The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

RoF SsjB Goku vs SsjG Goku ToP arc

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Continuing:

[spoiler]Even trunks (kid trunks) was surprised that he actually pushed Ssj2 Goku back, and was strong enough to fight him:



This doesn't prove much, but it does show relevance to how powerful Future Trunks is (no one noted that Goku held back, but it doesn't matter since it is mentioned by Kid Trunks who knows nothing of his future self and wouldn't expect much of himself either way). Consider this as a token rather than anything, but keep this in mind as well.

Goku's Ssj2 was so powerful against Zamasu, that Gowasu even states that Goku's power rivals a God Of Destruction:



We do know how absurd this statement is, but it stays factual that Gowasu was even comparing Goku to a God Of Destruction. That ALONE is so much proof to show that SsjG BoG is nothing to current Goku. Goku mentions that this fight reminded him of when he fought Beerus as a SsjG last time bases on its intensity and power:



Heck, Goku even states that he has room to become as strong as Beerus (implying that Zamasu's strength is at least on par with Goku after his God Power up from BoG arc):





We already established that Goku's base is far beyond that level of strength whatsoever, which implies that Goku was holding back against Zamasu. Goku always tests his opponents and holds back against them, which is also implied by Krillin when Goku dashes towards Jiren

A Better proof that Goku was holding back against Zamasu was when Zamasu wanted to kill Goku after his plan got exposed. Zamasu already attacked/was attacking Goku and Goku performed a stance and was about to block his attack in base form:











This All shows that Goku's Base is Stronger than Zamasu, who's equal to Goku Post God Power up in BoG Arc, or the Beerus who was holding back against Goku (hence Goku referenced Beerus earlier on). Yet Goku was confident in beating him in Base Form (Zamasu trying to Kill everybody and proceed with his predetermined plan is just him being in denial, because he knows Beerus, Whis, and Goku who defeated him earlier on are there).

Right now, I'll be showing concrete evidence on Why Goku was holding back against Trunks (Though Trunks is comparable or even beyond SsjG BoG), and how Goku having trouble against Goku Black doesn't prove that Goku is weaker.

First, let's start with analysing Goku vs Trunks, a battle which has increased the controversy behind this topic

Goku tells Trunks that he "isn't half bad". This suggests that Goku is crediting him for improving to such an extent of power, however it's quite obvious from this statement that Goku is measuring Trunks and that's all:



We already know that Goku has a bad habit of holding back against his opponents:



So, Goku is testing Trunks, that's all. However that is not to say that Trunks is weak, since as we showed before, Beerus complements Trunks's power quite a lot it seems. Whis becomes concerned about Goku Black's Power when he learns of Trunks's power, already knowing that it's fodder against Goku black:



This is an important point to us that Trunks really is strong. But Trunks is still not a God Tier. We already showed how sensing the Ki of a God means that you're a God Tier character, but then Trunks couldn't sense God Ki at all from Vegeta when he went SsjB:



This is supported by how Hit and Cabba were able to sense God Ki, who were proven to be a match to our heroes:





Trunks confirms that he's nowhere near Goku Black even as a Ssj2, and that he kept powering up each time they fought:





This obviously means Goku is holding back, as Goku was also capable of sensing Beerus's God Ki easily after The Universe 6 Tournament:



However Let's continue and not rush things. We'll show exactly as much evidence as you need to understand that Goku was holding back and is far beyond Trunks. Trunks then states he'll go full power against Ssj3 Goku, still fails though:



Trunks claims that Goku Black is as strong, and maybe even stronger than Ssj3 Goku:





Recall that Trunks stated that the Goku Black from the future seemed to be stronger than the one Goku fought?:





So I guess that would mean Goku Black is also not much far away from Trunks, making Goku far weaker than SsjG BoG right??? WRONG

While I understand that this has been stated directly, I'll show you how it absolutely makes no sense and is contradicted later on.

This can neatly be explained if we go and dissect Goku's battle with Goku Black when they fought for the first time

For starters, let's mention that Vegeta tells Trunks that he's absolutely no match against Black, despite not complaining about Goku having a go at him, even though Vegeta knows Goku's bad habit of holding back against his opponents at first, which is further proven when Goku Black and Goku state to each other to stop measuring each other's strengths:



Second Thing is, Trunks mentions that Goku Black is a little bit weaker than from the future, and bolding it "a little bit", who originally stomped Trunks and easily dealt with him without much Trouble at all:







This Goku Black was dealt with Ssj2 Goku, who wasn't going all out (we'll also show this later on), despite Trunks stating that Goku Black is on par, if not stronger, than Ssj3 Goku who fought Trunks. This would mean Ssj2 Goku against Goku Black is beyond What he showed to Trunks.

At the same time, you might try to argue that this proves Goku Black isn't far from Trunks, making him below God Tier, right?

Problem is, This completely contradicts what's been mentioned in the fight between him and Goku.

