Thoughts on Gatekeeping in the Community

[MarCas92]

So this is a topic I've mused over a long time. I wanted to focus the conversation on Dragon Ball.

It's hard for me to talk to people IRL about Dragon Ball. Usually when I meet a fellow fan it's hard for me to engage in any sort of meaningful conversation because more than likely that person is a fan of completely different elements of DB than I am. I think a lot of that has to do with living in the US, but I just can't discuss DB on any sort of enjoyable level when frankly most fans here are casual and their opinions are usually: "I prefer subs for most anime, but I can't stand Gokus Japanese voice" or "The music was so much better in Z" or "insert TFS quote here" or any sort of power level/scaling debate. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion, but I feel like that type of fan just doesn't really get Dragon Ball. That might sound pretentious and elitist and I hate saying it, but I think people like that do more harm than good to the franchise.

I used to gatekeep A LOT. But after High School I realized there really was no point. Let people enjoy what they enjoy. Dragon Ball was over, there is no way people like that will have any effect on DB or my enjoyment of it. Then the resurgence came. Yo!, BoG, RoF, Super etc.

I won't speak too much on my own personal opinions on Super's quality but in short, I find it to be VERY subpar. However, I was looking forward to its Dub especially seeing what a great job FUNI had done with Kai. Now, I'm not saying that the Dub is poorly produced, far from it. However, it's localization has me bothered. It really does go out of it's way to appeal to the western audience from the Toonami era rather than focus on being a 100% faithful adaptation. Idk about how you guys feel about that but it bugs me to no end. When I watch a dub, I want the experience to represent the original as closely as possible. I'm try-lingual (Spanish, English, Italian) so I completely understand that there is nuances to translation that can never be fully captured. But this dub doesn't really have that problem. It more so that the changes are made to appeal to what I consider to be the lowest common denominator of the fandom (elitist/hipster/weeabo comment. I know! I'm sorry! Thats just how I feel).

But it's not just the super dub. With the way DB has been engrained into the pop culture here in the west, now I feel that that section of the fandom IS actively ruining my enjoyment of this franchise. I don't get a faithful dub and the spread of misinformation about the series is getting ridiculously out of hand, especially on the Youtube/FB circuit which is where I feel most people consume news and info about the franchise. So is it best to try to gatekeep in order to help this franchise and the fandom be the best I believe it can be? or should I just keep my stupid comments in my pocket?

[KBABZ]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by gatekeep. Could you explain?

Regardless, the unfortunate fact is that due to the high exposure and popularity of the Toonami dub, those elements are part of the majority of the western Dragon Ball audience. A fair few fans object to the "new" version of Goku's character that's closer to the original, and you'd be hard-pressed to find one who appreciates the Japanese version, let alone acknowledges that it's the "original" Dragon Ball. I dunno, maybe I've mis-read things, but it feels to me like the Kanzenshuu-type crowd is very much in the minority as far as American fans go.

[Sin]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by gatekeep. Could you explain?

Regardless, the unfortunate fact is that due to the high exposure and popularity of the Toonami dub, those elements are part of the majority of the western Dragon Ball audience. A fair few fans object to the "new" version of Goku's character that's closer to the original, and you'd be hard-pressed to find one who appreciates the Japanese version, let alone acknowledges that it's the "original" Dragon Ball. I dunno, maybe I've mis-read things, but it feels to me like the Kanzenshuu-type crowd is very much in the minority as far as American fans go.

I didn't used to think this was true, I honestly thought that since Kai there weren't as many people around who are so pro-dub they can't even try to watch it in its original form. Then I joined a couple of Facebook groups and they literally share memes all day degrading people who enjoy the original broadcast voices more.

In my mind I don't know how sub vs dub is actually still a thing in 2018, it was a thing 20 years ago and it was tiresome back then.

[GamerSkull]

Personally, when it comes to those sort of things... I've always been a fan of both.

I like the dub for both Z and Kai... and the Bruce Faulconer soundtrack and sometimes watch those depending on my mood.

But I would say that the japanese version is far superior for obvious reasons. I just treat the dub as an alternative take and find that I can enjoy both by doing so.

But yes, a lot of the people I talk to outside of this forum about Dragon Ball seem to be the Toonami dub crowd and make it apparent.

[KBABZ]

I honestly thought that since Kai there weren't as many people around who are so pro-dub they can't even try to watch it in its original form.

Anecdotally I think Kai did do a lot to evangelize a more accurate take on the show for western audiences, as well as the manga itself given that it removed a lot of the filler. I can stand as a testament to that because while I've been a fan of OG DB for a long time, it wasn't until I was wanting to continue after the 23rd that I started looking into it and found Kai. When I heard about the better performances and removal of filler, I instantly watched that instead.

