How will they fix the writing problem that Super had?

[fadeddreams5]

While i agree with the super thing,as far as toriyama goes that holds true only till the Cell saga.
In the Buu saga you could not tell how strong Piccolo he is(outside that he is weaker than the ssj2),heck before BOG(in which we learnt where base Goku stands)you could make a strong case for him being weaker than the base saiyans including the Gohan that was weaker than the cell games,the same goes for other characters like retconing Shin's strength from the tournament on the way to Babidi's ship and the famous whatever or not Gohan was ssj1 or ssj2 against Dabura.

Piccolo is weaker than the adult SSJs in the Buu saga. That's all you need to know about his power because anyone not on par with a SSJ was trash at that point. His standing is literally the same as it is by the end of the Cell Games. Dabura is on par with Perfect Cell. Even if Gohan did not go SSJ2, it does not matter because SSJ Goku gave Perfect Cell a run for his money, and Gohan clearly did not dominate Dabura in their fight. And if he was SSJ2, it's outright stated that he is much weaker than he used to be, so there's no inconsistency here either.

The Buu saga does not follow GT's rulebook, where a saiyan's base form can become stronger than a SS2. Majin Vegeta outright praises Goku after he becomes a SSJ2 by stating that he's become stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan (this is after 7 years of training). Hence, the scaling was exactly the same as the saga before it. You can indeed tell who's stronger than who.

In Super, I still don't know where Android 17 or Trunks stand. Are they SSJB level? SSJ3? Stronger than Mystic Gohan? I have no clue. Is Kale stronger than SSJB? But wasn't she getting smacked around by SSJG? Were Hit's constant improvements retconned? Does Base Goku have god powers? Was this retconned too? So are the Uni 6 saiyans (sans Kale) that much stronger than the Uni 7 saiyans or just as strong as their Buu saga selves? But wasn't SSJ3 Gotenks smacked around by Copy Vegeta, only for Base Goku to match the latter? But then Kale is able to fight Goku's SSJ2 form, so she's stronger than Gotenks?

[Doctor.]

In Super, I still don't know where Android 17 or Trunks stand. Are they SSJB level? SSJ3? Stronger than Mystic Gohan? I have no clue. Is Kale stronger than SSJB? But wasn't she getting smacked around by SSJG? Were Hit's constant improvements retconned? Does Base Goku have god powers? Was this retconned too? So are the Uni 6 saiyans (sans Kale) that much stronger than the Uni 7 saiyans or just as strong as their Buu saga selves? But wasn't SSJ3 Gotenks smacked around by Copy Vegeta, only for Base Goku to match the latter? But then Kale is able to fight Goku's SSJ2 form, so she's stronger than Gotenks?

You don't even need to go that far because the Piccolo example still works.

You have Piccolo defeating SS2 Gohan so he's stronger than him, right? Well, how strong is Gohan anyway? He seems on-par with his dad in base form (which would logically mean he's on-par in every form), but how strong is Goku? Does he still have the God power or not? Is Piccolo stronger than Boo arc SS2s or stronger than "God-enhanced" SS2s, who the fuck knows? Did he even get stronger at all? He defeats SS2 Gohan but one episode later, base Goku tanks his attack. And throughout the tournament he kept having difficulty with opponents base Gohan was dealing with. Oh, except that time ultimate Gohan (who's, y'know, SSB tier probably,) was having trouble with some Namekians, and Piccolo was the key to winning that fight. So is he around ultimate Gohan's strength? Meaning he's around SSB strength? But one of the writers said Frost is still stronger than him, and Frost is still weaker than the Super Saiyans. Hell, Frost seems to have gotten weaker (despite Hit stating he got stronger), considering he ran the fuck away from #18 and base Vegeta was enough to deal with him. So is Piccolo in fact weaker than Frost and the Super Saiyans or even the base Saiyans as a result?

[PFM18]

In Super, I still don't know where Android 17 or Trunks stand. Are they SSJB level? SSJ3? Stronger than Mystic Gohan? I have no clue. Is Kale stronger than SSJB? But wasn't she getting smacked around by SSJG? Were Hit's constant improvements retconned? Does Base Goku have god powers? Was this retconned too? So are the Uni 6 saiyans (sans Kale) that much stronger than the Uni 7 saiyans or just as strong as their Buu saga selves? But wasn't SSJ3 Gotenks smacked around by Copy Vegeta, only for Base Goku to match the latter? But then Kale is able to fight Goku's SSJ2 form, so she's stronger than Gotenks?

