Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

I really do not understand why Vegeta is being so underestimated

Vegeta not only overcame Hakaishin Toppo, he DOMINATED Toppo with relative ease and managed to destroy Hakai energy without any problem.
Not even Toppo's final attack was enough to disintegrate all Vegeta's energy.

Basically, Vegeta easily defeated a guy standing on the same level as a Hakaishin. So we expect to put Vegeta at least one level above Toppo and at the level of the Hakaishins we know.

Kefla SSJ2 is not in this level, Goku SSB KK x20 also not

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say this is more of a case of Vegeta's past rage boosts, albeit not predicated on rage but "determination".

As in, Vegeta's power didn't skyrocket and stay that way, he just gained an immense amount of resolve that pushed him to fight past his normal limits, which was enough to take Toppo off-guard and prevent him from fully defending himself despite his power advantage.

The ACTUAL power-scaling comes from Vegeta's Final Explosion attack. This attack is noted for its ability to do damage to Majin Buu back when Vegeta was inferior to him, and it takes away from his life energy, like the Mafuba and Shin Kikoho, also attacks noted for their ability to hit above the user's power level.

Vegeta has gotten strong enough to survive using this attack, and it seems that he was able to boost its limit-breaking power through sheer willpower and determination to uphold who he is in the face of Hakaishin Toppo, whom had thrown everything away for more power.

[Bullza]

I don't care what anyone says. 17 is definitely blue level.

He probably is but not at the level of current Super Saiyan Blue Goku or Golden Frieza. For one thing he was losing against Base Toppo who Goku was meant to be equal to. Also it was Super Saiyan Blue Goku that was able to stand and get them out of the black hole while Android 17 was still on the ground.

He might be low/mid Blue level though. I kinda doubt he'd be much lower than that.

Also, is anyone else bothered that the saiyins seemingly have infinite stamina? Goku went UI TWICE (and goes to zero stamina) but is still running around with Kaioken x20. Vegeta's is confirmed to be out of KI after the final explosion yet he is using blue again in the NEP

It is pretty confusing and I don't really like how it's been portrayed where they seemingly regain their stamina by fighting more but I suppose from an in universe perspective, Goku has only been running around with the Kaioen x20 for like 5 minutes. Maybe they'll explain Vegeta.

[TysonWine]

I don't care what anyone says. 17 is definitely blue level. He outperformed Golden Freeza and put up a much better fight against Toppo. And what is up with Vegeta being able to touch Toppo in his Hikai aura?

Also, is anyone else bothered that the saiyins seemingly have infinite stamina? Goku went UI TWICE (and goes to zero stamina) but is still running around with Kaioken x20. Vegeta's is confirmed to be out of KI after the final explosion yet he is using blue again in the NEP

How did 17 outperform Frieza? He survived longer due to running away. Frieza survived a Hakai blast and could still fight afterwards. Not to mention, he looked no worse for wear in Episode 126. 17 was brought to his knees by the Justice Flash. Neither of them were able to damage Toppo, but a weakened Final Form Frieza was able to completely paralyze Toppo for quite some time. That right there is more than what 17 could do.

[SuperDragoon]

Responding to TheSaiyanGod:

I have already responded to a very similar post on reddit so I'm not going to repeat myself but TL;DR

1. SSJ1 Kefla almost certainly fought a fatigued Kaioken x20 SSB Goku and was taking minimal damage
2. The Spirit Bomb comparison makes no sense unless it's about strength.
3. SSJ2 Kefla called a fatigued UI Goku's punches weak. Keep in mind this UI Goku is still above the Spirit Bomb for obvious reasons.
4. Kefla at her max was a huge threat to UI Goku who was arguably GoD tier.

On Toppo, he was a new GoD and clearly a weak one. BSSB Vegeta is around as strong as Kaioken x20 Goku without his rage boost he had against Toppo. He is likely above SSJ1 Kefla but has NO business being above SSJ2 Kefla.

I believe you are underestimating her to a huge extent as do several other people.

[Bullza]

I really have no idea what to make of the scaling anymore.

If Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta is clearly stronger than GoD Toppo does that mean he is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito who is maybe stronger than Beerus? Or are those two characters still stronger and Toppo isn't quite as powerful as Beerus?

Or is Vegeta now stronger than Beerus but not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who in the anime could be vastly stronger than a GoD but then that would make Merged Zamasu probably as strong as a GoD too but that wouldn't really make much sense.

Is Vegeta now stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku? That seems unlikely as well. So is he also weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?

I have no idea how these three pairs compare to each other

- Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and God of Destruction Toppo.

- Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

- Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I really have no idea what to make of the scaling anymore.

If Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta is clearly stronger than GoD Toppo does that mean he is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito who is maybe stronger than Beerus? Or are those two characters still stronger and Toppo isn't quite as powerful as Beerus?

Or is Vegeta now stronger than Beerus but not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who in the anime could be vastly stronger than a GoD but then that would make Merged Zamasu probably as strong as a GoD too but that wouldn't really make much sense.

Is Vegeta now stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku? That seems unlikely as well. So is he also weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?

I have no idea how these three pairs compare to each other

- Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and God of Destruction Toppo.

- Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

- Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

I'd say don't compare strength directly.

Vegeta hasn't showcased a clear power increase, merely an increase in determination and ferocity, so his blows were sharper and heavier and his energy expenditure was more focused and controlled. At least, that's what I've been getting.

He surpassed by pushing his fighting ability past its limits once again in order to pressure even the much stronger Hakaishin Toppo before ultimately putting out a Final Explosion beyond its normal threshold, surviving only by virtue of how powerful he had already become.

[Hugo Boss]

I'd say this is more of a case of Vegeta's past rage boosts, albeit not predicated on rage but "determination".

As in, Vegeta's power didn't skyrocket and stay that way, he just gained an immense amount of resolve that pushed him to fight past his normal limits, which was enough to take Toppo off-guard and prevent him from fully defending himself despite his power advantage.

The ACTUAL power-scaling comes from Vegeta's Final Explosion attack. This attack is noted for its ability to do damage to Majin Buu back when Vegeta was inferior to him, and it takes away from his life energy, like the Mafuba and Shin Kikoho, also attacks noted for their ability to hit above the user's power level.

Vegeta has gotten strong enough to survive using this attack, and it seems that he was able to boost its limit-breaking power through sheer willpower and determination to uphold who he is in the face of Hakaishin Toppo, whom had thrown everything away for more power.

That’s exactly what I thought. Everyone expected Toppo would beat Vegeta, including Jiren.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Responding to TheSaiyanGod:

I have already responded to a very similar post on reddit so I'm not going to repeat myself but TL;DR

1. SSJ1 Kefla almost certainly fought a fatigued Kaioken x20 SSB Goku and was taking minimal damage
2. The Spirit Bomb comparison makes no sense unless it's about strength.
3. SSJ2 Kefla called a fatigued UI Goku's punches weak. Keep in mind this UI Goku is still above the Spirit Bomb for obvious reasons.
4. Kefla at her max was a huge threat to UI Goku who was arguably GoD tier.

On Toppo, he was a new GoD and clearly a weak one. BSSB Vegeta is around as strong as Kaioken x20 Goku without his rage boost he had against Toppo. He is likely above SSJ1 Kefla but has NO business being above SSJ2 Kefla.

I believe you are underestimating her to a huge extent as do several other people.

Nothing indicates that Goku used SSB KK x20 against Kefla.

Goku could not bear to use Blue, how would he be able to use the Kaioken x20? Does not make sense.
Even Beerus said that he had to end the fight quickly because his body could not stand it.

In fact, a user made a post talking about the power of Kefla, explaining the translations, I'll leave the link

viewtopic.php?p=1454458#p1454458

So, the comparison between Kefla and Genki Dama does not have to be related to power.

Goku's attacks were weak because he had not mastered the offensive part of the UI, Whis says so.
But Kefla could not even compete with Goku in terms of power. She could not even defend her attacks.

Kefla's latest attack was desperate, a combination of rage, all his power and a sharp attack (laser), so he was able to threaten Goku. But during the EP she did not do that

I really have no idea what to make of the scaling anymore.

If Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta is clearly stronger than GoD Toppo does that mean he is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito who is maybe stronger than Beerus? Or are those two characters still stronger and Toppo isn't quite as powerful as Beerus?

Or is Vegeta now stronger than Beerus but not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who in the anime could be vastly stronger than a GoD but then that would make Merged Zamasu probably as strong as a GoD too but that wouldn't really make much sense.

Is Vegeta now stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku? That seems unlikely as well. So is he also weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?

I have no idea how these three pairs compare to each other

- Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and God of Destruction Toppo.

- Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

- Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

I'd say don't compare strength directly.

Vegeta hasn't showcased a clear power increase, merely an increase in determination and ferocity, so his blows were sharper and heavier and his energy expenditure was more focused and controlled. At least, that's what I've been getting.

He surpassed by pushing his fighting ability past its limits once again in order to pressure even the much stronger Hakaishin Toppo before ultimately putting out a Final Explosion beyond its normal threshold, surviving only by virtue of how powerful he had already become.

No, Vegeta did not receive a rage boost or pride boost as happened on EP 122. Nobody said that.

But it appears that he did receive a power up, perhaps because of his determination.
At the beginning of the fight he was being defeated, but after that he topped Toppo easily and his maximum power attack overcame Hakai's power.
The point is he certainly got stronger.

The episode title also indicates that Vegeta got stronger and beat Toppo.

So I'd say he really is above Toppo

I really have no idea what to make of the scaling anymore.

If Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta is clearly stronger than GoD Toppo does that mean he is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito who is maybe stronger than Beerus? Or are those two characters still stronger and Toppo isn't quite as powerful as Beerus?

Or is Vegeta now stronger than Beerus but not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who in the anime could be vastly stronger than a GoD but then that would make Merged Zamasu probably as strong as a GoD too but that wouldn't really make much sense.

Is Vegeta now stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku? That seems unlikely as well. So is he also weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla?

I have no idea how these three pairs compare to each other

- Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and God of Destruction Toppo.

- Ultra Instinct Goku and Super Saiyan 2 Kefla

- Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and Merged Zamasu.

No, Vegetto SSB is probably above Beerus, so consequently he is above Vegeta.

Vermoud said that Toppo is equated with a Hakaishin.
Toppo also possesses a power exclusive to a Hakaishin, and Vermoud himself calls Toppo de Hakaishin. So I would say that it really is on the level of one.

Vegeta has surpassed this level, so he is probably above the Goku UI of EP 110. After all, UI of EP 110 just closed the power gap between him and a strongly restrained Jiren.
I do not think Toppo is inferior to the contained Jiren of EP 110.

[Bullza]

If current Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue from before then wouldn't he have had to have grown hundreds of times stronger?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If current Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue from before then wouldn't he have had to have grown hundreds of times stronger?

That depends.

We know he grew AT LEAST 20 times stronger when he broke SSB's limits to bring out Radiant Blue (my personal name for the form).

Of course, I'm also of the belief that Vegeta didn't increase his "overall" power and instead sharpened how focused his attacks were, thus allowing him to hit above his figurative weight class, much like what Ultra Instinct does when one can utilize this power offensively. We even see that Vegeta's Radiant Blue aura envelops his fists as they dissipate Toppo's barely-charged Hakai blasts, and Vegeta's Final Explosion struggles against Toppo's fully charged ball of Hakai Energy, which indicates to me that he merely pushed his attacks beyond their limits.

To summarize, I don't think Vegeta's power went up as a whole, merely how limit-breaking he could use his power thanks to his determination and focus on what makes him who he is.