Goku Black sends a Ki blast towards Base Goku, throwing him far behind. The Ki blast is strong enough to completely corner Base Goku and overpower him:









We already are seeing Base Goku struggling against Goku Black. Yes, Goku has the habit of holding back at first, but never has it been stated or implied later that Goku held back in base out there, unlike with Present Zamasu and Trunks. Goku then tells Goku Black that this can't be all the power he got, BASED on The power which pushed Base Goku back, going Ssj2:





Then Goku dashes towards Goku Black and attacks him. Goku Black then states this:





This implies that Goku's power is Stronger Than anything Goku Black fought, establishing a fact that the power Goku used Against black far exceeds what Trunks has ever demonstrated. This ultimately means that Trunks is fodder to Ssj2 Goku, despite us "seeing" that he went up against Ssj2 Goku. Ssj3 Goku solo'd Trunks easily, and has been claimed to be equal, if not weaker, than Goku Black. The Way Goku Black was shocked with the power from Goku makes no sense if we were to say that Goku wasn't holding back against Trunks. This goes to show that Trunks is fodder to Goku, but not Goku Black who was claimed to be even yet stronger In the future.

Goku is surprised that Goku Black's Ki went up:



What reason is there to say that his Ki got up? He already knows that Goku Black is as strong, if not stronger, than the power he showed trunks as a Ssj3 (Trunks adds doubt to his words when he says he might be above Even Goku, so it's a conclusion that Goku Black isn't far at all from Ssj3 Goku). According To Trunks, Goku Black showed strength beyond what he showed Goku, yet Goku still asks Trunks about that despite hearing his strength earlier on. This overlaps with the statement from Goku's battle with Trunks, which absolutely make no sense for it to be even mentioned In the first place, rendering Trunks's estimated mention of strength to Goku wrong (the one about being above Ssj3 Goku by a little). Now we are open to the possibility of Goku Black being God Tier as easily as possible.

Goku Black confirms that Goku is the strongest Saiyan he ever fought, and he's concerned about his power:





More confirmation that Goku is far beyond Trunks. Also, remember when Goku Black implied Goku is the strongest he ever fought (before this point by a couple of others)? He never once mentioned something like "So this is the power of Super Saiyan Trunks", but only Goku, implying the existence of a huge gap.

Goku Black equally trades blows with Ssj2 Goku:







It's obvious Goku is having trouble here, despite however, both of them are "measuring each other". Still, measuring each other is showing us that they're THIS strong. It completely contradicts what's  been mentioned before and implied by Trunks earlier.

Krillin states that Goku Black's power is rising:



Here, Goku Black overpowered Goku partly and even hurt him enough to scream and power up. It's evident at this point that Goku Black is not far from Goku who we proved to be beyond SsjG BoG By far in base form. No one is questioning why Goku went Ssj2 to fight Goku Black, as to say that he is far stronger in just base form, unlike with Trunks, in which it's confirmed Goku just decided to test him.

Trunks states why Goku isn't using Ssj3, which Vegeta answers him about his Habit of holding back:



Before anyone jump the guns and say that Ssj3 Goku against Trunks > Ssj2 Goku against Goku Black, no. We already showed before that Goku Black is more than enough to fight Goku without holding back as against Trunks, so this only means that Trunks is referring to Ssj3, hence the footage shows Goku going Ssj3 rather than a mention of his power back then directly.

Goku is willing to see Goku Black's power, proving that he's holding back, confirmed by Goku Black himself:





Goku Then DIRECTLY states that he should put out some SERIOUS work to force him to Go Full Power (Goku is directly saying he's going serious against him, not full power though, but serious, which defines itself and our argument entirely):



Goku overpowers him for some time until Goku Black powers up and overpowers Goku:













Based on the expression of pain given to Goku Black, Goku's obvious trial in a serious tone, and Goku Black overpowering that, it's kind of obvious that Goku Black is indeed a God Tier Thread. It's already evident enough.

Goku Black raises his power again, and everyone is surprised. It's implied that Ssj2 Goku is at least needed to fight Goku Black when Trunks asks why he didn't go Ssj3. Vegeta doesn't answer him that it isn't needed, but that he's always holding back, while the context was about him going Ssj3 to win against Goku Black:



Yet Goku manages to hurt Goku Black (when he was distracted though, but still hurt him enough):





Goku Black is so pained from Goku's attacks he falls to the ground when he returns back to the future, and reimplies that Goku is the strongest character he ever fought BY FAR. He even gets so strong he blitzes a suppressed SsjB Vegeta later on. Frankly speaking, this is so much evidence and proof on its own:





















Another point is that Goku was worried about how much will Goku Black become stronger, but there's no reason if he's a complete fodder to SsjG:





All of this establishes that Goku Black is a God Tier Character, and Trunks is a high-tier (perhaps even more) Buu Saga Tier/Low BoG Saga Tier (Less than SsjG BoG though)

Now Let's continue our road to prove that Goku in base form is far beyond SsjG BoG.

Goku SsjB was capable of overpowering Merged Zamasu, who's a fusion between Ssj Rose Goku Black (Post scythe) and Future Zamasu (Relative to SsjB Goku).

Some of you might argue that Merged Zamasu was suppressed and let his guard down.....