You don't even need to go that far because the Piccolo example still works.

You have Piccolo defeating SS2 Gohan so he's stronger than him, right? Well, how strong is Gohan anyway? He seems on-par with his dad in base form (which would logically mean he's on-par in every form), but how strong is Goku? Does he still have the God power or not? Is Piccolo stronger than Boo arc SS2s or stronger than "God-enhanced" SS2s, who the fuck knows? Did he even get stronger at all? He defeats SS2 Gohan but one episode later, base Goku tanks his attack. And throughout the tournament he kept having difficulty with opponents base Gohan was dealing with. Oh, except that time ultimate Gohan (who's, y'know, SSB tier probably,) was having trouble with some Namekians, and Piccolo was the key to winning that fight. So is he around ultimate Gohan's strength? Meaning he's around SSB strength? But one of the writers said Frost is still stronger than him, and Frost is still weaker than the Super Saiyans. Hell, Frost seems to have gotten weaker (despite Hit stating he got stronger), considering he ran the fuck away from #18 and base Vegeta was enough to deal with him. So is Piccolo in fact weaker than Frost and the Super Saiyans or even the base Saiyans as a result?

I think most of this can be rationalized by identifying the fact that Goku was obviously sparring with gohan and holding back/suppressed. So Gohan's base is not the same level as Goku's. So Piccolo can be stronger than gohan's SSJ without being stronger than Goku's SSJ or even goku's base. So no he isnt stronger than "God enhanced SSJ" and that is where the problem stems from. Hence why Goku easily tanks Piccolo's attack in base. So yes, he is stronger than Buu arc SSJ2 it appears. And then ny extension it would make sense that piccolo would be around Frost's level while Frost still being weaker than the Super Saiyans.

The only thing I have trouble explaining how Gohan could have trouble with the Namekians and Piccolo damages them. But I guess I would prefer Piccolo being useful in that moment in favor of having power scaling being consistent in that one moment.

[Doctor.]

I think most of this can be rationalized by identifying the fact that Goku was obviously sparring with gohan and holding back/suppressed. So Gohan's base is not the same level as Goku's. So Piccolo can be stronger than gohan's SSJ without being stronger than Goku's SSJ or even goku's base. So no he isnt stronger than "God enhanced SSJ" and that is where the problem stems from. Hence why Goku easily tanks Piccolo's attack in base. So yes, he is stronger than Buu arc SSJ2 it appears. And then ny extension it would make sense that piccolo would be around Frost's level while Frost still being weaker than the Super Saiyans.

The only thing I have trouble explaining how Gohan could have trouble with the Namekians and Piccolo damages them. But I guess I would prefer Piccolo being useful in that moment in favor of having power scaling being consistent in that one moment.

The problem with this "holding back" excuse is that they never tell you when Goku and Vegeta are holding back. You just have to assume for yourself because otherwise it makes no sense (either Goku got weaker or everyone else got to God level for no reason), which is why you have a lot of theories floating around to explain the huge amount of inconsistencies in the show - the "God ki in base" people, the "retcon" people, the "two bases" people. And it's also why you can never tell how one character compares to another because the only good measuring sticks we have - Goku and Vegeta - are useless because the power they're putting out against other characters in sparring matches is apparently completely arbitrary. The original series was never this vague, it always let you know how characters compared to one another. If a character was holding back, they'd state it or someone else would point it out.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Super definitely needed a script doctor or a script in general based on how disjointed most of the episodes to how shallow and situational the plots were. I want less rotating writers and someone who knows the tone of Z (or as crazy as it sounds, someone who's worked on GT or the movies) to actually come in and think of concepts on how to structure Super to feel more like Z. (Even if this a a personal issue only I have), its just something about Super only focusing on "Cool fights! Cool transformations!" that turned me off. There was no story at all to the series, no character arcs or subplots based on them nor was there any real build up to the antagonists at all (while most of Super generally lacking them). The Black arc was close to getting into format, but it missed so much of what the other Z arcs had in addition to an intimidating villain. It lacked build up, it lacked the on-screen transition of threats, the fight pacing was too quick. It lacked what made the Cell & Namek arcs so good. Super lacks expanding character stories.

