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Cracker vs Luffy was mostly bad, Botamo vs Gohan level of bad, the main hook of the Whole Cake Island is the wedding ceremony, OP is still fine.HeroR wrote:
You keep saying stuff like this despite Super keeping the exact ranking it had for months. One Piece's ratings is also down, much be because no one like Whole Cake Island. And why is MHA, the best Shounen on right now according to you, so low compared to Super and One Piece and doing worse than the show it replaced?
Also, did you take a poll or asked the Japanese fandom that they don't like the TOP because "because its mostly filled with fodder/secondary characters that havent being built up" or are you talking out of your ass?
.
MHA is still a young series, and its has done better than expected(getting better ratings than Shippuden and Boruto, considering they havent covered their best Saga yet, which will be saved for Season 3 in 2018).
Some fans here were expecting all the Universes to be relevant, and not all of the fighers shouldve been Blue level, if there were more fighters like Obuni then the ToP couldve been better.
Imagine how better would be if more non U6/U7 people were to eliminate people, although it was a good decison all of U7 got to eliminate at least 1 fighter.
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
I just don't get why they couldn't have most of the fighters getting eliminated off-screen. They would have saved on the designs. If Toyotaro actually goes this route I wouldn't complain.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
What I consider canonical
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
I'm already indifferent to this... if it happens to fodder characters. But if it happens to characters that are built up in some way I will rage. This goes for the anime and the manga. The anime has had a character eliminated off-screen, but thankfully it was a throwaway character (That bunny girl character from Universe 9).emperior wrote:I just don't get why they couldn't have most of the fighters getting eliminated off-screen. They would have saved on the designs. If Toyotaro actually goes this route I wouldn't complain.
Spoiler:
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
I was referring to fodder characters. I didn't like that Cabba dealt with Niggrisshi so easily. They should have wasted someone else considering Niggrisshi was hyped up in a episode.Lord Beerus wrote:I'm already indifferent to this... if it happens to fodder characters. But if it happens to characters that are built up in some way I will rage. This goes for the anime and the manga. The anime has had a character eliminated off-screen, but thankfully it was a throwaway character (That bunny girl character from Universe 9).emperior wrote:I just don't get why they couldn't have most of the fighters getting eliminated off-screen. They would have saved on the designs. If Toyotaro actually goes this route I wouldn't complain.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
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Spoiler:
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Right, fans knew that the fight would be bad for them NEP.... That isn't how that works. On top of that, One Piece's ratings have been down before the Cracker vs Luffy fight. MHA have a manga to promote it weekly, unlike Boruto and you claimed that people are moving around from because it's bad, but MHA is on its second season, is lower than Super, and doing worse than the show it replaced. In comparison, Super during the retellings got better ratings than MHA and was higher rated outside of a few episodes in the Resurrection 'F' Saga.perucho1990 wrote:HeroR wrote:
Cracker vs Luffy was mostly bad, Botamo vs Gohan level of bad, the main hook of the Whole Cake Island is the wedding ceremony, OP is still fine.
MHA is still a young series, and its has done better than expected(getting better ratings than Shippuden and Boruto, considering they havent covered their best Saga yet, which will be saved for Season 3 in 2018).
Some fans here were expecting all the Universes to be relevant, and not all of the fighers shouldve been Blue level, if there were more fighters like Obuni then the ToP couldve been better.
Imagine how better would be if more non U6/U7 people were to eliminate people, although it was a good decison all of U7 got to eliminate at least 1 fighter.
Only a few expected a lot of fighters to be Blue level and if everyone was as strong as Obuni, most of U7 would have no one to fight. And again, have you been talking to Japanese viewers or are you talking out of your ass?
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Yeah, they wasted Niggrisshi. I'd say he's been the only been the character so far to have been treated as some kind of a big deal and has objectively failed to deliver in the big stage.emperior wrote:I was referring to fodder characters. I didn't like that Cabba dealt with Niggrisshi so easily. They should have wasted someone else considering Niggrisshi was hyped up in a episode.Lord Beerus wrote:I'm already indifferent to this... if it happens to fodder characters. But if it happens to characters that are built up in some way I will rage. This goes for the anime and the manga. The anime has had a character eliminated off-screen, but thankfully it was a throwaway character (That bunny girl character from Universe 9).emperior wrote:I just don't get why they couldn't have most of the fighters getting eliminated off-screen. They would have saved on the designs. If Toyotaro actually goes this route I wouldn't complain.
Spoiler:
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Boruto has a manga(monthly released but they have a manga).
The current ratings for MHA is impressive because the series has existed for like what? 3-4 years? Compared to DB franchise which is around 30+ years of existance.
Obuni wasnt also strong but also someone who wasnt rogue and arrogant like most people that have fought Universe 7(U9 comes to mind), more people like him(with babyface aspects) are also needed.
Having most of the participants acting like villains makes the whole kinda generic and predictable.
Not all of secondary characters need to be as strong as Obuni, some shouldve been strong enough to challenge SSJ level people.
The current ratings for MHA is impressive because the series has existed for like what? 3-4 years? Compared to DB franchise which is around 30+ years of existance.
