Yes, but for feeling the same type of way that Zamasu does and understanding how most mortals are bad I would like for them to show a lot more cases so I could see his viewpoint. The Dragon Ball Universe is very, very bare for a world that contains 12 universes, we've only ever seen Earth, Namek and small sections like Beerus's planet at this point in the series, which for the most part are relatively full of good people. Dinosaur planet being one of the only planets that has some lack of morality and barbaric ways shown and just saying that he's seen more isn't a good way for me to get on board with his mindset on mortals.
That planet was completely rotten. Even after a thousand years those beasts kept fighting each others mindlessly. They had no excuse, the Gods gave them wisdom and intellect and they chose to use them to continue their vicious cycle of violence. Yeah, they brought all of that upon themselves. If your creation is flawed, you don't just stand there and do nothing, you fix it or get rid of it.
Yes, a speech. I want to see his methods of justice and guidance that the Gods and Kais he claims doesn't do and see how his effect on planets and beings are different for the better or worse. His thoughts without the actions then immediately goes different with his thoughts he sought out in the first place doesn't let me feel for him and see that his methods can be a right thing.
You would have witnessed the beautiful paradise he would have created had those damned time-travelling mortals not messed with his plans.
A world without beings or life isn't even a world anymore, it's an empty space full of rocks and Zamasu. I don't see how an empty world full of nothing can be a better world that people can side with and want Zamasu to succeed in creating. If they DO agree with him and want that to happen in Dragon Ball then I have no idea what they seek in this show lol
Zamasu was the most powerful Supreme Kai in existence, it is clear that he would have used his powers as a God of Creation to shape new life (like Fused Zamasu did when he created that sentient bird-shaped creature as part of the Lightning of Absolution technique), thereofore it wouldn't just be a massive Multiverse inhabited only by Zamasu, but rather Zamasu would use his powers as a Kai to create a new type of God/mortal bound solely to his will and he can finally realize his long-sought dream of becoming the sole master of the Multiverse and a God praised by everyone.
Killing your master, innocent people, torture and punishing those for crimes you yourself commit makes him an evil character. A fun character, but an evil one.
Just like destroying half a planet, and the thousands of innocents in it, just because they didn't cook a good meal makes Beerus evil. A fun character, I may give you that, but an evil one nonetheless, yet I don't see Goku or co. ever mentioning that! I mean, yeah, ok, Zamasu was bad, how about the thousands of innocent families who lost their lives because Beerus didn't like the cake they baked on that planet?
like mortals having no respect for God's like Goku
And mortals directly threatening Gods (Goku and Babarian), wasting/abusing the gifts of the Gods (Babarians, and countless other examples), and mortals breaking the sacred laws of the Gods (The Time Machine). From Zamasu's, and any sensible God's, perspective, mortals are just criminals who keep repeating the same mistakes again, and again, and again, all the while breaking the laws of their creators with no remorse or thought given.
Yeah Gowasu's a tea loving hippie, but even though he isn't the best teacher, we still see him try to lead Zamasu down a good path and generally cares for his pupil.
He was a tragically sad teacher, he should be ashamed of myself. He failed Zamasu, Zamasu is his sin alone. I am glad that he wil bear the shame of failure to the very end of his long life.
I'm pretty sure his goal from showing the planet in the past and future wasn't to make Zamasu a bloodthirsty murderer,
Gowasu's brilliant logic:
"My apprentice is disgusted by the violence of mortals who do not learn from their mistakes and throw away the gifts granted to them by the Gods, so to resolve his doubts, I'm going to show him a planet full of bloodthirsty and frenzied beasts who, even after a thousand years, can't get over their cruelty and madness and make good use of the gifts of the Gods'.
I am at a loss for words. Gowasu is the worst teacher. Someone replace him, quickly! Anyone? Oh, right, who fucking cares about having actual good and competent people leading the Universes. Certainly not that naive kid Zeno.
he was twisted and beyond help before the Zero Mortals Plan had been planned and Zamasu killing Gowasu in cold blood isn't helping people agree with his mindset and views any.
No he wasn't. Zamasu had a pure heart before the last straw, even Gowasu aknowledged that, and he would have noticed if Zamasu's heart had been pure evil.
Yes, but how can we see his views on justice and agree to his ideals when he immediately goes back on everything that laid the groundwork as a character?
Because he gathered the Super Dragon Balls twice, subsequently killed all Gods in the entire Multiverse (it's not like they were useful anyway, that bunch of lazy fools), and destroyed several mortal civilizations, so obviously he was seriously convinced that he was acting in the best interests of the Multiverse; he even cried for his ideals and for the world.
My main point I was addressing is how people, the audience, can't take Zamasu's side in the arc and want him to succeed
Considering that Zamasu's mindset is often debated on social medias (especially now that the Dub is in his arc), it would seem that viewers can and do indeed sympathize with Zamasu's cause. Zamasu was not inherently evil, in fact he even had a pure heart once, and he stated upon becoming Gowasu's apprentice that he would devote himself to universal peace. A terrible teacher, a regrettably foolish guest, and a people of rabid barbarians sadly twisted the young and promising Kai.
I can assure you: if Zamasu had witnessed Universe 3 or New Namek instead of the Babarians, had he met a respectable and mature opponent like Gohan instead of Goku, and had had a cunning teacher, things would have gone much differently. And this is the tragedy of Zamasu, he didn't necessarily want to do those evil things, but he was misguided beyond repair, and the one who was supposed to teach him about the true meaning of justice, failed miserably.
After all, there is a reason why Gowasu ultimately says that 'Zamasu is his sin'. He realizes that he is partly guilty for Zamasu's actions. If he had been a good teacher, chances are that Zamasu would have changed for the better, since he was never inherently evil like Frieza or Buu.
You stated that good writing for a villain is one that has it to where you can agree with both sides and understand both sides dilemmas which i was mainly going against as I feel Zamasu cannot be agreed to morally or ethically compared to the heroes, not that he's a bad character or a Baby clone which he isn't on both accounts.
The problem is that the heroes are not that good are either. At least not Beerus. See the above example of him destroying thousands upon thousands of innocent life because he didn't like the food they cooked on that planet. For some reason, Goku and his friends were appalled by Zamasu's actios, but Beerus' gratuitous violence or Zeno's apathetic and disgustingly violent nature are so much different and better.
I hope I have proved that Zamasu is not full-blown evil. Actually, to elaborate on that, his intentions were good (universal peace), but his methods were questionable. Zamasu's philosophy is the classic 'the end justifies the means', and personally, I can understand very well Zamasu's point of view: if eliminating all mortals means that the Multiverse will finally be a beautiful and peaceful utopia, then why should he, a God, have mercy over those creatures who, from his point of view (after witnessing several examples too) do nothing but waste the divine gifts and cause violence amongst the Multiverse. Obviously, there are exceptions, not all mortals are evil. But then again, not all mortals are virtuous either, so it's not like Zeno and the Grand Priest accomplished that much with the Tournament of Power in the end.
Anyway, as much as I adore discussing Zamasu, perhaps it is better to stop this oddly specific Zamasu discussion since this thread is about the 'confrontation' between Super and GT.