Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

I’m kind of loosing interest in power scaling to be honest. Beerus, jiren, vegito, MUI goku... it’s all the same when it comes to being in the same general realm of power. No one here comes to a conclusion even when statements are made.

I’m just glad jiren won’t be irrelavent, and maybe, just maybe... if dragon ball returns, they can properly reintroduce jiren as a good character, and not a poorly written one... probably. Just wishful thinking

[Miracles]

Based on a summery and Beerus is known for being prideful. And Belmound stated that mockingly to Vegeta.

Belmound wasn't mocking cause he was worried and wanted Jiren to finish off Goku before he mastered UI.
Also that summary is usually accurate by Herms and Beerus isn't just boasting cause something has to contradict his statement for it to be so.

When exactly did Beerus state this? As of episode 129 Beerus has NOT compared MUI Goku with himself in terms of power in any way, shape or form.

[spoiler]Check the latest spoilers [/spoiler]

Herms' translation are right. Doesn't mean the summery is. And Belmound was mocking Vegeta about 'mastering UI and beating Jiren'.

That's right, Belmound laughed at Vegeta assuming the possibility of Goku mastering UI and surpassing Jiren as ridiculous!
Belmound didn't believe Goku would master UI which would surpass Jiren. Read the context before that statement. The summary is correct until otherwise.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Why are people debating goku mastering UI and beating jiren? Aren’t we all aware that MUI goku won’t beat jiren?

[shadd21]

I swear this is almost Broly levels of wanking you guys are giving to Beerus, why is it so hard for to believe the Jiren stronger than him?

[Kenneth La Torre]

I swear this is almost Broly levels of wanking you guys are giving to Beerus, why is it so hard for to believe the Jiren stronger than him?

They just want the episode to confirm it. So I get their reason. Tho if MUI goku can’t beat jiren, then based on spoilers, neither will beerus

[HeroR]

Why are people debating goku mastering UI and beating jiren? Aren’t we all aware that MUI goku won’t beat jiren?

We just know that Goku won't win, not the how. Ever heard the saying, 'I won, but I didn't beat them'. That's basically what happened to Tien.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Why are people debating goku mastering UI and beating jiren? Aren’t we all aware that MUI goku won’t beat jiren?

We just know that Goku won't win, not the how. Ever heard the saying, 'I won, but I didn't beat them'. That's basically what happened to Tien.

Cool, I’m glad you remember dragon ball, now this is dragon ball super.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I would kill to see a mini series where goku and vegeta joined the time patrollers for a short time. It would be Badass seeing goku teaming up with jiren and vegeta teaming up with toppo, taking out bad guys. Lol I have a wild imagination.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Meant to say pride troopers, not time patrollers

[SayianBeyondGod]

That's as clear cut as it gets.

Again you're taking the word "rival" out of context in which Dragon Ball uses. SSB was said to rival the hakaishins hence the term rival not being a literal match in raw power. Gohan was also said to rival SSB Goku despite him not matching in power. Whis only talks about power if you ignore the rest of the context in which he refers Kefla ki as a stimulus to trigger Goku form rather than literally matching the genki power. Despite this I've already brought up a lot of feats prior contradicting Kefla being above even SSBKK Goku. Feats > Statements

[HeroR]

Why are people debating goku mastering UI and beating jiren? Aren’t we all aware that MUI goku won’t beat jiren?

We just know that Goku won't win, not the how. Ever heard the saying, 'I won, but I didn't beat them'. That's basically what happened to Tien.

Cool, I’m glad you remember dragon ball, now this is dragon ball super.

Same author, what's your point?

[ZombieVito]

That's as clear cut as it gets.

Again you're taking the word "rival" out of context in which Dragon Ball uses. SSB was said to rival the hakaishins hence the term rival not being a literal match in raw power. Gohan was also said to rival SSB Goku despite him not matching in power. Whis only talks about power if you ignore the rest of the context in which he refers Kefla ki as a stimulus to trigger Goku form rather than literally matching the genki power. Despite this I've already brought up a lot of feats prior contradicting Kefla being above even SSBKK Goku. Feats > Statements

How can Goku be stimulated with something way weaker than the Genkidama?

I think you're just in denial on how strong she is.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In fact, Whis said Goku needs more extreme stimuli to reach UI as his body starts to acclimate.

[wolflonnie]

So let's try to make a tier list, after everything we know.