Um what? According to what we were witnessing, nothing of that sort has been shown to us. I'll prove it down now

At This point, Merged Zamasu was already mad when The Father-Son Galick Gun overpowered his blast. So he wasn't up to holding back at all.

Goku is already mad, and so by the Arc's logic, Goku's anger pushed him into further heights of strengths. Goku and Merged Zamasu throw their blasts at each other:











So where is the "holding back" or "let his guard down" point? I mean, this is kind of... WEIRD to say the least. Goku's Kamehameha and Merged Zamasu's holy wrath clash:



Merged Zamasu is shown struggling along with Goku:





This has angered Merged Zamasu even more, and results him in powering up further. I'd be delighted to see where was he holding back:





At the end of Episode 64, Goku's Kamehameha overpowers Merged Zamasu:





The next episode, Goku is seen to be struggling further against The Holy Wrath, but overpowers it and troubles Merged Zamasu:







This forces Merged Zamasu to throw out as much power as he can:



Goku goes full power and overpowers Merged Zamasu utterly:







Heck, Goku manages to destroy Zamasu completely:







For some reason this scene is forgotten, considering it means a lot go the issue of this entire post. Now that I brought it up, some of you might ask: "what relevance does this hold to the entire topic?". Well, I'm glad you asked.

This is the Potara fusion between Goku Black Super Saiyan Rose (Post scythe, who surpassed both Goku and Vegeta prior to getting angry against Merged Zamasu), and Future Zamasu (Who was able to go head to head against SsjB Goku). Basically, how much power should you have to overpower Merged Zamasu?

Potara Fusion is A × B:







The scan states that the Potara is as amazing as "multiplication". This would be depicted to be equivalent to Multiplication, or even Higher. Fusion Dance is multiplication:



According to Herms, it states that Fusion Dance is Multiplication:



The depiction given by the Super Exciting Guide is an estimation, giving Potara multiplier "multiplication". That means, at the very least, It's multiplication, but it also could be higher.

Dragon Ball Z Anime shows Goku telling Vegeta that their powers will be multiplied:



Now some of you will come mentioning 2 points:

1) It doesn't make sense (proceeding to give an example about Battle Powers)

Clarification: Stop, because there's no reason to give an example of a scale which absolutely makes no sense. We know that their powers multiply, that's all. Just That, examples and so on are unneeded, because it just increases the controversy which has no reason to exist in the first place. Offical material state this for us, so no need for trying to debunk something. Daizenshuu implies that power levels became immeasurable, and power levels have no use anymore due to their strengths being increased. So, reusing the concept of Battle Powers is wrong. However, understanding the concept is not wrong. For example, Fusion Dance is Multiplication. That's That, so no need to keep confusing yourself, as the entire concept of "making sense" will never occur in a fictional show which continuously contradicts itself. Just take the facts we are given as they are, without a grain of salt, and don't think too hard about it.

2) Vados states that Potara is the sum of their parts multiplied tens of times. Now that needs serious talk:





This honestly doesn't need much argument, because this has been debunked in the same Episode this statement arrived from. Kefla in base form surpassed SsjG Goku in the Tournament of Power, yet their bases are utter fodder to Goku's base even. That alone is all needed to state that this is absolutely an inconsistency. This case is rested

You might ask then, HOW did Goku get that strong against Merged Zamasu?

At that point, the show was focused on the fact that Saiyans get stronger the more they battle (By getting stronger WHILE AT BATTLE):



DBS made Zenkai Boosts a big deal to the point that you'd get stronger while fighting:



Support:

Even when Goku and Vegeta sensed Merged Zamasu's power, they still strive to go further:







They suggested fusion because Merged Zamasu was powerful enough to kill them before they improve enough.

Another point we need to mention is ANGER. Goku Black implies that Goku and Vegeta get stronger by anger (Goku Black got far stronger than previous when he got angry, utilized it and pulled out the scythe thinggy):



I mentioned this before, but here it is again: An Entire cover up about Zenkais including the Potential of Saiyans and their rate of Power increase during battle and the aftermath of battles. While what we showed above partially makes the point make sense (only partially, as it's still so high), like we discussed before, this is something supported, so we can't just disregard it and say something else. Thus, the point stands.

This makes Goku's base power retardedly stronger than what he originally showed before overpowering Merged Zamasu, and I think you could already get an estimate on it. This proves Goku's base form is beyond SsjG easily, no matter how you slice it. The scale results in this:



Let's continue now.

One year passes, Goku fights Hit, and tells him that he never let anyone he EVER faced surpass him:



(Note: Only exceptions are the characters who are stronger than Beerus or equal to him)

One of the characters who have defeated Goku in the Future Trunks arc is Mutated Merged Zamasu:



The reason Hit could go up Against this Goku is because Hit is far stronger and greater than what he revealed himself to be in the Universe 6 Arc, which is DIRECTLY stated by Goku:





This is only arguable if you tried to state that Mutated Merged Zamasu is above Beerus, but we'll show that later on, why it's wrong.

