So idk if there has been a thread on this but manga or anime as canon???

[SSJ Ace Son]

Ok, so i just wanna know....is the Super manga canon or is the anime canon? Or your opinons.......

[Polyphase Avatron]

Neither of them is uncontrovertably canon over the other.

[Meshack]

They’re both canon. They’re different interpretations or events based on Toriyama’s outline that is given to both groups (Toei Animation and Toyotarou).

[Nero<>Akira]

Anime is the canon officially. Manga is also canon and near equal interpretation of AT's Super story, but is still officially an adaptation of the anime.

[Kinokima]

Anime is the canon officially. Manga is also canon and near equal interpretation of AT's Super story, but is still officially an adaptation of the anime.

This isn’t true! The manga is not an adaption of the anime. Both are separate adaptions of Toriyama’s outline.

[sintzu]

The basic stories in Toriyama's outlines that we most likely won't see are what's canon. The anime and manga get those outlines and put their twist on them to fit the medium they're working on.

Personally I take the movies and manga (starting form Champa) as "canon" so it's up to you.

[Asura]

Nope, never been a thread before on whether the manga or anime is canon. This one's the first.

They're both canon, just different interpretations of the same events that reach the same conclusion (EoZ)

[gofishus]

Yeah both canon but some things are only in one continuity but not the other. For example, SSG Vegeta is canon to the manga only whereas SSJ Rage is canon to the anime only.

[Analytical Delusion]

Honestly it's hard to tell. Instead of being the writer here, Toriyama is writing the original outlines, and Toyotaro and Toei adapt it. It seems there is some editorial process with the manga, with Toriyama reviewing Toyotaro's storyboard, making suggestions, and then after a draft is ready, approving or changing what he sees for. Toei doesn't seem to be working *as* closely but from their interviews, they're not pulling anything out of their asses. They have some creative license, as does Toyotaro.

Personally, I've settled on the anime until Champa arrives on Beerus's planet, and the manga thereafter as my canon (since the manga was promotional early on; it still kind of is but it has taken a life of its own). I do love the animation and choreography of the anime though.

[Grimlock]

I would say neither. Toriyama's outline is canonical.

But since you don't have access to what Toriyama writes, you're free to choose either Toei's or Toyotaro's version of their adaptations over Toriyama's outline. Remember that you cannot put together both stories, as they have their own set of rules and logic that do not actually work with one another. Toei's version also contains filler scenes, episodes and even entire sagas, so you might want to get tuned about that too. Though Toyotaro's version, his manga, is to be seen as a promotional material (there's a post from VegettoEX about that but I can't find it).

[Meshack]

I would say neither. Toriyama's outline is canonical.

But since you don't have access to what Toriyama writes, you're free to choose either Toei's or Toyotaro's version of their adaptations over Toriyama's outline. Remember that you cannot put together both stories, as they have their own set of rules and logic that do not actually work with one another. Toei's version also contains filler scenes, episodes and even entire sagas, so you might want to get tuned about that too. Though Toyotaro's version, his manga, is to be seen as a promotional material (there's a post from VegettoEX about that but I can't find it).

How is the manga promotional material when Toyotarou actually works on stuff, gives his input, and has his own interpretation? I don’t recall Super Saiyan Rage being included in the manga. I don’t recall seeing Super Saiyan Gokuh-Black in the anime

[sintzu]

How is the manga promotional material when Toyotarou actually works on stuff, gives his input, and has his own interpretation?

That's because it started out like that but some don't want to admit that it's evolved into something more.

[Grimlock]

How is the manga promotional material when Toyotarou actually works on stuff, gives his input, and has his own interpretation?

Well, some people also say that Ooishi Naho's Episode of Bardock is just a promotional material too. Even though she works on stuff, gives her input and gives her own interpretation.

Anyways, I found VegettoEX's post about it.

We knew it was only a companion, promotional piece from the start and can still consider it that for a variety of reasons, many of which have been outright stated, but others you just need to look at it in context to understand:

It's published in V-Jump

V-Jump is a monthly publication, and is Shueisha's multimedia-focused magazine (primarily for video game coverage, but also to help promote their various properties). It's not where their properties LIVE, it's where their properties get PROMOTED. V-Jump has decent circulation, but it's not a primary location that Shueisha publishes manga within. The big one is, obviously enough, Weekly Shonen Jump; that's where Dragon Ball was originally serialized, and it's where all the actual heavy-hitters go. If you're big-time, you're not in V-Jump. You're in V-Jump if you're supplementing or promoting something else. It's for spin-offs and sequels, not main products.