[spoiler]- Zenos
- Zeno guards
- Grand Priest
- Angels
- Jiren (FP)
- MUI Goku
- SSB Vegetto (@ Black saga) / Beerus / Strongest hakaishins
- Merged Zamasu LoJ / Omen Goku / Mid tier hakaishins
- SSBE Vegeta / SSBKKx20 Goku / weakest hakaishins
- SSJ2 Kefla
- Aniraza
- SSBKKx10 Goku
- Merged Zamasu (initial) / SSJ Kefla
- SSB Vegeta / SSB Goku / TG Frieza / Base Toppo / Hit
- Black Rosé
- Dyspo / Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / SSR Trunks
- SSG Goku / Base Kefla
- Berserk Kale / U6 Namekkians[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

I'm talking about 122. Vegeta says he's never encountered an energy as strong as Jiren's, and also says Jiren isn't using the same power and speed he used against Goku.

Therefore Goku > Suppressed Jiren > MZ.

Yeah that's fine. He would be stronger Merged Zamasu easily, even at his lowest level. Beerus has never used his full power in the show though and Vegeta hasn't seen it so it can still fit for him to be weaker than Beerus at that point.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'm talking about 122. Vegeta says he's never encountered an energy as strong as Jiren's, and also says Jiren isn't using the same power and speed he used against Goku.

Therefore Goku > Suppressed Jiren > MZ.

Yeah that's fine. He would be stronger Merged Zamasu easily, even at his lowest level. Beerus has never used his full power in the show though and Vegeta hasn't seen it so it can still fit for him to be weaker than Beerus at that point.

The point I'm making is that MZ was able to keep up with Vegetto, so there's no way Vegetto can be anywhere close to Beerus.

[Bullza]

The point I'm making is that MZ was able to keep up with Vegetto, so there's no way Vegetto can be anywhere close to Beerus.

Oh, well yeah. After all it wasn't even said in the anime at all and even in the manga Shin could just be wrong.

It's all sorta strange because Merged Zamasu should ideally be more powerful than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla but he was done in by Trunks after absorbing the power of a smallish Spirit Bomb whereas just Super Saiyan Kefla had power that rivalled a stronger one.

But then Super Saiyan 2 Kefla shouldn't be nearly as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito and he wasn't ridiculously above Merged Zamasu.

[SayianBeyondGod]

How can Goku be stimulated with something way weaker than the Genkidama?

I think you're just in denial on how strong she is.

Because Whis is comparing Kefla with the Genkidama in a role/ability. The word stimulus implies a functional reaction hence reinforcing to what I said in the former. Kefla doesn't need to match the Genkidama power to put fatigue Goku in low state where he has no Ki left, like when bathing in the Genkidama. She was already able to put Goku out of stamina when attacking a vulnerable Goku whom couldn't maintain his kaioken due to stamina issues. But at no point she powered up to kick the SSBKK Goku that was overpowering her most of the fight.

I'm not in denial on how strong she is, if anything you are. I already given you a wide context of various points contradicting Kefla being near Genkidama level at SSJ, which you neglected more than once already and with a pattern of repeating the same points. You only brought up fewer points that I already addressed and objectively refuted. Here I'll make it easier for you to the summary of points that I've already brought up, which have yet to address:

- Kefla was claiming Goku was a worthy opponent
- Goku telling her to pump things up in which she responded by powering up
- Roshio claiming she's beyond her limits
- Whis claiming her Saiyan blood is what's only driving her
- Goku was overpowering her throughout the fight with SSBKK
- Goku was getting more fatigue with kaioken, which was implied by Beerus
- Narrator implies the overall battle was the trigger not a kick
- Picoolo later making it noteworthy to claim Kefla surpassed the same SSBKK Goku as a SSJ2
- Vegeta claiming even Jiren whom was more supressed than 110 when rivalling UI Goku was said to have the strongest Ki he felt, implying she as a SSJ2 is inferior to 110 UI Goku that absorbed the spirit bomb

Dyspo never rivalled Goku's power, only his speed. Why wouldn't he have confidence? He can turn Golden in an instant and one shot both of them. That's no proof his FF is over base tier.

Don't mind me responding to this late since I forgot about this. Dypso litterally show relevnce in power to SSG when able to physically harm him, further more it doens't make sense for Goku to go SSB if Dyspo doesn't rival at least SSG. Frieza was charging up his death beam at both Kale and Caulifa in final form, he wasn't preparing to transform at all otherwise he would've already have.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Current interviews suggest that the ending of super may indicate that toriyama could continue the story. So maybe goku losing to jiren isn’t so bad.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

[spoiler]Jiren winning might mean yet another Goku-exclusive transformation in the future lol, man that Goku dude just needs more transformations to set himself apart and get even strongerrrrr [/spoiler]