This is a good consideration of things, which shows that SsjB Goku could very well be above Mutated Zamasu, making his base undoubtly beyond any BoG, RoF, and Black Arc (except fusions and probably mid-high) tier character. You could take this with a grain of salt, but you can't forget it's a usable and hard evidence to back up this point.

Let's now jump into the Tournament of Power Arc.

Here, I'll be Proving why Current Goku surpassed SsjB Vegito from the Black Arc.

Now before you jump the guns and say it doesn't make sense, it actually does, from what's given to us in the show. Check this out, as I'm sure it absolutely DOES prove my point

First, let's look at when SsjG Goku fought Dyspo.

Dyspo is a character who was capable of blitzing Hit, and hurt him equally to his level. This Hit is far stronger than the one SsjB Goku struggled with:



Dyspo was capable of fighting Hit continuously

Hit had trouble fighting Dyspo and was partially overpowered speed-wise and power-wise. Later through the fight, Hit improves and tricks Dyspo. However, Dyspo avoided fighting Final Form Frieza:





Later, Dyspo starts dealing with Frieza (probably because Dyspo increased his speed, which is shown that he can, though not continuously and as he pleases):

















Yes, we're seeing Frieza (At the climax of the battle, after the start) stating that Frieza has just begun to see his Speed, but later Beerus proves his speed is increasing, and the same pattern occurs as when he increases his speed thousands of times over. Prior to that, Frieza was manhandling Dyspo easily and stood up after Dyspo grabbed to his tail without any damage whatsoever.

The Golden Frieza Multiplier is above SsjB Multiplier. In RoF, Golden Frieza was stronger than SsjB Goku:

Episode 25
Minute: 9
Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."







Base Goku in RoF arc was stronger than Final Form Frieza. Logically that would make Base Goku in the Tournament of Power above Final Form Frieza. They were portrayed as equals anyways (Both characters pained each other equally {Frieza was choking far worse} and this could be further expanded):





Base Goku was ready to fight Golden Frieza (Goku has absolutely no knowledge of Frieza's improvement in power, so it would make sense given our earlier scales which we deduced):











Each scene defines the other. It's OBVIOUS what the intention is revolving around. Basically, Base Goku ToP Arc > Hit Episode 104 > Hit Episode 71-72 ~ SsjB Goku Episode 71-72. Crazy as it may seem, it's shown to us, and that's more than enough.

Two questions may arrive: 1) That would make hit weaker than Base Goku which is wrong. 2) Why did Goku go SsjG against Dyspo If his base was enough?

Clarification:

1) Wrong, if you're talking in general. Hit was able to withstand the hits from Jiren which combated Ultra Instinct Goku:





Hit was also fast enough to dodge these same punches and escape them, when earlier on Dyspo blitzed that:











Later through the fight, Hit was shown to be able to push a stronger Jiren away. So no, Hit would have improved since the very fight with Dyspo

2) Well, let me ask you this back: Why did Goku go Ssj against Basil despite having his base form way more than enough to combat him? SsjG was just brought back for fan service, as it held no reason in the first place.

Need I mention something: I do know that Final Form Frieza's power in the Tournament is a bit weirdly and confusingly displayed, so if you want to ignore this evidence then fine, do so (there's no reason for that whatsoever though), but the next pieces of evidences and proofs are far more than enough to get the point that Base Goku >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG

Let's continue further now

Goku's Current SsjB Form is far stronger than his Ultra Instinct Form on Episode 110. I'll show this now

Kaioshin implies that Jiren's glare and one hand is far more powerful than anything they ever felt before, including Infinite Zamasu. Whis then states that he dares say his power is equivalent to a God Of Destruction (Quickly remember what we said about Mutated Merged Zamasu vs Beerus? this implies Gods of Destruction IN GENERAL are stronger than Zamasu), and perhaps surpassed it, concluding that the Rumor is true, while Vermouth agrees:



Beerus freaked out from Jiren's energy while Beerus didn't react much to Infinite Zamasu at all:













Notice The difference in reactions. Also, Whis says nothing about Zamasu's energy being above a God Of Destruction or even wasn't that worried or skeptical, unlike with Jiren.

Goku goes Ultra Instinct, a state which far exceeds the power of the Genki Dama, which was something that Goku thought would beat Jiren, the guy who oneshotted Goku SsjB Kaioken x20 with his eyes. Goku combats him and manages to Hit that same Jiren:







Goku throughout the Tournament becomes stronger than his Ultra Instinct Counterpart from Episode 110 in SsjB Form.

Goku on Episode 122 powers up to a huge extent, and Jiren is serious + is shocked after realizing what Goku is doing (the sudden Burst Goku does), while Jiren wasn't surprised by Goku's Earlier levels on Episode 109 and 110 at all except for the trick Goku did with the Kamehameha:











I know this doesn't show anything so major at all, this is a starting point but it does give a view of what's to be shown next. If we manage to prove that SsjB Goku on episodes 122+ is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, this would upgrade his base form far beyond SsjG BoG with utmost ease.