[wolflonnie]

My take:

- Angels
- Jiren (FP)
- Blue Vegetto
- Stronger GoDs (Beerus, etc.) / UI Goku
- Corrupted Merged Zamasu / Mid tier GoDs (Champa, etc.)
- Royal Blue Vegeta / KKx20 Blue Goku
- Weaker GoDs (Toppo, etc.)
- KKx10 Blue Goku
- SSJ2 Kefla
- Aniraza / Merged Zamasu
- SSJ Kefla / KK any range Blue Goku / Blue Vegeta / Toppo
- Blue Goku / Golden Frieza / Hit
- Dyspo
- Gohan / 17

[Brettjr25]

My take:

- Angels
- Jiren (FP)
- Blue Vegetto
- Stronger GoDs (Beerus, etc.) / UI Goku
- Corrupted Merged Zamasu / Mid tier GoDs (Champa, etc.)
- Royal Blue Vegeta / KKx20 Blue Goku
- Weaker GoDs (Toppo, etc.)
- KKx10 Blue Goku
- SSJ2 Kefla
- Aniraza / Merged Zamasu
- SSJ Kefla / KK any range Blue Goku / Blue Vegeta / Toppo
- Blue Goku / Golden Frieza / Hit
- Dyspo
- Gohan / 17

Good list but why does ssb goku need kaioken to be on the same level as blue Vegeta? And unfortunately I think Gohan is a lot weaker than 17.

[Kenneth La Torre]

My take:

- Angels
- Jiren (FP)
- Blue Vegetto
- Stronger GoDs (Beerus, etc.) / UI Goku
- Corrupted Merged Zamasu / Mid tier GoDs (Champa, etc.)
- Royal Blue Vegeta / KKx20 Blue Goku
- Weaker GoDs (Toppo, etc.)
- KKx10 Blue Goku
- SSJ2 Kefla
- Aniraza / Merged Zamasu
- SSJ Kefla / KK any range Blue Goku / Blue Vegeta / Toppo
- Blue Goku / Golden Frieza / Hit
- Dyspo
- Gohan / 17

Good list but why does ssb goku need kaioken to be on the same level as blue Vegeta? And unfortunately I think Gohan is a lot weaker than 17.

I don’t think he has vegeta blue as strong as kaioken Blue Goku. I think he means that they are in the same tier, not necessarily as strong.

[TheSaiyanGod]

My take:

- Angels
- Jiren (FP)
- Blue Vegetto
- Stronger GoDs (Beerus, etc.) / UI Goku
- Corrupted Merged Zamasu / Mid tier GoDs (Champa, etc.)
- Royal Blue Vegeta / KKx20 Blue Goku
- Weaker GoDs (Toppo, etc.)
- KKx10 Blue Goku
- SSJ2 Kefla
- Aniraza / Merged Zamasu
- SSJ Kefla / KK any range Blue Goku / Blue Vegeta / Toppo
- Blue Goku / Golden Frieza / Hit
- Dyspo
- Gohan / 17

Why does Goku SSB KK x20 have the same level as Royal Blue Vegeta? At the beginning of the fight, Vegeta was being defeated but later gained a power up and surpassed his current level and Hakaishin Toppo.
Then, the SSB KK x20 was also surpassed

And why is Toppo weaker than Merged Zamasu, considering that Vermoud himself said that he equaled the power of a Hakaishin?
Merged Zamasu has never proven to be as strong as any Hakaishin.

We also have no basis to say that Toppo is low GoD tier

[Kenneth La Torre]

I think is best to put every god of destruction together in the same tier, including toppo, due to the fact that there isn’t any evidence to put one above the other (we don’t know who is above who). I think it’s better that way.

[Miracles]

Again, for ones blow to do more damage, they don't necessarily need to be due to a massive boost in raw strength, refining ones techniques, how ones attacks, progressing oneself doesn't necessarily require a massive raise in raw powerlevel, the refinement and improvement of ones techniques can lead to similar results, and thats what I think was happening with Hit.

Hits power wasn't shown to be greater than Goku's when he put him on the floor, because despite that happening, Goku was still confident that he could adapt to Hits time-skip(something he believed he could do without raising his powerlevel) and bring the fight back to where it was previously, with Goku wearing down Hit. Goku only powers up when Hit unveils his 0.5 second time-skip, which Hit describes as beyond Goku's reach. Its this that prompts Goku to use the Kaio-ken times 10, which is a level he describes as being far ahead, or beyond the reach of his time-skip.'