Then there is the in-universe reasoning for things that absolutely sucks. Without an established power tiering and just saying characters can surpass their limits the instant they try to is where people get confused or zealous about how strong characters are or should be. The abuse of SSB was ridiculous. If its a god level, only characters of god tiers should be able to match it. Beyond that. SS1 & SS2 should be what was used. if DB had a clearer ranking system like say OPM or even Marvel's own (be it based on power or destructive potential) it would be easier to write characters within where. For whatever reason Z never really had this issue or at least as glaring as Super has it, but Super is just all over the place because they never establish how SSB even worked. The stamina drain thing and 'guard dropping" are horrible plot devices they abused off ROF. They also never established what Ki control is or what it applies to in their skill set, thus when people use that to try and justify to themselves how SSB works, we get unnecessary debates.

[PFM18]

I think most of this can be rationalized by identifying the fact that Goku was obviously sparring with gohan and holding back/suppressed. So Gohan's base is not the same level as Goku's. So Piccolo can be stronger than gohan's SSJ without being stronger than Goku's SSJ or even goku's base. So no he isnt stronger than "God enhanced SSJ" and that is where the problem stems from. Hence why Goku easily tanks Piccolo's attack in base. So yes, he is stronger than Buu arc SSJ2 it appears. And then ny extension it would make sense that piccolo would be around Frost's level while Frost still being weaker than the Super Saiyans.

The only thing I have trouble explaining how Gohan could have trouble with the Namekians and Piccolo damages them. But I guess I would prefer Piccolo being useful in that moment in favor of having power scaling being consistent in that one moment.

The problem with this "holding back" excuse is that they never tell you when Goku and Vegeta are holding back. You just have to assume for yourself because otherwise it makes no sense (either Goku got weaker or everyone else got to God level for no reason), which is why you have a lot of theories floating around to explain the huge amount of inconsistencies in the show - the "God ki in base" people, the "retcon" people, the "two bases" people. And it's also why you can never tell how one character compares to another because the only good measuring sticks we have - Goku and Vegeta - are useless because the power they're putting out against them in sparring matches is apparently completely arbitrary. The original series was never this vague, it always let you know how characters compared to one another. If a character was holding back, they'd state it or someone else would point it out.

I mean it should be clear given how strong Goku and Vegeta are at this point. Hence why they both are far heyond SSJ3 Gotenks in their base form. I guess they could be more blatant about showing this. The alternatives are to have Goku and Vegeta never spar with the weaker characters or have anybody on hand to explicitly state like "yeah Goku and Vegeta arent trying rn." Overall it doesnt seem like a glaring problem

[Doctor.]

I think most of this can be rationalized by identifying the fact that Goku was obviously sparring with gohan and holding back/suppressed. So Gohan's base is not the same level as Goku's. So Piccolo can be stronger than gohan's SSJ without being stronger than Goku's SSJ or even goku's base. So no he isnt stronger than "God enhanced SSJ" and that is where the problem stems from. Hence why Goku easily tanks Piccolo's attack in base. So yes, he is stronger than Buu arc SSJ2 it appears. And then ny extension it would make sense that piccolo would be around Frost's level while Frost still being weaker than the Super Saiyans.

The only thing I have trouble explaining how Gohan could have trouble with the Namekians and Piccolo damages them. But I guess I would prefer Piccolo being useful in that moment in favor of having power scaling being consistent in that one moment.

The problem with this "holding back" excuse is that they never tell you when Goku and Vegeta are holding back. You just have to assume for yourself because otherwise it makes no sense (either Goku got weaker or everyone else got to God level for no reason), which is why you have a lot of theories floating around to explain the huge amount of inconsistencies in the show - the "God ki in base" people, the "retcon" people, the "two bases" people. And it's also why you can never tell how one character compares to another because the only good measuring sticks we have - Goku and Vegeta - are useless because the power they're putting out against them in sparring matches is apparently completely arbitrary. The original series was never this vague, it always let you know how characters compared to one another. If a character was holding back, they'd state it or someone else would point it out.

I mean it should be clear given how strong Goku and Vegeta are at this point. Hence why they both are far heyond SSJ3 Gotenks in their base form. I guess they could be more blatant about showing this. The alternatives are to have Goku and Vegeta never spar with the weaker characters or have anybody on hand to explicitly state like "yeah Goku and Vegeta arent trying rn." Overall it doesnt seem like a glaring problem

How is it nor a problem if you can never figure out for certain how strong a character is supposed to be? Of course Vegeta and Goku are "far beyond SS3 Gotenks" but then you have Goku needing to go Super Saiyan to deal with Kuririn and needing to go Super Saiyan 3 to deal with Trunks and you're, again, left wondering how strong these characters are supposed to be. There is simply no consistency to the way these characters are portrayed in terms of strength; you're the first person I've seen who has defended the scaling in Super.