Goku fights Jiren far better than he did with him on Episode 109:







Later on, Jiren powers up even further (he solos both Goku and Vegeta far more easily). This is shown by Vegeta not even affecting Jiren at all. However, Vegeta states something interesting:



Vegeta has encountered Mutated Merged Zamasu's all out energy (which was capable of going head to head with Vegito's energy, and withstood a Final Kamehameha). This also includes Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110, Kefla and the newly improved Hit from Episode 111.

Vegeta still is confident of fighting ahead against Jiren:



You might argue he's just in denial. True, that's a worthy argument. This is heavily contradicted to what Vegeta did against Jiren. Vegeta made Jiren wet himself when Vegeta managed to hit Jiren:





Vegeta even trade blows with this same Jiren later on:











Do remember, that this Jiren is far stronger than anything Vegeta ever felt prior to this moment. "For some reason" Vermouth is also shocked....!:









Vegeta then charges the final flash. This power has let even Vermouth to wonder about the power of Saiyans despite having seen a Saiyan who achieved ultra instinct. He even got worried hilariously:







The statement Vermouth said about how can Vegeta's final flash have power higher than he did previously implies Vegeta's SsjB being above anything universe 7 has showed before. Vermouth's statement is suggesting that Vegeta's power can't be higher than what it is before, but after it he wonders about Saiyan Potentials. If Ultra Instinct is within Saiyan's potential, then it wouldn't be a surprise unless Vegeta's earlier level was shocking and more than Ultra Instinct episode 110 in the first place.

Despite Vegeta already witnessing Jiren's durability and everything to even withstand Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks and his previous attacks as well, Vegeta believes that his blast is enough to deal with Jiren and end his case:

https://pm1.narvii.com/6738/24b0e8ada05 ... 8v2_hq.jpg

Beerus believes Jiren would lose against Final Flash (Jiren is suppressed here though):



And it actually does make Jiren get serious and block with two hands. It also throws him down on the ground for a couple of seconds:









Toppo was worried, while he didn't show any such sign when Goku went to fight Jiren in Ultra Instinct on Episode 110:



Getting onto Episode 123. Goku and Vegeta are shocked that Jiren could walk right through Goku's traps as if it's something amazing, despite tanking attacks which are "supposed" to be better (implying Goku magically got stronger, though this is further supported down the road) (The reaction of Goku, and Vegeta's wonder is the surprise):





Goku fights Jiren while having his aura visible around him (never has Jiren done that before while fighting, and Jiren supposedly is ticked of due to what Goku did to him, which made him far more serious):





Jiren becomes more than just serious, and Vermouth comments that he senses a rise in Jiren and that he never has seen him that serious in a VERY LONG TIME:









This Jiren far surpasses anything Jiren has showed before, and Goku powers up, actually trading blows with that same Jiren:









Jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form.

Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:



Goku goes Kaioken x20 (It's stated he goes full power), and Beerus believes that Goku has a shot against this same Jiren:







Vegeta Also transforms, and both Vegeta and Goku attack Jiren together, and Jiren credits both of them to have become far stronger than before:



What I found interesting is that The Narrator states that BOTH Goku AND Vegeta are together in their limit-breaking forms, despite Goku only being in Kaioken x20, and the fact that Goku has already stated that he got the hang of Ultra Instinct (which originally is his limit breaking power, which has pushed Goku into ultimately new heights, yet Kaioken x20 {episode 123} transcends beyond that):



Apparently This case has shifted far beyond than whether current SsjB Goku or Vegeta surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, into how much did they get stronger[/u]

On Episode 127, Jiren shows his true strength, which is implied to be above anything else that has been revealed:







Goku, Vegeta and Android 17 manage to fight Jiren (although they're on teams, if they're far too inferior, Team Work would be rendered invalid):



Vegeta even manages to push Jiren and keep up with him (Goku's SsjB alone is relative to Vegeta as Both Goku and Vegeta are going on equal perspectives against Jiren):











This basically settles the case[/spoiler]

[PFM18]

Given how confused you are, I'll be posting why you're wrong

[spoiler]Goku reverts back from SsjG while fighting Beerus:





Beerus thought that the SsjG Time Limit has gone, although Goku didn't show any sign of notice:



Goku reverts back to Ssj:



Everyone senses Goku's Ki, thus everyone came to the same conclusion:









Again, you would think this means Goku got weaker while reverting back to Ssj right?

Wrong

You'd think this is the case based on the fact that Beerus easily starts to push Goku away:









Beerus casually pushed Goku with a finger as shown above, and casually talks while Goku is trying to attack him.

Is that true though? NO.

Prior to all that, before Goku started reverting back to Ssj, he still had his SsjG power intact, thus no one sensed him, and neither did Whis comment anything on it. Yet Beerus managed to ridicule that SAME SSJG POWER:





He quite clearly implies that Beerus is STILL using that same power against SsjG either way. Nothing suggests Beerus powered down. That's why he's easily blabbering while SsjG Goku is trying his best fighting Beerus.

Beerus specifies "this much power". Which amount of power? The power he is CURRENTLY using.

It doesn't make sense for Goku to get weaker. By Beerus's words themselves: Goku kept surpassing his limits during this same fight:



This is exactly what Goku's entire case revolves around in here, as will be shown down...

