Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

[Artorias]

I don’t get what you are saying! His body can endure more of the blast now than it could before. It was still a massive amount of energy he channeled but he doesn’t have to completely blow himself up to knock Toppo off the stage. That’s all there is to it.

And yeah Toppo has god of destruction power but Vegeta also got a major boost not so long ago.


Yeah I guess they didn’t have to call back to the Buu saga but they wanted to show he was using the same attack. Personally I didn’t mind that because I love the scene and I liked the call back. Although I could have did without the “is he dead” scenes (although I already knew he wasnt).

My dude, you're ignoring the fact that the blast ITSELF also is stronger if his body is stronger. In order to knock an opponent like Toppo out, you need a MUCH stronger blast than the little shit he did in the Buu saga. So, since the blast is stronger, it should do the same damage to his body that it did in the Buu saga. His body IS more resilient, but the attack is also stronger. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

First of all I am not a dude and I am not ignoring anything.


Even if the blast is stronger his body can endure more. We don’t know how strong the blast actually was & we don’t exactly know how much his body can endure. So logically however strong the blast was it was strong enough to knock Toppo off the stage (he didn’t need to completely blow him up) but it wasn’t strong enough to kill him. It’s pretty simple and doesn’t need to be this complicated.

You're just speaking in headcanon at this point, so this is as far as we go I guess. I can't argue against headcanon. It's actually a lot simpler than you're making it out to be: It's bad, lazy writing that exists only to be a cheap callback with no payoff or resonance.

[sintzu]

Vegeta Has done his part, please don't whine when he goes out.

You won't hear me complaining, not now or in future arcs.

[Artorias]

Vegeta Has done his part, please don't whine when he goes out.

You won't hear me complaining, not now or in future arcs.

Then you are the kind of Vegeta fan I like.

[precita]

My dude, you're ignoring the fact that the blast ITSELF also is stronger if his body is stronger. In order to knock an opponent like Toppo out, you need a MUCH stronger blast than the little shit he did in the Buu saga. So, since the blast is stronger, it should do the same damage to his body that it did in the Buu saga. His body IS more resilient, but the attack is also stronger. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

First of all I am not a dude and I am not ignoring anything.


Even if the blast is stronger his body can endure more. We don’t know how strong the blast actually was & we don’t exactly know how much his body can endure. So logically however strong the blast was it was strong enough to knock Toppo off the stage (he didn’t need to completely blow him up) but it wasn’t strong enough to kill him. It’s pretty simple and doesn’t need to be this complicated.

You're just speaking in headcanon at this point, so this is as far as we go I guess. I can't argue against headcanon. It's actually a lot simpler than you're making it out to be: It's bad, lazy writing that exists only to be a cheap callback with no payoff or resonance.

But your argument is the same then, your headcanon is all of Vegeta's energy should be depleted because he's much stronger now, whereas ours (and the shows writers too for that matter because this is what they wrote with Vegeta standing afterward) is that since he's Blue now he can detonate a bigger blast but still retain enough energy for himself to still move around.

As you said, it's a lot simpler than you're making it out to be.

[Kinokima]

My dude, you're ignoring the fact that the blast ITSELF also is stronger if his body is stronger. In order to knock an opponent like Toppo out, you need a MUCH stronger blast than the little shit he did in the Buu saga. So, since the blast is stronger, it should do the same damage to his body that it did in the Buu saga. His body IS more resilient, but the attack is also stronger. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

First of all I am not a dude and I am not ignoring anything.


Even if the blast is stronger his body can endure more. We don’t know how strong the blast actually was & we don’t exactly know how much his body can endure. So logically however strong the blast was it was strong enough to knock Toppo off the stage (he didn’t need to completely blow him up) but it wasn’t strong enough to kill him. It’s pretty simple and doesn’t need to be this complicated.

You're just speaking in headcanon at this point, so this is as far as we go I guess. I can't argue against headcanon. It's actually a lot simpler than you're making it out to be: It's bad, lazy writing that exists only to have a cheap callback with no payoff or resonance.

No they explained it in the episode that he was strong enough to survive it. I don’t see how my explanation is any more of a “head canon” than yours. That’s just an easy way to dismiss what I said.

As for bad writing well that’s your opinion!

[Artorias]

First of all I am not a dude and I am not ignoring anything.