[PFM18]

The problem with this "holding back" excuse is that they never tell you when Goku and Vegeta are holding back. You just have to assume for yourself because otherwise it makes no sense (either Goku got weaker or everyone else got to God level for no reason), which is why you have a lot of theories floating around to explain the huge amount of inconsistencies in the show - the "God ki in base" people, the "retcon" people, the "two bases" people. And it's also why you can never tell how one character compares to another because the only good measuring sticks we have - Goku and Vegeta - are useless because the power they're putting out against them in sparring matches is apparently completely arbitrary. The original series was never this vague, it always let you know how characters compared to one another. If a character was holding back, they'd state it or someone else would point it out.

I mean it should be clear given how strong Goku and Vegeta are at this point. Hence why they both are far heyond SSJ3 Gotenks in their base form. I guess they could be more blatant about showing this. The alternatives are to have Goku and Vegeta never spar with the weaker characters or have anybody on hand to explicitly state like "yeah Goku and Vegeta arent trying rn." Overall it doesnt seem like a glaring problem

How is it nor a problem if you can never figure out for certain how strong a character is supposed to be? Of course Vegeta and Goku are "far beyond SS3 Gotenks" but then you have Goku needing to go Super Saiyan to deal with Kuririn and needing to go Super Saiyan 3 to deal with Trunks and you're, again, left wondering how strong these characters are supposed to be. There is simply no consistency to the way these characters are portrayed in terms of strength; you're the first person I've seen who has defended the scaling in Super.

Yeah I mean Goku went SSJB but again it was just a spectacle to make a cool scene. he was obviously holding back. Goku did have to go SSJ3 to beat Trunks which makes sense since Goku had to go SSJ2 against Zamasu and Trunks can compete with Zamasu in his SSJ2. So it would make sense that Goku would just need one form further. So yeah I mean Trunks is super strong, you can debate whether he SHOULD be that strong but he is clearly strong. There is plenty of consistency you just have to take the fight scenes with context.

[Doctor.]

Yeah I mean Goku went SSJB but again it was just a spectacle to make a cool scene. he was obviously holding back. Goku did have to go SSJ3 to beat Trunks which makes sense since Goku had to go SSJ2 against Zamasu and Trunks can compete with Zamasu. So yeah I mean Trunks is super strong, you can debate whether he SHOULD be that strong but he is clearly strong. There is plenty of consistency you just have to take the fight scenes with context.

SSB aside, Goku still had to go Super Saiyan 1 against Kuririn to avoid getting pushed out of the platform. Is Kuririn now supposedly as strong as "God-enhanced" SS1? Or is Goku holding back? Why would he need to transform to SS1 if he's stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base and could just power up to deflect Kuririn's blast?

Debating whether or not it makes sense that Trunks is that strong clearly showcases there's a problem with the powerscale. And it clearly shows there's no consistency with how power-ups are gained and how characters are portrayed if people are raising their eyebrows.

I think you're just choosing to ignore all the problems that are very clearly there.

[Asura]

There is a reason why "he was just holding back" has literally become a meme, and it's not because the show itself keeps saying it, it's the fans. Like Doctor. pointed out, fans are left to fill in these holes and gaps in logic and consistency by using excuses like "holding back", or "they did it to make a cool scene".

The only thing that is consistent about the power scaling in this show is the excuses people will come up with to try and justify it.

[PFM18]

Yeah I mean Goku went SSJB but again it was just a spectacle to make a cool scene. he was obviously holding back. Goku did have to go SSJ3 to beat Trunks which makes sense since Goku had to go SSJ2 against Zamasu and Trunks can compete with Zamasu. So yeah I mean Trunks is super strong, you can debate whether he SHOULD be that strong but he is clearly strong. There is plenty of consistency you just have to take the fight scenes with context.

SSB aside, Goku still had to go Super Saiyan 1 against Kuririn to avoid getting pushed out of the platform. Is Kuririn now supposedly as strong as "God-enhanced" SS1? Or is Goku holding back? Why would he need to transform to SS1 if he's stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base and could just power up to deflect Kuririn's blast?