Vegeta throws a Ki blast towards Piccolo and Whis, because both of them thought this was "over" in which case Goku reverted to Regular Ssj, thus he "automatically lost" or at least according to them. Vegeta's action signifies that it isn't over yet:





Goku himself still dashes towards Beerus, without realizing he got weaker. This is all after he got flicked by Beerus:



This same Ssj Goku does better than the Goku who, at the end, faired very worse against Beerus:





This caused Beerus to question himself again (he wouldn't do that if he was weaker or if he was getting weaker, since Goku later got even stronger as a Ssj):





Happens TWICE:





Beerus knows that Goku can surpass his limits naturally.

Beerus tells Goku the case:





"I thought your time was up"

Implying he never got the slightest bit weaker at all.

Goku realizes he changed after being notified by Beerus:







Goku bluntly confesses that he doesn't feel weaker at all:





Beerus explains it:









With all of that mentioned, we can easily conclude that Goku's Power never got weaker at all. Despite the form being lost (this time limit was retconned in the tournament of power arc), the power completely merged with Goku. Thus, the power itself remained inside him, rather than the form in general. No power was lost, and Goku is still prone to getting stronger and breaking his initial limits further more.

Proof of Goku getting even further stronger is when he powered up to fight a powered-up Beerus and manages to trade blows with him, and enjoys the fight with Beerus:











The Narrator then confirms that only at this point did both characters perform a "true godly battle" rather than before (He also added to the notion "fighting idiots" or along this phrase, to emphasize their crazy lust for battle and how dense they are when it comes to usual critical manners, which is evident when Beerus said to Goku that his ignorance or foolishness has rubbed him off already):











The episode titles prove this:



They start all the way from "show me the power of Super Saiyan God!" which is the initial point, then we are shown that they are still going on with it, given we know Goku gets stronger through battle, then "Goku, Go Surpass Super Saiyan God!":



It is honestly evident enough here that they're trying to imply to us that Goku got stronger as a Ssj.

That's why later on, when Beerus decides to get even stronger and increase his strength, he starts soloing Goku, but he rises up telling Beerus it isn't over yet:



Despite having said before that he went Full Power:



Now you're probably thinking that it's only Ssj right? WRONG

Before we move on on a huge scale, let's go step by step, It's far neater and better that way

You might argue that Goku got weaker in the next episode (despite the fact that Episode 13 already proves that Goku got a lot stronger rather than weaker) because of this:





Although This actually proves nothing of that sort. Beerus is just trying to provoke Goku into showing more power than he's already doing by beating him up. In fact, this is just Beerus trying to state that a "SsjG" concept-wise is supposed to be stronger, and Nothing more or less.

Proof of Beerus just trying to provoke Goku is his reaction after Goku powers up based on Beerus's provocation:





That's It? For getting weaker? Goku powers up even MORE than before, and before was Goku getting even more powerful than SsjG. Apparently, Beerus wants to fight Goku at his fullest, so he's destroying him and provoking him into releasing more power, not getting weaker, or otherwise it would have been mentioned.

Ssj Goku Episode 13/14 >>>>> SsjG

Beerus starts beating up Goku casually again by increasing his power:







But all of this actually shows us that Beerus is far beyond Goku and that Beerus is using even further power against Goku, but Still having Goku beyond Beerus.

Beerus literally laughs and declares himself a winner with utmost joy when he outclasses Goku, which absolutely makes no sense if Goku got weaker since Beerus already proved himself to be above SsjG Goku on Episode 13 so Goku losing would be pretty much expected:





Yet even after all that, Goku comes back stating he's not done Yet, catching Beerus's attention, while barely phased from Beerus's blasts:





This would mean Goku would have to have gotten even stronger, due to the fact he couldn't with stand his earlier attacks, but then got stronger. An evidence behind it is Beerus praising Goku's Ssj power as the true power of a SsjG, the one he was always searching for, despite not saying a word of that to Goku previously until Goku powered up to his best. Beerus draws out a smirk on his face based on that power Goku put out which partially resisted Beerus's nullification:





Afterwards, Goku reverts back to Base form, completely beaten by Beerus. However Beerus states that Goku absorbed the SsjG power and PERFECTED IT. Beerus also credits his Ask power by stating that he let him use "this" much power:









Even more Proof that Goku got stronger is Beerus's next statement:



According to Beerus, he doubted the greatness to a SsjG until the end bit when he fought Goku. The only time he told Goku this was after his power increase when Goku resisted his Nullification power. This implies Goku got yet even FAR beyond SsjG, not weaker.

Goku Yet stands up again and gets stronger:









Not only does Goku believe he can beat the Beerus who Goku got a taste of his power (Usually characters can tell how strong another is just by witnessing them. They do underestimate them sometimes though), but he states he hasn't used all his power yet which goes contradictory to what he said AND did before.

Goku powers up yet again to his "every Ounce of Power", making Beerus state that he won't be able to extinguish him as easily. This implies that Beerus originally thought it's easy to extinguish Goku prior to the current situation, making Goku as a Ssj in the current situation beyond What he originally was before:







Here, Goku fires an all-out Kamehameha to Beerus, and Beerus throws a blast enough to "extinguish" Goku (Beerus implies that by telling Goku to show him every ounce of his power, then implying it's going to be the last thing). However, both of their attacks combine, creating the sphere of destruction, controlled under Beerus's favor (implying Beerus won the beam struggle overall):







Goku is forced to block that same blast which would destroy everything which gets near it. Goku tries as a Ssj but fails:









Note that this was even before Beerus makes The ball stronger and larger. 

Goku states that it still isn't over yet. You'd think he's simply in denial, but an interesting thing is about to take place:



Beerus tells Goku "you really sure you're not at your limit"? Beerus believes Goku's limit has been completely been reached, which is the level Goku got to as a Ssj. Goku however tells him to "shut up" and DESTROYS the Sphere of Destruction in base form:











Goku tells Beerus to Shut up because Beerus is deciding his limit to be where he got, which provokes Goku. This implids Goku at this time completely broke his limits, making his base form even beyond Regular Ssj that surpassed SsjG on multiple occasions far beyond normality. This is more evident as Goku tells Beerus not to judge people's limits, and laughs at the end, implying he surpassed his limits and beat Beerus's ever expectations completely::









Making Base Goku End of Episode 14 > Ssj Goku Episodes13/14 >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG Episode 9+

You might argue it's temporary, but no. That was NEVER been stated before and just speculation. Later arcs prove this to be the case which we'll go on in this. Some people might try to bring Vegeta's case, although his case is very different (Goku's case is shown to us that Goku broke his limits, unlike Vegeta who mutated into a temporary transformation), as in Vegeta's case, it's STATED by Beerus that his power fell back implying it to be a temporary boost. Another thing is that Vegeta's power was a transformation:



Even Episode 14's Title implies that Goku used every last bit of his power, which was in BASE FORM:



Let's further continue now through the arcs

Vegeta tries to surpass Goku and Beerus by training as hard as possible, and he certainly did get stronger than before, but nowhere near Goku and Beerus. Whis states that If Vegeta trains the same way, he'll never reach anywhere near Beerus:



This also includes Goku, as later on, Whis tells Vegeta if he learns to perfectly control his Ki, then he'll surpass Goku. This implies that if Vegeta doesn't learn this, he won't be able to surpass Goku, since this is also the only suggested way to surpass Goku by Whis, a character beyond Beerus:





Back then, it is believed by Vegeta that the SsjG Form in general has ran out, though Goku still absorbed that power and perfected it, besides already breaking his limits forth. So Vegeta is trying to surpass the Goku Who has broke his limits beyond what has already surpassed SsjG Goku's Power from BoG prior absorbing its power. Vegeta is trying to surpass Goku without going SsjG. He believes SsjG is useless, so he doesn't want to undergo the ritual, which Goku implies to be needed when Goku tells him that they promised so. This implies Goku REALLY did surpass SsjG power:









Notice How Vegeta differentiates SsjG from Goku in general? All relating to the same conclusion.

Vegeta trains for 6 months with Whis on Beerus's planet, which is a training supposed to be powerful enough to surpass Goku, who surpassed SsjG BoG as a Ssj and in Base Form as well. Vegeta is credited by Goku that he might have surpassed Goku, the being who surpassed SsjG from before:





Goku Even comments that Vegeta's Ki is completely different than it was on Earth, and not just power-wise, but almost everything about it, Type-Wise and all. Goku even "hardly" believes that he is Vegeta. Yet despite all that he states "you might be" and later is shown that Goku is Stronger Than Vegeta yet, but relative. This mainly shows that Vegeta's increase in power is astronomical indeed, to an utmost point which wouldn't be relevant if it was inferior to god levels, ESPECIALLY since According to Whis, this type of training would make Vegeta good enough to surpass Goku, who is referenced to have his God Level:





Goku And Vegeta in base form while being completely defenseless (They were occupied by their previous training from Whis) survived being Hit by a Ki blast from Beerus:









Whis Even makes it sound as if surviving it is a great feat on its own. If you think this blast was weak in comparison to what Goku fought, then you're absolutely wrong. Vegeta states that because Beerus is sleeping, he can't hold back:



Goku Even complements Vegeta on surving Beerus's attacks head on. This stimulates the factor of Zenkai boosts in them, which would be a huge factor to why Vegeta would gain this much power. All of this was done in BASE FORMS:





All of this shows how their base forms is in the realm of Gods as to how they are capable of surviving Beerus's unrestrained attacks, and in Base form. Ssj Goku was getting destroyed by Holding Back Beerus while fighting Beerus, suggesting that the power increase he got is certainly astronomical

We're still far from done yet. In RoF arc, when Krillin and Gohan sense Base Goku and Final Form Frieza fighting, Krillin implies that this battle (and in accordance to Gohan's reference to Ki), is more intense and holds MORE POWER than when Goku went against Beerus:





Basically, Krillin's and Gohan's fear and feel of the energies and intensity of the fight that's occurring surpasses that of Goku when he fought Beerus.