Even if the blast is stronger his body can endure more. We don’t know how strong the blast actually was & we don’t exactly know how much his body can endure. So logically however strong the blast was it was strong enough to knock Toppo off the stage (he didn’t need to completely blow him up) but it wasn’t strong enough to kill him. It’s pretty simple and doesn’t need to be this complicated.

You're just speaking in headcanon at this point, so this is as far as we go I guess. I can't argue against headcanon. It's actually a lot simpler than you're making it out to be: It's bad, lazy writing that exists only to be a cheap callback with no payoff or resonance.

But your argument is the same then, your headcanon is all of Vegeta's energy should be depleted because he's much stronger now, whereas ours (and the shows writers too for that matter because this is what they wrote with Vegeta standing afterward) is that since he's Blue now he can detonate a bigger blast but still retain enough energy for himself to still move around.

As you said, it's a lot simpler than you're making it out to be.

I don't think my point is relying on headcanon, because I'm using the shows own logic. Power levels increase in proportion to the defensive capabilities of the person. That's how it always worked.

I usually hate these sorts of power level discussions for this reason, where each party just thinks the other is pulling headcanon bs, but I think this is actually important to focus on this time around.

First of all I am not a dude and I am not ignoring anything.


Even if the blast is stronger his body can endure more. We don’t know how strong the blast actually was & we don’t exactly know how much his body can endure. So logically however strong the blast was it was strong enough to knock Toppo off the stage (he didn’t need to completely blow him up) but it wasn’t strong enough to kill him. It’s pretty simple and doesn’t need to be this complicated.

You're just speaking in headcanon at this point, so this is as far as we go I guess. I can't argue against headcanon. It's actually a lot simpler than you're making it out to be: It's bad, lazy writing that exists only to have a cheap callback with no payoff or resonance.

No they explained it in the episode that he was strong enough to survive it. I don’t see how my explanation is any more of a “head canon” than yours. That’s just an easy way to dismiss what I said.

As for bad writing well that’s your opinion!

But just because they SAY he's strong enough doesn't mean it makes any sense. Goku could transform into Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct 3 Great Ape, and it still wouldn't make any sense, regardless of how the writers tried to desperately justify it.

And well... yea, I'm not trying to say you have to agree with me that it's bad writing. I'm not so arrogant to claim what I say is fact. It's implied that everything we say here in terms of quality of the episode is opinion.

[Forte224]

Vegeta Has done his part, please don't whine when he goes out.

You won't hear me complaining, not now or in future arcs.

Same. All I've wanted is a good Vegeta win for eons now. Pummeling Goku Black was pretty close, but ultimately amounted to nothing. But this, this actually made a difference.

[sintzu]

I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?

UI Maybe? Or Vegetto ?

[Hawk9211]

That was awful. One of the weakest episodes in the series. So many bad decisions I can't even count.

Why is Toppo spamming Hakai spheres even though it supposedly takes a while to charge them? And why is he using them to blow up some rubble when his normal attacks should do that just fine? Why did #17 think that trapping Toppo under some rubble was an effective strategy when even the weakest fighters in the tournament could blow up the arena? I appreciate them trying to make #17 out to be some kind of tactician but that was a dumb strategy. And yet again with the rocks, if base Freeza (somehow) managed to trap Toppo, why did he waste his time throwing rocks and blasting him instead of just throwing him out of the arena like he did on Namek with Goku? Why is Jiren calling Goku and Vegeta "impudent bastards"? I want to say it feels out-of-character, after the way he keeps praising them both, but Jiren is just such a piece of boring cardboard that I can't even make that assertion. They claim that splitting up Goku and Vegeta is bad because then U11 would have the upperhand... how, exactly? If they split up Goku and Vegeta, then #17 and Freeza will fight Jiren alongside with Goku. U7 has the numerical advantage, how would splitting the fighters up be to THEIR detriment and not to U11's?

Hakai was just wasted completely. I won't dwell on the fact that any character touching Toppo should be destroyed (due to his Hakai aura), because Toppo obviously doesn't want to be DQ'd so he probably "turns it off" when attacking physically or when he's being attacked, but the fact that the Hakai balls can be destroyed by punches and Ki attacks is just stupid. Why bother going through the trouble of introducing this different kind of energy if it's no different from everything else? This problem already applied to last episode with Freeza surviving the Hakai sphere but it just gets amped up to absurdity in this one. "I'll give you an attack too powerful to destroy" is up there with "I'm too fast for your Time-Skip now" and "My power surpasses my own understanding." I shouldn't have to explain why Vegeta getting a power boost thinking of his family and friends is a bad thing. It was bad when he first transformed, it's bad now. Dragon Ball doesn't do power-ups like that and, when it does, they come from rage and/or amount to nothing.

The decision to use his self-destruction move was stupid. He did it against Boo because he was losing and, even if he was stronger, he'd have to blow him up so he wouldn't be able to regenerate. Here, he was winning and all he had to do was throw Toppo out of the arena. Why sacrifice your Ki and health over a fight that you had the upper-hand in? And the scene itself was terrible. You don't defeat a major antagonist with a rehash of a previous moment. That's not memorable, that's not new, that's not exciting. That's stupidly trying to piggyback on the old series' name and status without actually having the balls to go through and kill the character off like Z did. Let's throw a bit of character regression by switching Goku's name in his speech to Cabba's. Furthermore, the excuse they used was just incredibly stupid. He survived because he's stronger now than he was back in the Boo arc? Uh... his fucking attack is stronger now, too! Or are they trying to imply that Vegeta just eliminated Toppo with an attack that couldn't even kill Majin Boo? And, of course, Toppo amounted to nothing after his display last episode. You thought he was going to be defeated by some strategy after they stressed how he must have a weakness in his perfect defense and he needs to charge his attacks. But nope, he just gets overpowered.

The stamina thing is getting out of hand. If Goku wasn't enough, Freeza is back up this episode after getting absolutely destroyed in the last one (and his presence didn't serve any purpose, either. He's out of sight after his attack and isn't even present in the NEP). Vegeta, too, used all of his power, only to get back to full power next episode. I also think this needs to be stated, the episode was filled with an excessive amount of padding. 2 minutes at the start showing us the end of the previous episode plus 2 minutes of a flashback of Majin Vegeta's sacrifice. What's the point?

There were some things I appreciated, but they were plagued with problems also. I liked #17 being treated as a tactician as I said, but I've already highlighted the problems in his strategy. I like Jiren belittling Toppo, because I feel that one who holds justice at such a high level would have no respect for someone like Toppo who chose to cast it aside, but without the knowledge we have on his character from the manga, it feels contradictory with the way he's been portrayed so far and even out-of-character (as well as his little smirk at the end). I did like him one-shotting Goku though, since that's what he should be capable of doing and what he should have done all along. Thematically, I like the idea of Vegeta, who takes a more selfless pride on who he is and who he's surrounded by, defeating someone who chose to cast away his ideals for the sake of power, but, again, the way it was executed was awful.

I don't usually rant like this, but this was beyond terrible, it even surpasses episode 12. I didn't think the ToP could be this bad before, but it just keeps proving me wrong. I fear for the finale.

^^^^
You and me have quite similar thoughts on this arc.

[Chuquita]

Now that the precedent for "Shirtless Vegeta leads to him fusing with Goku" has been made in the previous arc I can't not suspect that Vegetto (or Gogeta) will turn up before this arc is over.

[sintzu]

Vegeta Has done his part, please don't whine when he goes out.

You won't hear me complaining, not now or in future arcs.

Same. All I've wanted is a good Vegeta win for eons now. Pummeling Goku Black was pretty close, but ultimately amounted to nothing. But this, this actually made a difference.

I'm happy as long as he gets good screen time, something super has given him and more.

At this point his fans have nothing to complain about.

[Sandubadear]

Maybe I’m just not remembering something, but I thought the gods of destruction were bheing erased with their universes when they lost? I see Beerus and the god from the Pride Troopers universe, but I keep seeing a third one who’s a little grey guy wearing yellow. Am I missing something?

It's the gods of the universes that aren't in the tournament.

[Kinokima]

But just because they SAY he's strong enough doesn't mean it makes any sense. Goku could transform into Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct 3 Great Ape, and it still wouldn't make any sense, regardless of how the writers tried to desperately justify it.

And well... yea, I'm not trying to say you have to agree with me that it's bad writing. I'm not so arrogant to claim what I say is fact. It's implied that everything we say here in terms of quality of the episode is opinion.

It makes sense to me. He didn’t need to kill Toppo just knock him off the stage so the blast doesn’t need to be at his full power. It still may be stronger than when he fought Buu because he is indeed stronger but however strong it was Vegeta was resilient enough to withstand it. There is logic to it.