Obuni wasnt also strong but also someone who wasnt rogue and arrogant like most people that have fought Universe 7(U9 comes to mind), more people like him(with babyface aspects) are also needed.
Having most of the participants acting like villains makes the whole kinda generic and predictable.
Not all of secondary characters need to be as strong as Obuni, some shouldve been strong enough to challenge SSJ level people.
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Three participants out of 80 is not most.perucho1990 wrote:Having most of the participants acting like villains makes the whole kinda generic and predictable.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Universe 9, half of Universe 10 were big time douches.Kanassa wrote: Three participants out of 80 is not most.
Another point that has been mentioned was why is everyone targetting U7? We shouldve seen the key players of the other Universes eliminating people, build them up so when U6/U7 main players get to fight them, it will be a big deal when they defeat them.
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Because the tournament works like this: unless Goku or Freeza are somehow involved, nobody can do anything of actual worth. Goku has to be involved with U9 getting smashed, he has to be targeted by Sailor Moon, he's the one who has to piss off Kale, he's the one who has to help Hit against Dypso and oh my God why the fuck is anyone but Goku even in this thing if that's how the story works?!perucho1990 wrote:Universe 9, half of Universe 10 were big time douches.Kanassa wrote: Three participants out of 80 is not most.
Another point that has been mentioned was why is everyone targetting U7? We shouldve seen the key players of the other Universes eliminating people, build them up so when U6/U7 main players get to fight them, it will be a big deal when they defeat them.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Universe 9 wasn't villainous, aside from Lavender they were mostly just cocky or desperate. And Universe 10 only had two characters you could call villainous for their treatment of Kale, but the rest established nothing villainous outside of maybe taking steroids.perucho1990 wrote:Universe 9, half of Universe 10 were big time douches.Kanassa wrote: Three participants out of 80 is not most.
So, yeah, still three.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
To be fair, the narrative did set up Goku to be a central focus. With how he was exposed to be the one to suggest the Tournament of Power, how casual he acted towards Zeno and how he goaded the rest of the Hakaishin and Kaioshin into bringing their best fighters of their universe so he can beat them. Hell, there's even a scene where the Hakaishin and Kaioshin other universes that are taking part in the Tournament Of Power hold a secreting meeting and discussed Goku's behavior at the Zen Exhibition matches. But even despite all that, when the tournament started, we were still given plenty of screen time for guys like Krillin, Android 17, Android 18 and we even see Roshi/Tien/Krillin/Gohan all worked together to eliminate some people.ekrolo2 wrote:Because the tournament works like this: unless Goku or Freeza are somehow involved, nobody can do anything of actual worth. Goku has to be involved with U9 getting smashed, he has to be targeted by Sailor Moon, he's the one who has to piss off Kale, he's the one who has to help Hit against Dypso and oh my God why the fuck is anyone but Goku even in this thing if that's how the story works?!perucho1990 wrote:Universe 9, half of Universe 10 were big time douches.Kanassa wrote: Three participants out of 80 is not most.
Another point that has been mentioned was why is everyone targetting U7? We shouldve seen the key players of the other Universes eliminating people, build them up so when U6/U7 main players get to fight them, it will be a big deal when they defeat them.
Spoiler:
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Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Thats usually a villain trait tbh. Most of U9 warriors were very arrogant and cocky.Kanassa wrote: Universe 9 wasn't villainous, aside from Lavender they were mostly just cocky or desperate. And Universe 10 only had two characters you could call villainous for their treatment of Kale, but the rest established nothing villainous outside of maybe taking steroids.
So, yeah, still three.
But anyways, I kinda look forward to the next chapter, the Zen Exhibition matches were probably Toeis idea not only to give more time to the animators to work the ToP but also to give the likes of Buu time in the spotlight.
Re: Super's Manga vs Super's Anime Discussion
Oddly enough, the focus on Goku doesn't really work for me. I mean, U9 trying and failing to stop him made sense but why the fuck does the show keep giving him worthless shit tier mooks to fight? If you really want to show off the whole "everyone's gonna gun for Goku!" hows about having the people who matter target him like Toppo and Jiren?Lord Beerus wrote:To be fair, the narrative did set up Goku to be a central focus. With how he was exposed to be the one to suggest the Tournament of Power, how casual he acted towards Zeno and how he goaded the rest of the Hakaishin and Kaioshin into bringing their best fighters of their universe so he can beat them. Hell, there's even a scene where the Hakaishin and Kaioshin other universes that are taking part in the Tournament Of Power hold a secreting meeting and discussed Goku's behavior at the Zen Exhibition matches. But even despite all that, when the tournament started, we were still given plenty of screen time for guys like Krillin, Android 17, Android 18 and we even see Roshi/Tien/Krillin/Gohan all worked together to eliminate some people.
Let the worthless shit tiers of U7 fight their multi verse counterparts while Goku, Vegeta, and Freeza fight the people who they CAN'T rofl stomp in under a nanosecond under anything resembling actually good circumstances IE not "Super Saiyan Blue is really wasteful so I'm gonna use it to blast away worthless shit tier mooks who I just finished beating up with regular Super Saiyan!".
Does Goku REALLY need to be tied to Kale or Ribriane? Why can't they be the nemeses of Gohan or Piccolo or some shit?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler: