Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

Perhaps, regarding the Black Hole, 17 just didn't do much effort in a first moment, and Goku was simply the first to do it?
17 being weaker than base Goku makes no sense at all.

[namekiansaiyan]

Perhaps, regarding the Black Hole, 17 just didn't do much effort in a first moment, and Goku was simply the first to do it?
17 being weaker than base Goku makes no sense at all.

It makes more sense then him being Blue level after fighting some poachers on an island.

[Bullza]

Gowasu flat out says he's the strongest in episode 65.

Did he? I can't remember what was said now. I remember Black implying that he was stronger than them though.

The whole thing was kinda weird really. Just recently we saw how much stronger Base Kefla was, they said she got tens of times stronger. You'd think the same would be true for Merged Zamasu as well and that was also hinted at.

But Goku and Vegeta couldn't​ have been that far off from Merged Zamasu if they were able to overpower him and if Black is stronger than those two then that just keeps him even closer to Merged Zamasu.

I don't see how Merged Zamasu could be tens of times stronger than Black really.

[SupremeKai25]

Did he? I can't remember what was said now. I remember Black implying that he was stronger than them though.

They are probably referring to this line:



In addition, there is Black's statement in Ep. 64 about his power having surpassed even his own comprehension.

You'd think the same would be true for Merged Zamasu as well and that was also hinted at.

Fused Zamasu did have unlimited power and potential (he did - in fact - become the Universe itself and was spreading throughout timelines), but the reason he was overpowered by Vegeta, Trunks and later on Goku is because he wasn't even trying to win. He inherited Future Zamasu's cockiness and arrogance (due to his immortality), so he wasn't fighting at full power. Plus, he was able to easily tank Vegito's Final Kamehameha. You could see the stress in Vegito's face, as he tried to quickly put an end to Fused Zamasu, moments before his defusion.

Anyway, i think, from your list, only Jiren, Hit, Goku (with Ultra Instinct) and Kefla would be able to give Black a tough fight.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It could also be that Merged Zamasu's fusion wasn't a perfect fusion like Vegito or Kefla, so its boost wasn't too high.

For example, Kibitoshin ended up being, well......... yeah.

Maybe Zamasu didn't add as much to the fusion as Goku Black did because he was a Kaioshin. He made the fusion permanent and added its half-immortality, but the initial state might not have been all that strong. After all, according to one of the latest interviews, Toriyama did intend for Merged Zamasu to only be a threat to two SSBs, but Toyotaro thought that Vegito should be thrown in to up the tension.

We see in the anime that Merged Zamasu's immortal soul seems to be the source of his evergrowing power, at least from what I've seen.

[Hugo Boss]

After all, according to one of the latest interviews, Toriyama did intend for Merged Zamasu to only be a threat to two SSBs, but Toyotaro thought that Vegito should be thrown in to up the tension.

Actually, a threat to one SSB and two would be able to handle him.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Did he? I can't remember what was said now. I remember Black implying that he was stronger than them though.

They are probably referring to this line:



In addition, there is Black's statement in Ep. 64 about his power having surpassed even his own comprehension.

You'd think the same would be true for Merged Zamasu as well and that was also hinted at.

Fused Zamasu did have unlimited power and potential (he did - in fact - become the Universe itself and was spreading throughout timelines), but the reason he was overpowered by Vegeta, Trunks and later on Goku is because he wasn't even trying to win. He inherited Future Zamasu's cockiness and arrogance (due to his immortality), so he wasn't fighting at full power. Plus, he was able to easily tank Vegito's Final Kamehameha. You could see the stress in Vegito's face, as he tried to quickly put an end to Fused Zamasu, moments before his defusion.

Anyway, i think, from your list, only Jiren, Hit, Goku (with Ultra Instinct) and Kefla would be able to give Black a tough fight.

Take out Goku UI and Jiren when you say "give him a tough fight". Black, or even merged zamasu wouldnt be able to touch them (UI goku has dodge hax, jiren has jiren hax).

[ZombieVito]

Initial Merged Zamasu isn't that strong because of Future Zamasu.

Remember that when Shin and Kibito fused they were still weaker than SS2 Vegeta.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Initial Merged Zamasu isn't that strong because of Future Zamasu.

Remember that when Shin and Kibito fused they were still weaker than SS2 Vegeta.

And Elder Kaioshin also supposedly didn't grow much in power and potentially got WEAKER after fusing with that witch millions of years ago.

Potara Fusions involving the intended recipients, Kaioshin themselves, seem to not be as useful as it is for mortals. Some morenarrative fuel to the Future Trunks Arc's themes of mortals and gods, I guess.

[ZombieVito]

Initial Merged Zamasu isn't that strong because of Future Zamasu.

Remember that when Shin and Kibito fused they were still weaker than SS2 Vegeta.

And Elder Kaioshin also supposedly didn't grow much in power and potentially got WEAKER after fusing with that witch millions of years ago.

Potara Fusions involving the intended recipients, Kaioshin themselves, seem to not be as useful as it is for mortals. Some morenarrative fuel to the Future Trunks Arc's themes of mortals and gods, I guess.

It's not about Kaioshin.

It seems that the closer the fighters are the stronger the boost is.

[Bullza]

But Super Saiyan Rose Black was enormously more powerful than Super Saiyan Berserk Kale.

Zamasu was about Super Saiyan 2 level so should have been similar to Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla.

So Merged Zamasu should have been far more powerful than Kefla. Yet he wasn't that far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku whereas Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was about Ultra Instinct Goku level.

That's not including the power up he had afterward which he seemed to get from another source. The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu probably was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla. The Halo Merged Zamasu seemed way too weak.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But Super Saiyan Rose Black was enormously more powerful than Super Saiyan Berserk Kale.

Zamasu was about Super Saiyan 2 level so should have been similar to Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla.

So Merged Zamasu should have been far more powerful than Kefla. Yet he wasn't that far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku whereas Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was about Ultra Instinct Goku level.

That's not including the power up he had afterward which he seemed to get from another source. The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu probably was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla. The Halo Merged Zamasu seemed way too weak.

And that's the intended strength of Merged Zamasu from Toriyama, to boot.

All I can think of is that the fusion was imperfect thanks to the half-immortal soul and the fact that Future Zamasu and Goku Black aren't as compatible as two close-knit Saiyans would be.

[ZombieVito]

But Super Saiyan Rose Black was enormously more powerful than Super Saiyan Berserk Kale.

Zamasu was about Super Saiyan 2 level so should have been similar to Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla.

So Merged Zamasu should have been far more powerful than Kefla. Yet he wasn't that far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku whereas Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was about Ultra Instinct Goku level.

That's not including the power up he had afterward which he seemed to get from another source. The Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu probably was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla. The Halo Merged Zamasu seemed way too weak.

Just because Goku broke the halo doesn't mean Zamasu is weak.

Was SS2 Kefla confirmed to be GoD tier? I missed that.

We also know that since Kefla appeared in base that the girls powered down so the Portara boost should be similar to Vegetto's since they are closer in power in base.

[Bullza]

Just because Goku broke the halo doesn't mean Zamasu is weak.

It would spend on the Kaioken level that Goku used but it was a combination of things that made him seem weak.

At first they said he had Black and Zamasu's power added together and then expanded to no end, which seems to fit with them being so much stronger but then Vegeta and Trunks overpowered him, Goku overpowered him, Goku started kicking him around and then dropped him so hard his Halo shattered and Zamasu called himself a weak God and then summoned up more power.

Was SS2 Kefla confirmed to be GoD tier? I missed that.

She was said to be stronger than Goku's earlier level (most likely Ultra Instinct Goku).

I don't think she's God of Destruction level though. I don't think Ultra Instinct Goku should be either, not even close maybe.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I wonder how strong SSGod Goku is really supposed to be, we were originally led to believe that he was superior to even Vegetto, but this is probably wrong.

A fusion of two weaker girls was able to stomp him in base, and in the manga Base Vegetto is superior to SSBlue Goku and Vegeta, so perhaps we merely overestimated the God forms and they're not nearly as good as we thought.

If Goku fused with Vegeta back in BoG they'd probably give Beerus a much better fight.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu was about Super Saiyan 2 level so should have been similar to Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla.

Future Zamasu was stronger than his present self, even Goku noted that. Future Zamasu was able to fight on-par with SSB Goku, for example. Although he was never taking any battle seriously due to his immortality. He actually enjoyed getting hit by his enemies and revelling in his own immortal body.

So Merged Zamasu should have been far more powerful than Kefla. Yet he wasn't that far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku whereas Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was about Ultra Instinct Goku level.

I have a couple of things to point out.

1) Merged Zamasu overwhelmed BOTH SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta (nearly crushing their hands). They couldn't even get near him due to the Wall of Light and the Blades of Judgement. On the other hand, Caulifla was fighting only against Goku. Let's see how the fight would've gone had she been outnumbered like Fused Zamasu was.

2) Against Super Saiyan Blue Vegito, Grotesque Fused Zamasu proved able to make the mighty fused foe fight seriously and rival even him in terms of power, possibly as an actual equal. As such, many of Fused Zamasu's attacks forced Vegito to dodge, which still caused considerable damage to the area from the sheer force of his blows. In addition to Fused Zamasu having survived without any difficulty SSB Vegito's Final Kamehameha.

Fused Zamasu had endless power and potential. Gowasu stated this. Vegeta stated that he had never seen a God let off such astonishing Light. Shin pointed out that the simple of existence of Fused Zamasu was beyond their divine understanding. The only problems that hindered Fused Zamasu were two:

1) Fused Zamasu was arrogant, he was toying around with his opponents instead of just destroying them in one swift strike. Vegeta even aknowledges this, he said that he was taking his time with them. This is because one of the fusèe, Goku Black, was a sadist and was taking pleasure in watching mortals suffer in agony, instead of giving them a swift and painless death.