That would eventually lead me to here, where this site's various articles and podcast episodes would greatly inform me about a lot of the original, Japanese side of things. And that's important because that's the only side of the fandom that you can find out about what is really important stuff like all the name pun relationships, where the Tournament arc comes from, when Toriyama was thinking about ending the series in advance but then never got around to it, why Chi-Chi acts the way she does, why there's this crossword competition thing on a title page, and of course the original manga itself in its unedited, pure format (which even the anime would take creative liberties with). And I feel like a far more well-informed fan because of it.

[Dbzfan94]

Ignore the fandom then.

I personally can't stand when people pull the "not a true fan" card if they dont adore the sub.

[VegettoEX]

I don't want to keep the original Japanese version to myself.

I want everyone to have it. I want everyone to experience it in as best a representation of it that can possibly be made.

I want to talk about it with everyone. I want to share my experiences with everyone. I want to compare my thoughts with everyone.

I want to learn new things about it. I want to teach people new things about it.

It's not mine. It's ours.

The more we love it, and the more we share and explain that love, the more that love can and will grow.

[precita]

Being 20-30+ years old and talking about Dragonball in public is going to get you weird looks no matter what. You'll get either, "You still watch cartoons?" or "Dragonball isn't a real anime, watch GOOD anime" or "Yeah I remember that show Goku went Super Saiyan and fought Freeza and what was the name of that robot guy with the green skin?"

I don't talk about any shows I watch in public.

[GamerSkull]

Being 20-30+ years old and talking about Dragonball in public is going to get you weird looks no matter what. You'll get either, "You still watch cartoons?" or "Dragonball isn't a real anime, watch GOOD anime" or "Yeah I remember that show Goku went Super Saiyan and fought Freeza and what was the name of that robot guy with the green skin?"

I don't talk about any shows I watch in public.

Yeah, I'm actually pretty secretive when it comes to anime and manga in general.

I tend to avoid it because I've noticed people typically being condescending towards me for my interest. For example, my roommates see me as weird for enjoying that stuff at my age and are perplexed that I don't keep up with the latest rap music artists and sports instead (to the point where they will later just randomly bring it up in passing when I tell them I haven't heard a particular song). It's a bit annoying and I've slowly learned to just keep this kind of thing to myself in the end. It's par for the course though and it's probably not gonna change anytime soon.

At the end of the day, just ignoring the aspects of fans or non-fans is probably the best way to go. Enjoying what you want in the way you want it is fine.

[Polyphase Avatron]

So this is a topic I've mused over a long time. I wanted to focus the conversation on Dragon Ball.

It's hard for me to talk to people IRL about Dragon Ball. Usually when I meet a fellow fan it's hard for me to engage in any sort of meaningful conversation because more than likely that person is a fan of completely different elements of DB than I am. I think a lot of that has to do with living in the US, but I just can't discuss DB on any sort of enjoyable level when frankly most fans here are casual and their opinions are usually: "I prefer subs for most anime, but I can't stand Gokus Japanese voice" or "The music was so much better in Z" or "insert TFS quote here" or any sort of power level/scaling debate. I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion, but I feel like that type of fan just doesn't really get Dragon Ball. That might sound pretentious and elitist and I hate saying it, but I think people like that do more harm than good to the franchise.

But Goku's Japanese voice is terrible! Who wants him to sound like an old lady! And everyone knows the Falconer tracks were the best music the franchise ever had! And you're probably one of those people who thinks Broly is stronger than Cell, but it's obvious that Cell is stronger, despite the fact that power levels are bullshit!

[Forte224]

I totally get you, man. I'm not in total agreement, but I get you. Super's dub is bothersome to me, but it isn't ruining my enjoyment. I've fallen in love with the Japanese version of the show (after growing up on the Ocean/Funi dubs) to the point that when I see pictures of the characters, all I hear are their Japanese voices in my head. That said, I was looking forward to rewatching Super in English as I love Kai, but yeah they really aren't sticking with the accuracy anymore. It's better than their late 90s Z changes for sure, but it still goes too far in my opinion. It's like they prioritize going for the memes like Vegeta calling Bulma "babe" which is something Chris previously only would've done at conventions and whatnot as a mocking of Vegeta or something.

I also don't like all the misinformation that gets spread around. This fanbase really takes it to the next level when it comes to casual fans that act like hardcore fans. I literally had a friend of mine try to convince me that these days the Funi cast is trying to emulate the Ocean cast. I was shocked. The TFS hype train bothers me, too, but not to an extreme degree. That said, it doesn't actively ruin my enjoyment at all. And also, it's getting better! I've seen so many people (whether it's people I know personally or several comments on the internet) come to acknowledge the Japanese cast's performances, including Nozawa as the Goku family.

The point is, there's nothing you can do to change it, so just accept it and enjoy the franchise. That's one thing these more casual fans are doing more than you right now, think about that for a second.

P.S. I do wish more people were knowledgeable about Dragon Ball though, simply so I could discuss it more. I love all the conversations here, but talking it out would be so nice. Oh well, maybe someday.

