But we didn't get a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.MajinVegetaPD wrote:Again, what people didn't expect or didn't want was a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.precita wrote:What on earth did people expect for Vegeta at this point? People are angry that Jiren beat him up? I mean the whole concept is so utterly ridiculous I don't see what the hell people are complaining about.
Are these people for real?
"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Kanassa wrote:But we didn't get a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.MajinVegetaPD wrote:Again, what people didn't expect or didn't want was a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.precita wrote:What on earth did people expect for Vegeta at this point? People are angry that Jiren beat him up? I mean the whole concept is so utterly ridiculous I don't see what the hell people are complaining about.
Are these people for real?
??????
Final Explosion - Check
Family/Friends flashbacks - Check
Spewing on and on about saiyan pride - Check
A merciless beating that served no purpose - Check
At this point, they might as well close out the show with another spirit bomb.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Vegeta didn't get a family/friends flashback, Vegeta talks about his pride all the damn in Dragon Ball, and by the time he was getting beatdown by Jiren he was already the most accomplished fighter in the entire Tournament Of Power, whereas in the Majin Boo arc he achieved nothing other getting his butt kicked and making the plot more needlessly complicated.MajinVegetaPD wrote:Kanassa wrote:But we didn't get a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.MajinVegetaPD wrote:
Again, what people didn't expect or didn't want was a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.
??????
Final Explosion - Check
Family/Friends flashbacks - Check
Spewing on and on about saiyan pride - Check
A merciless beating that served no purpose - Check
At this point, they might as well close out the show with another spirit bomb.
If you want to compare arcs, that's fine. But please have a better understanding of their contexts.
Spoiler:
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Yes, he used a technique. So, does Goku using the spirit bomb make the Frieza and Buu Saga Saiyan Rehashes? Does using Super Saiyan make every saga after Namek and Frieza Rehash?MajinVegetaPD wrote:Kanassa wrote:But we didn't get a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.MajinVegetaPD wrote:
Again, what people didn't expect or didn't want was a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.
??????
Final Explosion - Check
And not used in the same way, as well as that being quite an arbitrary and general point to draw from as a 'rehash'.Family/Friends flashbacks - Check
Yes, that was something exclusive to the Kid Buu fight. It's not like Vegeta talking about his pride is one of the most common things that the character of Vegeta does. /sSpewing on and on about saiyan pride - Check
When did that happen in the Buu Saga?A merciless beating that served no purpose - Check
How did this serve no purpose? it furthered Vegeta as a character.
On that note: Even if everything in this list was right, it still would still be a piss poor list of reasoning to cry 'rehash' ecause it's ignoring everything surrounding and connecting these points and focus on very general small aspects.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Are these official??
[spoiler][/spoiler]
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Power levels are not just big numbers:
by Doctor.
Spoiler:
by Doctor.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I'm actually quite curious how the UI mastered form would of looked if it was the same way as UI Omen but the colors reversed. We know from V Jump it's essentially all Silver hair, but what if it was all Silver Hair with black highlights? UI Omen is black hair with silver highlights, so now I'm curious how he'd look with silver hair/black highlights. Anyone think they can make a quick PS image ;p?
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Not to mention Vegeta getting his ass kicked happens in every single arc, so not sure why people only seems to remember Kid Buu. And Vegeta didn't even have a family flashback in the Buu Saga.Kanassa wrote:Yes, he used a technique. So, does Goku using the spirit bomb make the Frieza and Buu Saga Saiyan Rehashes? Does using Super Saiyan make every saga after Namek and Frieza Rehash?MajinVegetaPD wrote:Kanassa wrote: But we didn't get a rehash of the Kid Buu saga.
??????
Final Explosion - Check
And not used in the same way, as well as that being quite an arbitrary and general point to draw from as a 'rehash'.Family/Friends flashbacks - Check
Yes, that was something exclusive to the Kid Buu fight. It's not like Vegeta talking about his pride is one of the most common things that the character of Vegeta does. /sSpewing on and on about saiyan pride - Check
When did that happen in the Buu Saga?A merciless beating that served no purpose - Check
How did this serve no purpose? it furthered Vegeta as a character.
