Unpopular DB opinions
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
How was Yamcha the measuring stick?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
. His rep from the earlier fight with Goku is what the main character uses to sell Jackie Chun as someone stronger that he`s ever seen, even before Yamcha is out of the ring.ABED wrote:How was Yamcha the measuring stick?
. Baba Demon`s Toilet where he reaches third round is used to contrast with the ease Goku takes Mummy and Akumman.
. Yamcha is the first to give a real challenge to Tenshinhan and is self explanatory.
. His fall with Gero is to give the villain the necessary start up in stolen energy, effectively introducing a mechanic that is used to weaken Goku and get the drop on Piccolo before Gohan`s save. He`s also explicity given a power reading that sells these androids - who are weaker than the others to begin wih - on a higher plateu tha anything that has happened on Earth up at this point.
Those are the easy ones.
Last edited by Olympian on Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Toryama never explicity takes a shot at the meme thing until Super and neither really does Toei. The best example at the time was Yamcha winging training for the androids by goofing around at the gym where in the chapter artwork in the manga he`s seen training with the usual focus like everybody else, Chiatzu included.DragonBallKing wrote:Fuimation,Toei,Toriyama,TFS they all love to take a shot at him to fuel his status as a giant meme. I still like his character for what it's worth.
Toei later adresses the shot back with the Olibu scene. Even then, with not training seriously, Toei almost always made him look better than Kuririn in comparsion.
I get the message you`re trying to come across but not a single character in Dragon Ball is without gag elements. Not one. Yamcha being a otherwise badass who could challenge the main character of the story but is afraid of pretty girls is just that, a gag element, that wouldn´t impair him unless he was actually fighting a pretty girl back then. His skill and the lip service he`s gotten over the origial work and anime are proof enough. Nobody calls Roshi a wash out anymore despite staying on the sidelines far longer with an equalling empairing gag element that oftentimes comes across as straight rape tendencies but it`s the culture, it`s seen as a gag.DragonBallKing wrote:And in DB he was still a joke with his fear of women gag as well as being a measuring stick each tournament, are fans still not getting this? He still has his cool moments but you can't act like he hasn't always been the butt of jokes. I like Yamcha as well but I like both sides of the character.
Goku is a mountain child always clueless about everything that is not about fighting and that appearantly to this day still doesn`t know how babies are made or who`s never kissed his own wife, Beerus is a purple talking cat (not new I know) who`s the second strongest being in the universe who`s always hungry for more fast food tamtrums and we can count by the hand the number of times Kuririn was directly mocked or laugthed at by being bald or having no nose - none of that empaired the characters at being good at the main thing in the Manga: fighting. All Toryama/Toei is now doing is simply aknowledging in the show proper, the meme status of Yamcha and trying to subverted it in an episode where he does win, where he takes out the main character of the show because he doesn`t know how to play the game, where he stays out and survives something you shouldn`t while everybody else is behind the shield and the thing is used not to mock but subvert.
There`s the bad aspect of course, with trying to aknowledge something 10 years too late or how unecessary it is in the first place, I`m aware.
But alas, everybody is made to laugh and these days more than ever with Super playing more comedy bits since the OG.
Don`t believe me?
Crying Vegeta figure
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB1j49TZHIk
Last edited by Olympian on Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
A measuring stick is the standard, usually your best. Yamcha would not be that guy. Yamcha has a long history of losing fights, and at what point is it unimpressive when he loses to a stronger fighter? When Goku loses, you know it means something.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
You can ask Toryama one day if you get the chance. I`m not the one who wrote Kuririn and Goku in awe of Chun with Goku stating Yamcha is that good because of the fight they had.
Maybe more accurately woudld be to consider Yamcha in DB a measure stick, since he`s not the only one. Vegeta takes the jobber role pretty well since he was beaten on Earth and so does Piccolo in 90% of his movie appearances.
Maybe more accurately woudld be to consider Yamcha in DB a measure stick, since he`s not the only one. Vegeta takes the jobber role pretty well since he was beaten on Earth and so does Piccolo in 90% of his movie appearances.
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
So Yamcha is a measuring stick because he had a good fight years ago, but because Vegeta gets beaten a bunch of times, he's a jobber? Yamcha's the jobber. Beating him means nothing. Vegeta reaches damn near every milestone Goku does not that long afterward and yet HE is the jobber? While he loses a lot, beating Vegeta still means something. The cyborgs defeating Yamcha meant nothing. We still have zero idea how strong they are because Yamcha is among the weakest of the supporting characters. Goku losing to 19 meant way more and is a far better measuring stick.Olympian wrote:You can ask Toryama one day if you get the chance. I`m not the one who wrote Kuririn and Goku in awe of Chun with Goku stating Yamcha is that good because of the fight they had.
Maybe more accurately woudld be to consider Yamcha in DB a measure stick, since he`s not the only one. Vegeta takes the jobber role pretty well since he was beaten on Earth and so does Piccolo in 90% of his movie appearances.
I'm asking you because you were the one making the assertion.You can ask Toryama one day if you get the chance.
Once the strength of the characters goes to ungodly levels it does, beating Yamcha is not a useful frame of reference.
Uh, he's the first to challenge Tenshinhan in the main tournament, and by the end of the tournament, it's very clear that Tenshinhan wasn't using any of his real strength. Muten Roshi put up a better fight.Yamcha is the first to give a real challenge to Tenshinhan and is self explanatory.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Vegeta is most certainly a classic jobber most of the time. He gets zenkais, talks loud and usually gets the snot beaten out of him under Toryama`s pen. Gero stabing Yamcha means nothing to you but what was the stolen energy used for? To get a drop on Piccolo to start with.ABED wrote: Yamcha is a measuring stick because he had a good fight years ago, but because Vegeta gets beaten a bunch of times, he's a jobber? Yamcha's the jobber. Beating him means nothing. Vegeta reaches damn near every milestone Goku does not that long afterward and yet HE is the jobber? While he loses a lot, beating Vegeta still means something. The cyborgs defeating Yamcha meant nothing. We still have zero idea how strong they are because Yamcha is among the weakest of the supporting characters. Goku losing to 19 meant way more and is a far better measuring stick.
No qualms about Goku being the major measure stick, Dragon Ball simply doesn`t have the luxury of using him as one often because 90% of the times he hardly loses. Someone needs to introduce the villains so he doesn`t really work unless a scene plays like the TOP with Jiren or a King Piccolo sequence, aka: where Goku gets a second chance at the main antagonist after being the first to have the go at it. In those two scenes, he`s certainly the measure stick.
The assertion comes from dialogue written in the Manga.ABED wrote:I'm asking you because you were the one making the assertion.
It`s also made clear before they fight (and the anime used it to good effect) that Yamcha and Tenshinhan already hated each other`s guts before the match. He promply admits after the initial exchange of blows that Yamcha is indeed as good as he talks and after the fight where Chiatzu claims he had it easy, Tenshinhan says otherwise, whether he uses all he`s got or not.ABED wrote:Uh, he's the first to challenge Tenshinhan in the main tournament, and by the end of the tournament, it's very clear that Tenshinhan wasn't using any of his real strength. Muten Roshi put up a better fight.
Roshi didn`t use his full strenght against Tenshinhan either, the assassin even muses at it. He resigned and gave up because he finally saw a whole generation of new guns with the tools to surpass his own.
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
What do you think a measuring stick is?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
The Super Manga is way too fast paced. It feels like supplementary material rather than the definitive product.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
and Super Anime is way too slow.xpNc wrote:The Super Manga is way too fast paced. It feels like supplementary material rather than the definitive product.
I prefer Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, DB/Z/GT Movies, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT in Japanese.
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30
For DBZ Kai and two new Movies I like both Dub and Sub. I Prefer Shunsuke Kikuchi Soundtracks over All other Composers.
My MAL profile : https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ripper_30
- SupremeKai25
- I Live Here
- Posts: 4109
- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I actually adored the ending of the Future Trunks' arc, although i realize this is an unpopular opinion, since it is one of the most controversial topics and has been bashed countless times in the past. The good guy didn't defeat the mean guy and live happily ever after, so -clearly- it was a garbage ending /s.
As I adore Zamasu (he is, in fact, my absolute favourite character), you can't imagine how good it felt to watch Zamasu get his own back on Goku and friends and destroy almost every mortal in the Future timeline, succeeding in his twisted goal. His power was endless, he had transcended into a being beyond anyone's comprehension, as he merged with the Universe itself and became the very ideals of 'Order' and 'Justice'. This ending was foreshadowed throughout the arc. For example, when Goku Black was able to transcend time and space and tear a rift through the fabric of reality, boldly claiming that his power had surpassed even his own divine comprehension. Or when Gowasu mentioned twice that Fused Zamasu possessed an immortal soul and was blessed with endless potential and power. So it didn't really come out of the blue. There was build-up (albeit somewhat subtle) to Zamasu returning as an ethereal and spiritual 4th dimensional being and possessing the Universe.
Plus, for the first time, the good guys couldn't just use the Dragon Balls to restore what the villain undid. The Future timeline was gone forever. Although at the expense of his life, Zamasu ultimate achieved his twisted goal and put an end to all mortal life in the Future, and there is nothing Trunks and friends could do about it. Now, Trunks will spend the rest of his days tormented by his failure to protect his world, and by the shame brought by his crushing defeat. A fitting punishment for the heinous sins he committed against the sacred laws of the Gods.
I guess you could argue that Trunks didn't deserve to lose everything he had fought for, especially after he went through a lot of pain to defeat the Androids and Zamasu, but that's the point of the ending. It shows that there isn't always a positive outcome, that the good guys can also lose.
Fantastic and surprisingly tragic and mature ending to a superb arc.
As I adore Zamasu (he is, in fact, my absolute favourite character), you can't imagine how good it felt to watch Zamasu get his own back on Goku and friends and destroy almost every mortal in the Future timeline, succeeding in his twisted goal. His power was endless, he had transcended into a being beyond anyone's comprehension, as he merged with the Universe itself and became the very ideals of 'Order' and 'Justice'. This ending was foreshadowed throughout the arc. For example, when Goku Black was able to transcend time and space and tear a rift through the fabric of reality, boldly claiming that his power had surpassed even his own divine comprehension. Or when Gowasu mentioned twice that Fused Zamasu possessed an immortal soul and was blessed with endless potential and power. So it didn't really come out of the blue. There was build-up (albeit somewhat subtle) to Zamasu returning as an ethereal and spiritual 4th dimensional being and possessing the Universe.
Plus, for the first time, the good guys couldn't just use the Dragon Balls to restore what the villain undid. The Future timeline was gone forever. Although at the expense of his life, Zamasu ultimate achieved his twisted goal and put an end to all mortal life in the Future, and there is nothing Trunks and friends could do about it. Now, Trunks will spend the rest of his days tormented by his failure to protect his world, and by the shame brought by his crushing defeat. A fitting punishment for the heinous sins he committed against the sacred laws of the Gods.
I guess you could argue that Trunks didn't deserve to lose everything he had fought for, especially after he went through a lot of pain to defeat the Androids and Zamasu, but that's the point of the ending. It shows that there isn't always a positive outcome, that the good guys can also lose.
Fantastic and surprisingly tragic and mature ending to a superb arc.
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
To be fair, Trunks may have defeated the cyborgs, and his world rebuilt itself after years of being terrorized, but there was still loss. He's still the sole hero left. I know what you mean by good guys can lose, but his victory against them was far from easy.I guess you could argue that Trunks didn't deserve to lose everything he had fought for, especially after he went through a lot of pain to defeat the Androids and Zamasu, but that's the point of the ending. It shows that there isn't always a positive outcome, that the good guys can also lose.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
-
- Regular
- Posts: 604
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:44 pm
- Location: Oklahoma, USA
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I prefer the look of SSJB over SSJG. I just think the contrast of colors worked best, mainly in the ROF/ Champa arc outfits. Another reason they should have kept them .
Check out my MAL page: https://myanimelist.net/profile/RapeHorse
Original Dragon Ball arcs ranking: 23rd Budokai, Saiyan, 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, 22nd Budokai, DB Hunt, Cell, Buu
Original Dragon Ball arcs ranking: 23rd Budokai, Saiyan, 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, 22nd Budokai, DB Hunt, Cell, Buu
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I'd agree that Yamcha is a measuring stick, just not a measuring stick of power. His defeats usually aren't there to make the villain look stronger, it's there to make the villain look villainous. Him being beaten is simply the equivalent of the villain kicking a defenseless puppy.ABED wrote:So Yamcha is a measuring stick because he had a good fight years ago, but because Vegeta gets beaten a bunch of times, he's a jobber? Yamcha's the jobber. Beating him means nothing. Vegeta reaches damn near every milestone Goku does not that long afterward and yet HE is the jobber? While he loses a lot, beating Vegeta still means something. The cyborgs defeating Yamcha meant nothing. We still have zero idea how strong they are because Yamcha is among the weakest of the supporting characters. Goku losing to 19 meant way more and is a far better measuring stick.Olympian wrote:You can ask Toryama one day if you get the chance. I`m not the one who wrote Kuririn and Goku in awe of Chun with Goku stating Yamcha is that good because of the fight they had.
Maybe more accurately woudld be to consider Yamcha in DB a measure stick, since he`s not the only one. Vegeta takes the jobber role pretty well since he was beaten on Earth and so does Piccolo in 90% of his movie appearances.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
- Ringworm128
- Banned
- Posts: 2976
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:27 am
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
The "useless" characters were all used properly and contributed what they needed to for the story. If they all got more "development" the series would have dragged on more than it needed to, even without filler.
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
This is semantics, so take it or leave it, but I wouldn't consider that a measuring stick. I'd say Yamcha serves as a sacrificial pawn, but one we care about. Hopefully we like Yamcha so that when Dr. Gero almost kills him, it matters to the audience. Feel free to figure out a better analogy than that, but he's not THE or even A measuring stick.
Not if the story and characters were developed more effectively.If they all got more "development" the series would have dragged on more than it needed to, even without filler.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
The best one is arguably the main character but Chun`s rep isn`t introduced when he fights Goku, it`s introduced when he fights Yamcha and easily winds him off the ring after dancing around the attack that previously downed the main character. The ease at which he pulls it off it is what makes Goku be in awe of Chun since it`s a feat he could never have replicate at this point.
If the best is Goku and he hardly fights at first any opponent the longer the Manga goes on, who then gets to introduce them? The supporting cast who trails beside him, those are the next best uses to show off how powerful they are. That`s what jobbers are designed for.
If the best is Goku and he hardly fights at first any opponent the longer the Manga goes on, who then gets to introduce them? The supporting cast who trails beside him, those are the next best uses to show off how powerful they are. That`s what jobbers are designed for.
Ki Breaker wrote:
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi
Coincidence? I think not
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20282
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Jackie Chun is Muten Roshi. We know Jackie is good because we know Roshi is good. Tossing Yamcha out of the ring wasn't nearly as impressive as his match with Goku.
Since we are using wrestling terms, a measuring stick isn't the same as a jobber. A jobber just allows the stars to look strong for a short time and show off. Flair was often called "the measuring stick".That`s what jobbers are designed for.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Goku don't seem to care about rematches when he surpasses his rivals (apart from Tien and Hit)MR.Mark wrote:By the Cell arc Goku didn't seem to care about a rematch with Vegeta anymore.
But it's not the definitive product. Don't know why people ever came with this idea, the anime is the main product and the manga just serves to promote the latter.xpNc wrote:The Super Manga is way too fast paced. It feels like supplementary material rather than the definitive product.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Dragon Ball is capable of being translated to live action, most fans are to biased because they're so used to watching the anime a million times.