[Michsi]

This gatekeeping thing is one of the worst things to come out of fandom culture. It isn't just about sub vs dub, or manga vs anime, etc, it's about elitism in general. It's all good and fine when you consider yourself above average when it comes to your love, support and general knowledge, but when you start thinking you are a superior fan because of that and pass judgment on others simply because they are not that into it as you are, then that becomes a problem. You can step in when you see a misconception that could harm the franchise spread and take over general discussion, but don't be a jerk about it. Casual fans will always make up the majority of a fandom.
Let others enjoy the dub, let others prefer the anime over the manga, let others say it's over 9000 instead of 8000 or whatever.

[Cipher]

In terms of pruning out people who don't want to know more about the series—who are set firm in their love for it as FUNimation sold it through the early 2000s—you're already in the right place for that. And increasingly, in no small part due to Kanzenshuu's influence, you're in the right place all over the internet: Reddit, Twitter, etc.

I agree with the sentiments most people have expressed in this thread: Rather than "gatekeeping," use your passion for the series to help you convey why you enjoy it to others, to see if maybe—given the right nudge, the right explanation—they might enjoy it for the same reasons you do. Discuss its whimsy, its genre-influences, its humor and sincerity, its craft, etc. That people have done that—in good faith rather than for any weird feelings of superiority (why would you not want other people to enjoy what you enjoy)—is part of the reason you'll already find so much more good company on those fronts now than you would have in, say, 2002.

[Soppa Saia People]

I don't really talk DB IRL, but when I do, I don't really talk about, "oh I only watch JPN", or "oh I prefer the manga". I'll just casual talk about it, not trying to really dig deep into it, that's what's this forum is for (for me anyway). If they do wanna talk more about it, I'm more than happy to talk about it more deeply.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Being 20-30+ years old and talking about Dragonball in public is going to get you weird looks no matter what. You'll get either, "You still watch cartoons?" or "Dragonball isn't a real anime, watch GOOD anime" or "Yeah I remember that show Goku went Super Saiyan and fought Freeza and what was the name of that robot guy with the green skin?"

I don't talk about any shows I watch in public.

Are you talking from experience or are you just assuming this is what happens? Personally I have not had anyone come up and say anything to me, so I am curious.

Anyway I'll be frank I do not get this mentality at all, I see it often, public is public who gives a shit what some random person thinks or even says you are never gonna see them again, I still watch regular cartoons and talk about I dunno Scooby Doo freely if someone happens to catch conversation and it weirds them then that is purely 100% their problem. And if your around the same people like at work or school then it is better for them to know the true you?

[Michsi]

Being 20-30+ years old and talking about Dragonball in public is going to get you weird looks no matter what. You'll get either, "You still watch cartoons?" or "Dragonball isn't a real anime, watch GOOD anime" or "Yeah I remember that show Goku went Super Saiyan and fought Freeza and what was the name of that robot guy with the green skin?"

I don't talk about any shows I watch in public.

Are you talking from experience or are you just assuming this is what happens? Personally I have not had anyone come up and say anything to me, so I am curious.

Anyway I'll be frank I do not get this mentality at all, I see it often, public is public who gives a shit what some random person thinks or even says you are never gonna see them again, I still watch regular cartoons and talk about I dunno Scooby Doo freely if someone happens to catch conversation and it weirds them then that is purely 100% their problem. And if your around the same people like at work or school then it is better for them to know the true you?

This is the old attitude fans used to encounter when talking about non-age appropriate shows, and by not age-appropriate I mean: "what? you're still into cartoons? C'mon, we're not 12 anymore." Ironically, I came across this attitude a lot more frequently in school rather than as an adult. Adults nowadays seem to be a lot more chill about being a geek, probably because of the gaming industry and the superhero genre has made being into stuff like this a lot more socially acceptable. I feel like anything DB related also gets a pass because of nostalgia.

[floofychan333]

I would talk DB more but I don't really have friends that are into it in the same way I am. I have one friend I can talk about anything including DB with but we usually end up having the same DB conversation when we talk about it. When I find out somebody I know likes DB it's kind of hard for me to bring it up for some reason, likely because I have Asperger's and I have trouble in some elements of social interaction. I don't really care if someone's a Faulconer-loving casual fan as long as we're able to talk, and frankly I just enjoy talking DB regardless of what anyone else thinks. Dragon Ball is a force that brings us together and we shouldn't be divided by something as stupid as slightly different opinions on something we both enjoy.

[KBABZ]

likely because I have Asperger's and I have trouble in some elements of social interaction.

-fistbump-

[8bitdee]

To be honest, it took me this many years to join Kanzenshuu forums due to previous experiences of elitism from this community (in other platforms) because I say Krillin and Saiyan, instead of Kuririn and Saiya-jin. I feel like that has died down a bit and finally felt comfortable to sign up.

[KBABZ]

To be honest, it took me this many years to join Kanzenshuu forums due to previous experiences of elitism from this community (in other platforms) because I say Krillin and Saiyan, instead of Kuririn and Saiya-jin. I feel like that has died down a bit and finally felt comfortable to sign up.

I throw dub terms around like it's 1999 so I don't think you have anything to worry about!