On that note: Even if everything in this list was right, it still would still be a piss poor list of reasoning to cry 'rehash' ecause it's ignoring everything surrounding and connecting these points and focus on very general small aspects.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Remember when Vegeta got his ass kicked by Zarbon and Recoome? Or by Android 18? Oh wait, how is that any different than now?
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Honestly, this a big moment for Vegeta. One of the few times "He gets his ass kicked" is not accompanied by "because he fucked everything up"HeroR wrote: Not to mention Vegeta getting his ass kicked happens in every single arc, so not sure why people only seems to remember Kid Buu. And Vegeta didn't even have a family flashback in the Buu Saga.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
Kanassa wrote:- FoolsGil, Out of Context, 2017FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Seriously. Almost all of Vegeta's ass beatings were well deserved in Z like Golden Freeza vs. God Toppo.Kanassa wrote:Honestly, this a big moment for Vegeta. One of the few times "He gets his ass kicked" is not accompanied by "because he fucked everything up"HeroR wrote: Not to mention Vegeta getting his ass kicked happens in every single arc, so not sure why people only seems to remember Kid Buu. And Vegeta didn't even have a family flashback in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Says who? The one, who wants to avoid talking about a series that had Vegeta do the hardest training so far for 6 months straight to catch up to a level of power that was gifted to Goku by a ritual?Totamo wrote:Oh this is going to be fun by the way we are not counting Super.
So he defeated villains until he ran into somebody who was stronger and made him eat dirt, so he had to improve. Dragon Ball in a nutshell.He was hitting and running on namek the entire time until Zarbon kicked his ass and even after Ginyu Force showed up.
Congratulations you've found a timespan that had him not train or fight for more than a day and it was because he was dead. But that's beside the point because he was incapacitated, I just didn't state the "injured"-rule sufficiently general. The point is, that he is almost always training or fighting, so him improving and staying competitive makes sense. There is no reason in writing for him to fall behind.In the Buu saga, he was dead for a good bit and that was 2 days.
Yes, he defeated guys who were weaker than him (like Goku does), then gets defeated by somebody who was stronger than him (like Goku does) and improves. His improvements make sense and he earns them through pain (you know, like Goku does, when he gets a Zenkai or more recently Ultra Instinct).But most importantly, lets talk Vegeta's so called eating dirt even though he goes all out. He killed cui, dordoria, beat Zarbon before he transformed, then he kills zarbon, he kills guido, then he gets beaten by recome, gets a powerup and defeats Jeice, then beats Ginyu in Goku's body then he like everyone else gets beaten by Freeza.
The way most transformations (like SS2, SS3 & SSB Goku) and techniques are earned offscreen. Except we did see, how he got it because they included a flashback. In the post that sparked our discussion you followed up that offscreen-part with "probably with much less effort". But we did see, onscreen, what lead to him getting it: Training to the point of exhaustion and injury under increased gravity, continuing the training (still injured), training in grave danger (we don't know, whether he exactly ate dirt on that asteroid, but he was close to biting the dust and we saw him bloodied and exhausted on the ground, so he might as well have eaten some dirt before he started to get up). So what exactly is your argument here? Did he earn it any less than Goku? Certainly not less than most characters apart from him and Goku.In The cell saga, He gets super saiyan offscreen
So he got a power-up and was able to defeat one of the lesser villains of the arc.then he kills 19
fighting and eating the dirthe attacks 18 and gets defeated
training, fighting, eating dirthe then goes in and trains, defeats semi perfect, then gets crushed by perfect Cell
Yeah, he was the character that trained the most in that arc and got the most defeats in the arc, so they established him as the third-strongest of the Z-Warriors. I don't exactly see anything here, that was not earned.He then trains and is one of the only 2 people to stand up to the Cell jrs.
As does Goku with his opponent. They consciously established that Babidis lesser minions were no threat to Goku and Vegeta, who, unlike some other characters, stayed in active training.In the buu saga, he defeats Pui Pui with ease
Because he wants to sacrifice himself against Buu alone, which is what he does next.defeats Goku by cheaptshotting
Not exactly eating dirt, but biting the dust again.and blows himself up against Buu
So, back to eating dirt and almost biting the dust, to gain the honor of buying time for Goku. That's not a complaint, but I don't see, how that supports your point of Vegeta getting stuff without earning it.he then returns and gets defeated by super buu and is the one buying time for Goku to charge the spirit bomb.