It's written by a different artist under a pseudonym

Toyotaro is not Akira Toriyama. I mean, that's totally obvious, but it's an important point. Sure, we know Toriyama's not really interested in writing major manga series anymore (particularly on a strict weekly schedule), but that someone else is handling the manga adaptation speaks volumes. You can promote it's new Dragon Ball, but you can't promote that it's new Dragon Ball direct from the pen of the original author himself. That already knocks it down a peg. Regardless of Toyotaro's talent and what Toriyama says about him, at the end of the day, he's just not Toriyama. Furthermore, he doesn't even have his own real name - he's just a semi-anonymous figurehead for Shueisha to trot out.

It's not a stand-alone product in and of itself

The earlier Battle of Gods manga chapters jump all over the place, and though it's a continuing story, for a little bit there it doesn't literally go from the exact same setup/scene to the next appropriate scene on a chapter-by-chapter basis. Once you get past that, you suddenly skip an entire story arc. Unless you understand what the Dragon Ball Super manga is, and can contextually place it among the other stuff going on and being released, it's not the easiest thing in the world to follow. Sure, you can fill in the holes on your own, but an actual story doesn't get written that way when it's supposed to stand on its own.

We were told it was a "comicalization" from the start

Right with the first chapter, Toyotaro said:

Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!

You have to read between the lines there a little bit, but not so much that it's not clear: the manga isn't the main product here.

Sooooooooo...

Yes, Toyotaro's comic seems to, in some ways, be its own independent adaptation of Toriyama's scripts/plot-points. Toyotaro gets to do his own thing from time to time, adding his own flourishes, focusing on certain aspects, and telling the series of events in slightly different ways. At the end of the day though, he and his product are in the position of supporting something else.

No matter if your favorite character is better used in a specific place and if your inner fanboy blinds you. It's still a promotional material.

[sintzu]

No matter if your favorite character is better used in a specific place and if your inner fanboy blinds you. It's still a promotional material.

Wouldn't a promotional thing just follow the anime step by step ? not only is it doing its own thing but you've got the original author himself being hands on with it. It doesn't matter how it started, the high sales have clearly led to it evolving into something more. Sure it's not the main product but it's also not some useless side thing that no one cares about, the fans like it and clearly Toriyama does or otherwise he wouldn't be as involved with it as he is.

[Meshack]

No matter if your favorite character is better used in a specific place and if your inner fanboy blinds you. It's still a promotional material.

Wouldn't a promotional thing just follow the anime step by step ? not only is it doing its own thing but you've got the original author himself being hands on with it. It doesn't matter how it started, the high sales have clearly led to it evolving into something more. Sure it's not the main product but it's also not some useless side thing that no one cares about, the fans like it and clearly Toriyama does or otherwise he wouldn't be as involved with it as he is.

Yeah

[VegettoEX]

I've.......... never actually said that this can't simultaneously be promotional and yet still go off in its own direction.

Yes, clearly the Super manga has gained some degree of independence. Yes, clearly Toyotaro has been given a chance to incorporate ideas of his own, some of which are now part of the overall design provided to all teams (see: various Gods of Destruction).

The manga is very neat, and it's gotten itself into a fascinating position.

I stand by everything else I've explained, though. He's a semi-anonymous illustrator working under a pen-name being serialized in the company's monthly promotional magazine. Furthermore, the earlier parts of the manga do not stand on their own, requiring outside knowledge of the series to piece together. It's an incomplete product that has been leveraged at different points to hype up both forthcoming material (see: initial U6 arc) and completed material (see: keeping the Future Trunks arc relevant for eight months after its completion on TV).

Dragon Ball Super was initially conceived as a television series, and ended up with a different interpretation in another medium. If you happen to like one or even both, that's fantastic.

[Meshack]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

How is the manga promotional material when Toyotarou actually works on stuff, gives his input, and has his own interpretation?

Well, some people also say that Ooishi Naho's Episode of Bardock is just a promotional material too. Even though she works on stuff, gives her input and gives her own interpretation.

Anyways, I found VegettoEX's post about it.

We knew it was only a companion, promotional piece from the start and can still consider it that for a variety of reasons, many of which have been outright stated, but others you just need to look at it in context to understand:

It's published in V-Jump

V-Jump is a monthly publication, and is Shueisha's multimedia-focused magazine (primarily for video game coverage, but also to help promote their various properties). It's not where their properties LIVE, it's where their properties get PROMOTED. V-Jump has decent circulation, but it's not a primary location that Shueisha publishes manga within. The big one is, obviously enough, Weekly Shonen Jump; that's where Dragon Ball was originally serialized, and it's where all the actual heavy-hitters go. If you're big-time, you're not in V-Jump. You're in V-Jump if you're supplementing or promoting something else. It's for spin-offs and sequels, not main products.