2) Due to Black's body being mortal, the balance between Fused Zamasu's immortal soul and body was unstable. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks exploited this weakness to defeat him. Zamasu's immortality was greatly wounded by the Father-son Galick Gun, by Goku's Kamehameha, and lastly by Trunks' Spirit Bomb Sword-whatever. Which forced Fused Zamasu to cast aside his flawed body so that his immortal soul could merge with the fabric of existence.

In the end, when Fused Zamasu ascended to become the Universe, you saw how powerful he had grown. Tanking a combined Final Flash, Galick Gun, Kamehaeha as if it were nothing, and destroying ALL mortals on Earth in an instant. He truly had endless potential. Just like Gowasu said: when Black and Future Zamasu became one, their power didn't just merge, it expanded to no end.

Just because Goku broke the halo doesn't mean Zamasu is weak.

Zamasu wasn't taking the fight seriously, had he been fighting at full power, there's no way Goku would have won. In addition, the only reason he destroyed the Barrier of Light is because he used Kaioken on an unsuspecting Zamasu. Again, this all boils down to Zamasu being a depraved and self-absorbed prick (i adore this trait of his personality).

[Green]

Initial Merged Zamasu wasn't that impressive, he's the same as in the manga: way stronger than SSB but comparable to a better form (Mastered SSB or Kaioken). Now Light of Justice MZ is another business, considering how he performed againts Vegetto.

Kafla is just plain strong, call it lesbian boost or whatever, she's way more impressive than any other fusion we've seen. We do know that Jiren is stronger than Anime MZ, and of consequence SSB Vegetto, but I never seemed to understand whether Shin was referring to his hypothetical full power (which would make more sense) or his level when he pushed back the Genkidama.

[Guesswhoo]

Initial Merged Zamasu wasn't that impressive, he's the same as in the manga: way stronger than SSB but comparable to a better form (Mastered SSB or Kaioken). Now Light of Justice MZ is another business, considering how he performed againts Vegetto.

Kafla is just plain strong, call it lesbian boost or whatever, she's way more impressive than any other fusion we've seen. We do know that Jiren is stronger than Anime MZ, and of consequence SSB Vegetto, but I never seemed to understand whether Shin was referring to his hypothetical full power (which would make more sense) or his level when he pushed back the Genkidama.

That is just wrong. What puts Jiren's power above Vegetto ? Is it because he is stronger than Beerus ? Then what puts Beerus's power above Vegetto ? Nothing suggested that Beerus is stronger than Merged Zamasu or Vegetto, fan just got lost in headcanon as they always do.

The only known boost is the rival boost (which is still debatable) and Caulifla isn' t a rival to Kale, Kelfa needed SSJ berserk to be slightly stronger than a tired SSB Goku and she needed a sneak attack on the head to KO a tired SSBKKx ? Goku, suddenly she is stronger than Vegetto SSB as a SSJ 2 who is the potara fusion of full power SSB Goku and Vegeta ? Where is the logic in that.
Remember that the Blue form of Goku is supposedly stronger in FT arc than in the ToP arc since Goku got weaker because he didn't have a single fight in 9 month.

[ZombieVito]

Just because Goku broke the halo doesn't mean Zamasu is weak.

It would spend on the Kaioken level that Goku used but it was a combination of things that made him seem weak.

At first they said he had Black and Zamasu's power added together and then expanded to no end, which seems to fit with them being so much stronger but then Vegeta and Trunks overpowered him, Goku overpowered him, Goku started kicking him around and then dropped him so hard his Halo shattered and Zamasu called himself a weak God and then summoned up more power.

The magic of amplified attacks and Zamasu lowering his guard.

[Animelover5487]

Guys, I have figured out #17 and Gohan's battle power. As we have seen a stronger Berserk Kale is weaker than SSG Goku (and likely, SSJ3 Goku too) despite stomping SSJB Goku, who was stated to had been using more power than Super Saiyan 2. When we saw Goku vs Gohan. SSJ2 Goku was even at first with Ultimate Gohan until Gohan powered up more then Goku went straight to Blue. From this evidence I have gathered Goku was more than likely using the same surpressed SSJB against #17 and Gohan that he was using against Kale. This surpressed SSJB is in-between SSJ2 and SSJ3's power as Goku uses this surpressed SSJB to, should I say test his opponents when Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 isn't powerful enough. He doesn't use SSJ3 because it's way too straining and almost impossible to control and SSJG would be overkill.

Here's the chain:

SSJG Goku > SSJ3 Goku > Controlled Berserk Kale > Berserk Kale > SSJB Goku (Surpress) = #17 = Ultimate Gohan > SSJ2 Goku