Obviously we are not going to agree on this and I guess that’s fine. At this point I know I am not going to convince you nor you me.

[Tian]

I knew it! Toppo's power up was useless after all. Mah boi Blue Eyes White Vegeta stole the show with his White Light- I mean, his Ultimate Sacrifice thing.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Damn this episode was great. Easily in my top 3 Vegeta moments, next to him becoming Super Saiyan and beating 19 and his sacrifice against Buu. Toppo also proved to be one of my favorite characters coming from this arc.

[Kinokima]

You won't hear me complaining, not now or in future arcs.

Same. All I've wanted is a good Vegeta win for eons now. Pummeling Goku Black was pretty close, but ultimately amounted to nothing. But this, this actually made a difference.

I'm happy as long as he gets good screen time, something super has given him and more.

At this point his fans have nothing to complain about.

I am beyond happy too but why do people even need to say Vegeta fans better not complain. Can I just enjoy the moment without it being turned into something negative? (oh Vegeta fans will probably just complain when he is eliminated).


And yeah while there were some moments I was unhappy with (Vegeta not giving his energy to Goku, the pacifier lol) I’ll forever be grateful for how Super treated Vegeta. They gave him tons of great character moments throughout the series and finally a truly epic win.

[Asura]

I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?

What about the dialogue between Vegeta and Toppo especially after Toppo mocked Vegeta's saiyan promise? I thought that was awesome.
And the fighting, storyboard, Vegeta's final explosion vs Toppo's hakai in full power? It had pretty good voice acting screams and it was really epic.

All of that is meaningless though and the execution was terrible. These two characters don't really have any chemistry to bounce off of one another, and we already had a speech with Jiren.

The fighting was laughably bad in this episode. Just constant ki blasts, definitely not something to praise. Vegeta's final explosion was completely uncalled for and a very, very weak version of the Majin Buu speech. There was no reason for him to even do that, and it completely wasted Toppo's potential and his might that he showed just last episode.

[Freeza9000]

I'm a fan of dragon ball and I'm a fan of goku black as a charecter. i loved the goku black arc but thats about it. the TOP arc was a dissaster from start to finish. this is the truth. this show is an emberessment to the legacy of dragon ball now

I take it you're referring to DBGT?

no I'm talking about Dragon Ball GT most of it was trash

There, I fixed it for ya.

[precita]

I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?

What about the dialogue between Vegeta and Toppo especially after Toppo mocked Vegeta's saiyan promise? I thought that was awesome.
And the fighting, storyboard, Vegeta's final explosion vs Toppo's hakai in full power? It had pretty good voice acting screams and it was really epic.

All of that is meaningless though and the execution was terrible. These two characters don't really have any chemistry to bounce off of one another, and we already had a speech with Jiren.

The fighting was laughably bad in this episode. Just constant ki blasts, definitely not something to praise. Vegeta's final explosion was completely uncalled for and a very, very weak version of the Majin Buu speech. There was no reason for him to even do that, and it completely wasted Toppo's potential and his might that he showed just last episode.

It's not, Vegeta's speech is just as good because he told Toppo he would not cast everything he loved aside to win like he did. It's a great character arc, while it loses its impact because the Buu saga did the same thing, but it was on point for Vegeta in this tournament.

Toppo cast aside his justice memes to become devilman.

[nato25]

I guess one of the few good things I can say about this episode is it gives us shirtless Vegeta?

What about the dialogue between Vegeta and Toppo especially after Toppo mocked Vegeta's saiyan promise? I thought that was awesome.
And the fighting, storyboard, Vegeta's final explosion vs Toppo's hakai in full power? It had pretty good voice acting screams and it was really epic.

All of that is meaningless though and the execution was terrible. These two characters don't really have any chemistry to bounce off of one another, and we already had a speech with Jiren.

The fighting was laughably bad in this episode. Just constant ki blasts, definitely not something to praise. Vegeta's final explosion was completely uncalled for and a very, very weak version of the Majin Buu speech. There was no reason for him to even do that, and it completely wasted Toppo's potential and his might that he showed just last episode.

"Meaningless... What do you know of meaningless huh!" jokes aside, i didnt mind the speech but his line about how toppo had a sudden turn throwing away his justice was pretty awesome and on point.

In regards to Vegeta's explosion attack, why is this an issue for most people. Wouldn't you say its the same situation as how everyone can survive the mafuba now?