It's written by a different artist under a pseudonym

Toyotaro is not Akira Toriyama. I mean, that's totally obvious, but it's an important point. Sure, we know Toriyama's not really interested in writing major manga series anymore (particularly on a strict weekly schedule), but that someone else is handling the manga adaptation speaks volumes. You can promote it's new Dragon Ball, but you can't promote that it's new Dragon Ball direct from the pen of the original author himself. That already knocks it down a peg. Regardless of Toyotaro's talent and what Toriyama says about him, at the end of the day, he's just not Toriyama. Furthermore, he doesn't even have his own real name - he's just a semi-anonymous figurehead for Shueisha to trot out.

It's not a stand-alone product in and of itself

The earlier Battle of Gods manga chapters jump all over the place, and though it's a continuing story, for a little bit there it doesn't literally go from the exact same setup/scene to the next appropriate scene on a chapter-by-chapter basis. Once you get past that, you suddenly skip an entire story arc. Unless you understand what the Dragon Ball Super manga is, and can contextually place it among the other stuff going on and being released, it's not the easiest thing in the world to follow. Sure, you can fill in the holes on your own, but an actual story doesn't get written that way when it's supposed to stand on its own.

We were told it was a "comicalization" from the start

Right with the first chapter, Toyotaro said:

Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!

You have to read between the lines there a little bit, but not so much that it's not clear: the manga isn't the main product here.

Sooooooooo...

Yes, Toyotaro's comic seems to, in some ways, be its own independent adaptation of Toriyama's scripts/plot-points. Toyotaro gets to do his own thing from time to time, adding his own flourishes, focusing on certain aspects, and telling the series of events in slightly different ways. At the end of the day though, he and his product are in the position of supporting something else.

No matter if your favorite character is better used in a specific place and if your inner fanboy blinds you. It's still a promotional material.

Unless it’s said officially, I’m not gonna blindly follow someone because he’s credible. Try to think for yourself sometime.

[Meshack]

I've.......... never actually said that this can't simultaneously be promotional and yet still go off in its own direction.

Yes, clearly the Super manga has gained some degree of independence. Yes, clearly Toyotaro has been given a chance to incorporate ideas of his own, some of which are now part of the overall design provided to all teams (see: various Gods of Destruction).

The manga is very neat, and it's gotten itself into a fascinating position.

I stand by everything else I've explained, though. He's a semi-anonymous illustrator working under a pen-name being serialized in the company's monthly promotional magazine. Furthermore, the earlier parts of the manga do not stand on their own, requiring outside knowledge of the series to piece together. It's an incomplete product that has been leveraged at different points to hype up both forthcoming material (see: initial U6 arc) and completed material (see: keeping the Future Trunks arc relevant for eight months after its completion on TV).

Dragon Ball Super was initially conceived as a television series, and ended up with a different interpretation in another medium. If you happen to like one or even both, that's fantastic.

Wouldn’t you say that Toyotarou is tied to Vjump due to working on DBHVM, a manga adaptation for an actual video game? I believe that’s the reason he’s not in Weekly Jump. Even the manga adaptation for Resurrection F was in Vjump.

[sintzu]

The earlier parts of the manga do not stand on their own, requiring outside knowledge of the series to piece together.

One could just watch the 2 movies then move on to Champa's manga arc with no problems. It happens with other franchises so why not here ? I don't see anyone calling the new star wars game a side thing because it requires previous knowledge of another format (the movies).

[Zephyr]

I think the most simple approach to DB "canon" is that the "source material" is the "most" "canon". So in the case of "Super", I'd personally be most inclined toward the films (and in the case of the original manga, I'd go with the WSJ serialization). But simple doesn't necessarily mean correct.

Beyond that, there are other metrics one could use to determine what is "more" "canon". As mentioned, Toriyama appears to have more of a hand in touching up the manga to his liking. Yet also as mentioned, the manga is promotional for the anime; and the anime is the version upon which the merchandise appears to be based (namely video games).

I'm personally more invested in the manga than the anime, because it feels more like an extension of Toriyama's hand than does the anime. The anime has so much additional material that it feels bloated. The anime doesn't seem to have as many (if any) explicit acknowledgement of direct revision by the man's hand. And the anime is filled, so frequently, with so many damn Toei-isms, that it's often more reminiscent of Toei's prior Dragon Ball TV anime than it is Toriyama's prior Dragon Ball manga. I dunno if "authentic" serves as a good word, but I guess the Super manga feels "closer" to being "more" "authentic" to me, as a continuation of Toriyama's Dragon Ball, than does the Super anime.

But just as "being promotional" and "being canon" aren't mutually exclusive (and just as "being a side story" and "being canon" aren't mutually exclusive), being "authentic" and being "non-canon" aren't mutually exclusive either. So the above doesn't really answer the question, but I'm not sure if anything really definitively does.