Also, small tidbit, yes, Hit when he used his time-skip at 0.1 seconds was doing damage to Goku, however, by anticipating Hits time-skip and countering his attacks, as well as the fact that Hit was physically weaker than Goku, Hit was slowly being worn down(Its kind of the opposite of how Goku as a Super Saiyan was being worn down by Hit in the manga).

Everything you are stating is non existent. Hit's strength increase was stated to be the only reason to have done damage to Goku. "Thinking" it was due to "refined tech" is just fanfic.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Again, for ones blow to do more damage, they don't necessarily need to be due to a massive boost in raw strength, refining ones techniques, how ones attacks, progressing oneself doesn't necessarily require a massive raise in raw powerlevel, the refinement and improvement of ones techniques can lead to similar results, and thats what I think was happening with Hit.

Hits power wasn't shown to be greater than Goku's when he put him on the floor, because despite that happening, Goku was still confident that he could adapt to Hits time-skip(something he believed he could do without raising his powerlevel) and bring the fight back to where it was previously, with Goku wearing down Hit. Goku only powers up when Hit unveils his 0.5 second time-skip, which Hit describes as beyond Goku's reach. Its this that prompts Goku to use the Kaio-ken times 10, which is a level he describes as being far ahead, or beyond the reach of his time-skip.'

Also, small tidbit, yes, Hit when he used his time-skip at 0.1 seconds was doing damage to Goku, however, by anticipating Hits time-skip and countering his attacks, as well as the fact that Hit was physically weaker than Goku, Hit was slowly being worn down(Its kind of the opposite of how Goku as a Super Saiyan was being worn down by Hit in the manga).

Everything you are stating is non existent. Hit's strength increase was stated to be the only reason to have done damage to Goku. "Thinking" it was due to "refined tech" is just fanfic.

Okay, so why bring up the Time-Skip in the show at all if it's not the reason Hit did so well? He hasn't stated anything that wasn't already mentioned in the series itself. Same with Dyspo's speed.

What's the point of these specific increases being emphasized if raw strength is all they needed? There is no point, because then everything devolves into mindless uncreative power-scaling where everything is stagnant and never subject to change; bigger numbers can never be trumped by lower numbers, Senzu Beans no longer heal wounds, bullets can never possibly hurt Krillin, Goku, etc.

If skill and technique don't matter, then there's no reason the anime should've even brought them up. But they DID, so they DO matter. And guess what? In those instances, power was never brought up, so it didn't matter in those instances.

[Miracles]

Okay, so why bring up the Time-Skip in the show at all if it's not the reason Hit did so well? He hasn't stated anything that wasn't already mentioned in the series itself. Same with Dyspo's speed.

What's the point of these specific increases being emphasized if raw strength is all they needed? There is no point, because then everything devolves into mindless uncreative power-scaling where everything is stagnant and never subject to change; bigger numbers can never be trumped by lower numbers, Senzu Beans no longer heal wounds, bullets can never possibly hurt Krillin, Goku, etc.

If skill and technique don't matter, then there's no reason the anime should've even brought them up. But they DID, so they DO matter. And guess what? In those instances, power was never brought up, so it didn't matter in those instances.

Time skip is PART of Hit's overall power that increased as well after the power up. Time skip means nothing if Hit's power level wasn't on his opponents level.

[MajinVegetaPD]

I think is best to put every god of destruction together in the same tier, including toppo, due to the fact that there isn’t any evidence to put one above the other (we don’t know who is above who). I think it’s better that way.

That would make sense somewhat, but I think the general feeling is that certain GoDs are weaker, such as Sidra for example. Hell, if I recall correctly, it was even published by Toei (I think) that Sidra was a weak GoD when they were promoting the tournament of power initially.

Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
Top Tier GoDs (4 Universes who did not participate, UI Beerus possibly)
Middle Tier GoDs
Jiren
UI Goku/Bluer Vegeta (yeah, same Tier....UI Goku has not shown to be stronger otherwise)
Low Tier GoDs (Toppo, Sidra)
SSB Goku x20
Dyspo
17/Golden Freeza/Hit
Gohan

Not including fused characters as they are one trick ponies and can pretty much scale as high as the plot demands them to.