Debating whether or not it makes sense that Trunks is that strong clearly showcases there's a problem with the powerscale. And it clearly shows there's no consistency with how power-ups are gained and how characters are portrayed if people are raising their eyebrows.

I think you're just choosing to ignore all the problems that are very clearly there.

I dont recall that specific instance with Goku going SSJ but I'll take your word for it.

Whether or not trunks being that strong is sensible isnt any different than the question of whether Freeza 17 and Gohan being as strong as they are. That is up to you whether it makes sense to you but that doesnt mean the scale itself is objectively inconsistent.

I think you're just choosing to consciously look for problems because that is the nature of pessimists. And you clearly have no problem using the clsssic trope "You are the only one I know that thinks this way, therefore you are wrong."

[Doctor.]

I dont recall that specific instance with Goku going SSJ but I'll take your word for it.

Whether or not trunks being that strong is sensible isnt any different than the question of whether Freeza 17 and Gohan being as strong as they are. That is up to you whether it makes sense to you but that doesnt mean the scale itself is objectively inconsistent.

I think you're just choosing to consciously look for problems because that is the nature of pessimists. And you clearly have no problem using the clsssic trope "You are the only one I know that thinks this way, therefore you are wrong."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSBwdso_Fh8

Yes, it does. When characters get stronger arbitrarily (and with no quantifiable way to ascertain how strong they've gotten since, again, there's no measuring stick because Goku just holds back arbitrarily against everyone), that affects the scaling. This is simple.

I've defended Super a ton of times. I usually avoid that fallacy, but trying to argue that the power scaling in Super isn't completely fucked up the ass is like arguing that the sky is red at this point. At a base level, the series presents you with two conflicting portrayals of how strong X character is supposed to be and doesn't provide any explanation to bridge the gap between the two contrasting portrayals. That means, then, that the power scaling in the series is bad.

Do I really have to mention how Beerus used "10%" of his power against Vegeta back in the BoG arc to serve as the final nail in the coffin?

[PFM18]

I dont recall that specific instance with Goku going SSJ but I'll take your word for it.

Whether or not trunks being that strong is sensible isnt any different than the question of whether Freeza 17 and Gohan being as strong as they are. That is up to you whether it makes sense to you but that doesnt mean the scale itself is objectively inconsistent.

I think you're just choosing to consciously look for problems because that is the nature of pessimists. And you clearly have no problem using the clsssic trope "You are the only one I know that thinks this way, therefore you are wrong."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSBwdso_Fh8

Yes, it does. When characters get stronger arbitrarily (and with no quantifiable way to ascertain how strong they've gotten since, again, there's no measuring stick because Goku just holds back arbitrarily against everyone), that affects the scaling. This is simple.

I've defended Super a ton of times. I usually avoid that fallacy, but trying to argue that the power scaling in Super isn't completely fucked up the ass is like arguing that the sky is red at this point. At a base level, the series presents you with two conflicting portrayals of how strong X character is supposed to be and doesn't provide any explanation to bridge the gap between the two contrasting portrayals. That means, then, that the power scaling in the series is bad.

Do I really have to mention how Beerus used "10%" of his power against Vegeta back in the BoG arc to serve as the final nail in the coffin?

I dont dispute that there are problems with the power scaling. I think there are issues. But most of the instances you cited are not good examples of this at all in my opinion. It is most definitely not "fucked up the ass" and it isnt any more messed up than DBZ or DB nut it just appears that way since people perpetually misinterprt things and get frustrated.

As far as the characters becoming stronger arbitrarily, yes it does happen, but would you prefer that these characters stay perpetually inferior to Goku and Vegeta because then the story would be absent of any arbitrary boosts? There isnt a good way to rationalize the size of the power ups but the alternative is to keep them weak and useless and if they were useless then people would complain about them being useless. Either way people are going to complain on the matter. Furthermore, how many people that think differently will not sway me.

It is funny that you mention that you have defended super "a ton of tines" when I havent seen you once doing anything close to even resembling "defending" it.

[Doctor.]

I dont dispute that there are problems with the power scaling. I think there are issues

Right, then we're done here. Not sure why you started the argument if you agree.

As far as the characters becoming stronger arbitrarily, yes it does happen, but would you prefer that these characters stay perpetually inferior to Goku and Vegeta because then the story would be absent of any arbitrary boosts?

No, I'd prefer the characters get stronger with rational explanations for their power boosts. You know, like the original series mostly did.

It is funny that you mention that you have defended super "a ton of tines" when I havent seen you once doing anything close to even resembling "defending" it.

You've been here for a month. I've been here for the entirety of Super's run.

[Whatever]

Piccolo is weaker than the adult SSJs in the Buu saga. That's all you need to know about his power because anyone not on par with a SSJ was trash at that point. His standing is literally the same as it is by the end of the Cell Games.

That depens on what you mean,in the Cell games only Vegeta,Trunks and Piccolo could fight the Cell juniors and not get fodderized.
But thats not the point,the point was the Dabura considered Piccolo's energy trash in comparisson to the base Saiyans,one of them being the Gohan that got weaker while Piccolo was stronger than the base saiyans back at the cell games.

Dabura is on par with Perfect Cell.

Goku stated he underestimated Dabura(when he was fighting with Gohan)and he was stronger than he thought.
So yeah Dabura was stronger than Cell,whatever he meant Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell that does not matter for my point.

Even if Gohan did not go SSJ2, it does not matter because SSJ Goku gave Perfect Cell a run for his money, and Gohan clearly did not dominate Dabura in their fight. And if he was SSJ2, it's outright stated that he is much weaker than he used to be, so there's no inconsistency here either.

SSJ Goku gave a Perfect Cell that was holding back a run for his money.
The problem here is that Gohan was clearly 'drawn' as a SSJ,so he should not be able to hang around against someone of that caliber but if he was ssj2 then why was he drawn as a ssj the whole fight?
You either believe Toriyama who drew him as a ssj or proper power scalling and assume he is ssj2,even the guidebooks can't decide if he was ssj1 or ssj2.

The Buu saga does not follow GT's rulebook, where a saiyan's base form can become stronger than a SS2. Majin Vegeta outright praises Goku after he becomes a SSJ2 by stating that he's become stronger than SSJ2 Kid Gohan (this is after 7 years of training). Hence, the scaling was exactly the same as the saga before it. You can indeed tell who's stronger than who.

The buu saga is the harder of the dbz sagas to scale because its full of retcons and incosistencies.
Shin was simply pleasantly impressed at ssj2 Gohan's power but drops his jaw to the floor when he sees base Vegeta's power.
The same Shin who restricted ssj2 Gohan could not do anything to stop ssj1 Majin Vegeta(which as per your statement should have been possible).
Then the same Shin fuses with Kibito(who was stated to be strong enough to give base Gohan a good match)yet still is treated as inferior/non noteworthy by Old Kai even in comparisson to ssj2 Vegeta.

Thats why people can't decide if Shin was strong or not,because of things like that.
Personally i think Toriyama changed how strong he wanted Shin to be,between the tournament and on the way to babidi's ship.

In Super, I still don't know where Android 17 or Trunks stand. Are they SSJB level? SSJ3? Stronger than Mystic Gohan? I have no clue. Is Kale stronger than SSJB? But wasn't she getting smacked around by SSJG? Were Hit's constant improvements retconned? Does Base Goku have god powers? Was this retconned too? So are the Uni 6 saiyans (sans Kale) that much stronger than the Uni 7 saiyans or just as strong as their Buu saga selves? But wasn't SSJ3 Gotenks smacked around by Copy Vegeta, only for Base Goku to match the latter? But then Kale is able to fight Goku's SSJ2 form, so she's stronger than Gotenks?

Well the bolded parts are pretty much powercreep rather than scalling issues.

[PFM18]

I dont dispute that there are problems with the power scaling. I think there are issues

Right, then we're done here. Not sure why you started the argument if you agree.

As far as the characters becoming stronger arbitrarily, yes it does happen, but would you prefer that these characters stay perpetually inferior to Goku and Vegeta because then the story would be absent of any arbitrary boosts?

No, I'd prefer the characters get stronger with rational explanations for their power boosts. You know, like the original series mostly did.

It is funny that you mention that you have defended super "a ton of tines" when I havent seen you once doing anything close to even resembling "defending" it.

You've been here for a month. I've been here for the entirety of Super's run.

I never said I agree. My stance is that Super has about the same amount of power scaling issues as DB and DBZ.(At the worst it is slightly worse than those two) You say that it is "fucked up the ass" because i assume you dont feel the same way about the scaling of DBZ then i would say I vehemently disagree with you.