Originally I had written up some responses about this and the next lines, about how this is pretty consistent with the way that others (mostly Goku, I guess) are usually looking for fights or enabling villains when they could have stopped them from transforming, stopped them from escaping or prevented the whole series of events, to begin with, but then I realized that you rightfully acknowledged Goku's stupidity and, more importantly, this is totally beside the point, which is, that you stated that Vegeta gets his improvements with less effort and dirt eating.Now when laid out like this, Vegeta is not eating dirt, he is eating karma because all of this was his own fault.
Goku got his fair share of Zenkais as well (as stated by Krillin, when he learned about the concept) and Vegeta is, as I said, always fighting or training and if he isn't he is unable to do so. He was training before the Buu arc, he stayed in shape just like Goku and unlike Gohan, that was the entire point of the fights in Babidis ship.Not to mention he only trained for one saga where he got all this power, he abuses his biology on namek and sells his soul in the Buu saga. He only trained in the Cell saga but hit a plateau because he refuse to train intelligently.
He got more Zenkai boosts than that. Also, true, Goku trained in the Saiyan arc before Vegeta got introduced and while Vegeta was traveling. He trained on his way to Namek, while Vegeta was either incapacitated, traveling or already fighting. Goku trained during the Cell arc, as did Vegeta. Goku trained before the Buu Arc, as did Vegeta (IIRC the first shot of him in the Buu Arc is him leaving the Gravity Chamber. And of course (because I see no reason to exclude Super here) Vegeta is training or fighting or recovering from a fight not just in every arc but in pretty much every time period, that's longer than a day, in Super as well (he takes a day off, because Trunks earned one father-son-day by hitting him, he takes off for the birth of Bulla and that's pretty much it).Goku trained in every saga and on namek when he got his one zenkai boost
The plan to fix any major problem in Dragon Ball is being stronger than the big bad and Vegeta always tries to do that, sometimes that plan fails. Similar to how Goku's plans often fail.Vegeta really did exist in Z to make things worse at times and unlike Goku, he never had a plan to fix it.
As does Vegeta. He eats dirt vs. Zarbon, he eats dirt vs. Recoome, he bites the dust vs. Freeza, he eats dirt vs. #18 after attacking her, he eats dirt vs. Perfect Cell, he bites the dust vs. Fat Buu.Goku's plans are stupid too but at least he took the hit for it when it didn't work.
I like Vegeta, so I guess I'm a Vegeta fan, yet I wonder what I do to make you wish they'd make him irrelevant. I don't complain, I'm mostly happy about the way he is portrayed. The only thing I'm complaining about is the idea, that he earns his stuff less than other characters, because he doesn't. He got SSJ offscreen, but he trained himself to near-death more than one time to get it and he didn't earn it any less than Goku he did similar gravity training and got his SSJ finally triggered by Krillins death, he didn't take part in the SSJ bargain sale, during the Buu Saga. He had to train until the Buu Arc to get SSJ2. He didn't get to god-level onscreen like Goku (with the help of a ritual and then absorbing that power), but offscreen after 6 months of harsh training with Whis. He didn't get SSJ3 at all (never had Kai-mentoring or otherworld training), and he trained more than Goku in Super. He ate way more dirt then Goku, and they both died twice. You argue that he deserved it, but so did Goku most of the time. Goku enabled villains pretty much whenever he had the chance to do so and paid for it as well. They both grow through their challenges and losses and they are both doing nothing else than fighting, training and recovering after serious injury.Vegeta's redemption arc is arguably the best in shonen and i love the character which is why I'm grateful Super even has him around and even dedicates episodes to him, but his fans make me wish they did go GT route and not kept him in the show at all especially when compared to everyone else bar Goku, he gets the most screentime and moments.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I guess some of those Vegeta fans were twitter expected Vegeta to unlock UI due to being foreshadowed in the manga?
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
But why? The manga is different from the anime, I thought Vegeta would unlock UI because he was trying some time after he saw Goku with it
Power levels are not just big numbers:
by Doctor.