Oh you would prefer rational explanations foe their power boosts? Really? So it was very rational that when Vegeta got his zenkais from Namek the firat one yielded a 33% boost, the 2nd a 50-80% boost and the third giving him a roughly 1000% boost. What about Goku who, compared to Vegeta, is supposed to he low class, but his zenkai yields a 3233% increase? So did shittier class warriors get better zenkais? Despite taking a bigger beating against Vegeta and getting an almost negligible zenkai boost?(between Saiyan and namek he gained an 11x boost but that was implied to be because of his gravity training.) Piccolo when the androids arrive goes feom being at about 1 million to being capable of beating dr gero who is arounf Freeza level? So he gets hundreds of times stronger without ever being shown to be remotely capable of anything close to that? (Or anything close to that kind of increase afterwards) when he didnt get a transformation or anything of the sort either. He literally got 4x stronger at the most in the few years prior to the Saiyans showing up. Or Gohan getting literally thousands of times stronger in the year he spends in the time chamber? I could go on this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Dragon ball has literally always made characters as strong as needed to be convenient for the plot. It is no different in Super. I cant help but wonder if people that act like arbitrary power boosts didnt exist prior to Super existed are blinded by nostalgia.

Why would the ppwer scaling be the same throughout the 3 series? Because DB has been given to us by the same people before super the only difference is people watched it the first time when they were like 12 and now they are adults and they look at differently as adults.

[Doctor.]

Oh you would prefer rational explanations foe their power boosts? Really? So it was very rational that when Vegeta got his zenkais from Namek the firat one yielded a 33% boost, the 2nd a 50-80% boost and the third giving him a roughly 1000% boost. What about Goku who, compared to Vegeta, is supposed to he low class, but his zenkai yields a 3233% increase? So did shittier class warriors get better zenkais? Despite taking a bigger beating against Vegeta and getting an almost negligible zenkai boost?(between Saiyan and namek he gained an 11x boost but that was implied to be because of his gravity training.) Piccolo when the androids arrive goes feom being at about 1 million to being capable of beating dr gero who is arounf Freeza level? So he gets hundreds of times stronger without ever being shown to be remotely capable of anything close to that? (Or anything close to that kind of increase afterwards) when he didnt get a transformation or anything of the sort either. Or Gohan getting literally thousands of times stronger in the year he spends in the time chamber? I could go on this is just the tip of the iceberg.

No, none of that is very logical. Which is why I said that the original series "mostly" had reasonable explanations. Now if you could stop projecting this view that I think the original series is perfect and Super has no qualities onto me, I'd appreciate it.

The argument I'm making is that, despite all of Z's faults, you could mostly always tell how different characters compared to each-other (again, with some exceptions in the Boo arc, when the series was running on fumes) because the series was always very clear on that point. You can't tell how characters compare to each-other in Super because their strength arbitrarily changes to suit the plot. Characters in Z got strong as the plot necessitated, yes, but when a character got stronger or weaker, it was always pointed out. A character's power in Super can be portrayed in completely contrasting ways and nobody in-universe will bat an eye or act like something's wrong.

There is no excuse in-universe for the way someone like, say, Beerus has been portrayed - someone who had to use 10% of his power against a Super Saiyan 2 back in the BoG arc and yet, somehow, Goku in his Super Saiyan God and Blue forms, with Kaioken stacked on top of that, is still weaker than him. There's no excuse in-universe for Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base and yet he needs to go Super Saiyan to deflect a blast from Kuririn. There is no excuse for Trunks to get as strong as a "God Ki enhanced" Super Saiyan 2 Goku and yet no character in-universe comments on Trunks' ridiculous leap in power; and for him later to go toe-to-toe with Rosé Black in SS2, again, with nobody even batting an eye. There is no excuse for it being heavily implied that Super Saiyan God is a bigger power boost than the Potara, only for us to arrive at the ToP arc and see that the Potara is, in reality, a much, much bigger boost than Super Saiyan God.

You can make excuses yourself, you can say that x character has to be this strong because it's what makes sense with what was shown, but all of that is irrelevant when the damn show doesn't respect its audience enough to keep things consistent or offer explanations when stupid shit happens.

blinded by nostalgia.

This again

[PFM18]

Oh you would prefer rational explanations foe their power boosts? Really? So it was very rational that when Vegeta got his zenkais from Namek the firat one yielded a 33% boost, the 2nd a 50-80% boost and the third giving him a roughly 1000% boost. What about Goku who, compared to Vegeta, is supposed to he low class, but his zenkai yields a 3233% increase? So did shittier class warriors get better zenkais? Despite taking a bigger beating against Vegeta and getting an almost negligible zenkai boost?(between Saiyan and namek he gained an 11x boost but that was implied to be because of his gravity training.) Piccolo when the androids arrive goes feom being at about 1 million to being capable of beating dr gero who is arounf Freeza level? So he gets hundreds of times stronger without ever being shown to be remotely capable of anything close to that? (Or anything close to that kind of increase afterwards) when he didnt get a transformation or anything of the sort either. Or Gohan getting literally thousands of times stronger in the year he spends in the time chamber? I could go on this is just the tip of the iceberg.

No, none of that is very logical. Which is why I said that the original series "mostly" had reasonable explanations. Now if you could stop projecting this view that I think the original series is perfect and Super has no qualities onto me, I'd appreciate it.

The argument I'm making is that, despite all of Z's faults, you could mostly always tell how different characters compared to each-other (again, with some exceptions in the Boo arc, when the series was running on fumes) because the series was always very clear on that point. You can't tell how characters compare to each-other in Super because their strength arbitrarily changes to suit the plot. Characters in Z got strong as the plot necessitated, yes, but when a character got stronger or weaker, it was always pointed out. A character's power in Super can be portrayed in completely contrasting ways and nobody in-universe will bat an eye or act like something's wrong.

There is no excuse in-universe for the way someone like, say, Beerus has been portrayed - someone who had to use 10% of his power against a Super Saiyan 2 back in the BoG arc and yet, somehow, Goku in his Super Saiyan God and Blue forms, with Kaioken stacked on top of that, is still weaker than him. There's no excuse in-universe for Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base and yet he needs to go Super Saiyan to deflect a blast from Kuririn. There is no excuse for Trunks to get as strong as a "God Ki enhanced" Super Saiyan 2 Goku and yet no character in-universe comments on Trunks' ridiculous leap in power; and for him later to go toe-to-toe with Rosé Black in SS2, again, with nobody even batting an eye. There is no excuse for it being heavily implied that Super Saiyan God is a bigger power boost than the Potara, only for us to arrive at the ToP arc and see that the Potara is, in reality, a much, much bigger boost than Super Saiyan God.

You can make excuses yourself, you can say that x character has to be this strong because it's what makes sense with what was shown, but all of that is irrelevant when the damn show doesn't respect its audience enough to keep things consistent or offer explanations when stupid shit happens.

blinded by nostalgia.

This again

I mean I am not trying to accuse you of saying that DBZ is flawless it just appears that you are more willing to ignore the flaws within Z than you are with Super.

In Super you can mostly tell how different characters compare to each other. But you especially cant if you aren't paying close enough attention and dont consider anything that isnt stated explicitly.

Beerus did not HAVE to use 10% of his power against Vegeta he just said that he DID use 10% of his power against Vegeta. There is no contradiction there. Super Saiyan God was always portrayed as a much larger boost than to Potara. Once achieving Super Saiyan God Goku absorbed that power and that is how his base form went from being weaker than Namek Freeza to stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. This point of "absorbing" the power was thoroughly emphasized during BoG. Once he has achieved the form, going from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God isn't a particulary massive boost. Trunks became much stronger but there isn't neccessarily anything contradicting his increase in strength. The only example of an inconsistency here is Goku having to go SSJ to deflect Kuririn's blast.

What you call making excuses I call taking an unbiased approach to the series. Super literally has barely any more, if at all, more power scaling issues than Z did.

[DBZAOTA482]

-Power Scaling or escalation of feats
-Progress the characters in a meaningful way instead of regressing/flanderizing them
-Not rely on Dragon Ball nostalgia so much
-More competent/passionate writers

[Doctor.]

I mean I am not trying to accuse you of saying that DBZ is flawless it just appears that you are more willing to ignore the flaws within Z than you are with Super.

It seems that way because you're establishing a false equivalency between the two series. You're looking at the surface and saying "hey, they do the same things, right?" whilst ignoring the execution. Besides, this is a thread about Super, why would I criticize Z?

Z having problems doesn't negate Super's problems as much as you want to act like it does. If it was bad in Z, it's bad in Super. The only reason Z "gets a pass" is because its problems are fewer and aren't as blatant.

Agree to disagree, this is a waste of time.