Spoiler:
by Doctor.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
People often tries to mixed the anime and the manga, despite their being two different takes on the same story. Like people tried to say Manga Jiren was the same as Anime Jiren until it became really obvious that wasn't the case.jeffbr92 wrote:But why? The manga is different from the anime, I thought Vegeta would unlock UI because he was trying some time after he saw Goku with it
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
I assume that they made Anime Jiren an asshole because:
1. It was the easiest route given the schedule
2. To make U7/Goku likeable
3. Series director and producers are still stuck in the 80s.
1. It was the easiest route given the schedule
2. To make U7/Goku likeable
3. Series director and producers are still stuck in the 80s.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
What does the 80s have to do with anything? Do you think complex heroes and villains only became a thing recently? And the schedule has nothing to do with how they chose to portray a character and they really weren't trying to make U7 or Goku more likable since Goku being an asshole is more played up in the anime.perucho1990 wrote:I assume that they made Anime Jiren an asshole because:
1. It was the easiest route given the schedule
2. To make U7/Goku likeable
3. Series director and producers are still stuck in the 80s.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
HeroR wrote:
What does the 80s have to do with anything? Do you think complex heroes and villains only became a thing recently? And the schedule has nothing to do with how they chose to portray a character and they really weren't trying to make U7 or Goku more likable since Goku being an asshole is more played up in the anime.
More like they became popular in the last 15 years, thats why we got a lot of them in popular series like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Hero Academia, Attack on Titan, even the likes of Rick and Morty.
It was clear the crew tried to make U7 likeable from the moment we saw Ganos act obnoxious.
Jiren is supposed to be a hero yet they make him a douche to the point he will get buried to oblivion in episode 130, and that will be his memorable moment.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
More popular doesn’t mean they didn’t exist in the 80s so the whole “stuck in the 80s” makes no sense. And MHA don’t really have complex villains. I mean, the main evil force is called the League of Evil and AFO was a very basic villain. And a lot of the villains in AOT are just assholes with very little justifiable reasons.perucho1990 wrote:
More like they became popular in the last 15 years, thats why we got a lot of them in popular series like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Hero Academia, Attack on Titan, even the likes of Rick and Morty.
It was clear the crew tried to make U7 likeable from the moment we saw Ganos act obnoxious.
Jiren is supposed to be a hero yet they make him a douche to the point he will get buried to oblivion in episode 130, and that will be his memorable moment.
Not really since as I said, Goku was presented as an asshole and U7 as a whole isn’t that sympathized.
Being a hero doesn’t mean you’re not an asshole. Case in point; Iron Man, most versions of Batman, Punisher, I can go on. Not all heroes are Superman. Go read the trope Good is Not Nice.
Last edited by HeroR on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Don’t speak on what’s going to happen in the future very lightly. We don’t know how they’ll make jiren look in 130.perucho1990 wrote:HeroR wrote:
What does the 80s have to do with anything? Do you think complex heroes and villains only became a thing recently? And the schedule has nothing to do with how they chose to portray a character and they really weren't trying to make U7 or Goku more likable since Goku being an asshole is more played up in the anime.
More like they became popular in the last 15 years, thats why we got a lot of them in popular series like Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Hero Academia, Attack on Titan, even the likes of Rick and Morty.
It was clear the crew tried to make U7 likeable from the moment we saw Ganos act obnoxious.
Jiren is supposed to be a hero yet they make him a douche to the point he will get buried to oblivion in episode 130, and that will be his memorable moment.
And as far as him being a douche, that’s anime only. The manga jiren is actually very likeable. So the same argument you are making here, won’t apply to the final battle in the manga once goku goes mastere UI.
Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Official Announcement & Discussion Thread
Vegeta will never get UI. He gave up on it and got his own power or form albeit inferior. Whis even said it would be incredibly difficult for Vegeta to master because it goes against how he naturally. He's also not the fighting prodigy that Son Goku is. I don't get why fans were expecting him to get UI out of nowhere when it would have taken the shine off of Goku and his story.jeffbr92 wrote:But why? The manga is different from the anime, I thought Vegeta would unlock UI because he was trying some time after he saw Goku with it