Do Note that, the Z Fighters sensed Goku's battle with Beerus when revered back to Ssj, got stronger by far, and his base form when he busted the sphere of Destruction

Proof of them sensing Goku in general after reverting back from SsjG (his Regular forms have no God Ki, enabling normal beings to sense his power):





You may argue that the narrator said Goku only surpassed SsjG when he went SsjB:



Wrong. This only implies that Goku learned to transform into a Stronger transformation. This is herm's translation and the interpretation based the translation:

Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."

Significance: As chapter 5 indicated a few months ago, Goku's blue form is a step up from Super Saiyan God. Also, another instance of "mutation" being used to describe a transformation.

Also, Krillin implies that Goku surpassed SsjG Transformation-Wise not power wise from BoG, as it also wouldn't make sense considering they can't even sense God Ki, which Gohan outrightly states in the following:















This is supported by how King Kai references the fact that Goku can now go SsjG without the ritual, which means the point wasn't about power, but was about transformation-wise:





Goku Even confirms it's a form that surpasses a SsjG (aside from the narrator from the next episode, meaning the narrator interpreted it that way), and not stating that it's a form which allows him to "surpass his power from when he went SsjG". This correlates with the previous references about it being only transformation-wise:



According to Whis, Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they're barely capable of sensing God Ki. This implies that there's a specific tier that you should top in order to get into the God Tier Zone:



Vegeta does that In base, and "barely". Note that at this time, their bases have already surpassed SsjG BoG at that time. SsjG Goku is the tip of the God Zone, as mentioned by Whis that just barely reached the level where they can sense God Ki, and in general, Despite having surpassed SsjG. This establishes the fact that Goku got stronger In base considering he's still "one step ahead of Vegeta":



Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases (Basically whis states that Goku and Vegeta should become stronger without going Super Saiyans). However, that's not actually the point of this statement. The term "Super Saiyan" can refer to all Super Saiyan forms, and this is exactly what Whis is referring to, reaffirming what Akira Toriyama stated in Saiko Jump's June 2014 Issue about Goku and Vegeta no longer resorting to going Ssj2 or Ssj3, and instead focus on mastering their base and regular Super Saiyan form (This was completely changed in later arcs, however based on the Tournament of Power, it can be concluded Goku mastered Ssj2, though not Ssj3 due to the Stamina Issues still being factored). Another point Whis implies is how training in their bases would be much more effective than in Super Saiyans, as Both Goku and Vegeta realize they should train in their bases rather than a Super Saiyan, otherwise they wouldn't know the realm of power that lies ahead, supported by the fact that Both Vegeta and Goku never once went Super Saiyan despite Whis never dismissing the idea of transforming:









So if anything, this supports me in many ways, as it also correlates with the previous scans which we used to prove our point. This rule of not transforming into more than a regular Super Saiyan has been obeyed and followed till the Universe 6 Arc, until it was completely ignored during the Future Trunks Arc.

The Goku in RoF arc has far surpassed his previous counterpart ridiculously. Beerus states that Goku got a lot stronger than back then (it is confirmed that Goku and Vegeta can only transform into Regular Super Saiyan if they wanted for any reason so that they could improve. This is supported by Whis, where he states that for them to improve, they should rely on their Base, and reaffirms the usage of Super Saiyan, and Base Mastery, hence relating to What Akira Toriyama Suggested previously. Although this was after achieving SsjB, Beerus has no knowledge of this, and even Whis generalizes their inferiority when it comes to going to the dimension {Despite both having SsjB's initial power} which you can't move in unless you prevent the leakage of your Ki despite even stating that they became much more powerful in a very short amount of time, with surprised tone. Beerus apparently realized the Saiyan's Potential, which explains why he wanted to hurry and throw them in that Dimension Whis sends them to, as they'd improve quickly to give Beerus fun fighting him) and wanted to fight him (Goku admits his utter inferiority to Beerus Power-Wise though) {I'd also like to mention that if Goku and Vegeta were to be thrown in that Dimension which Whis throws both to, he thought (Despite witnessing their power and initial SsjB power) it's too much for them. Both Goku and Vegeta live up to Beerus's expectations}:









Both Goku and Vegeta are thrown into a place which is far beyond their limits back then:





Again, this was after Whis witnessing Goku's and Vegeta's initial SsjB power:







Indeed, both Goku and Vegeta manage to surpass their limits and become capable of moving in this Dimension Whis throws them into, meeting Beerus's Expectations and surpassing Whis's:















(NOTE: This "Initial SsjB" business, while it's true it might (MIGHT) be temporary transformation-wise, the power itself was never said to be temporary, since Vegeta smirks as he achieves this power and whis notes their heightened powers, implying they got stronger at the instance forward).

Goku got far stronger than before that it's utterly ridiculous to say the least. I'll be showing that more now

In the Universe 6 Arc, Goku and Vegeta enter the Room Of Spirit And Time for 3 years, continuously training together, so their must have been a significant increase, although not much known (but significant). You may argue that Vegeta stated they reached their limits:



That's completely wrong. Vegeta was already distant from the idea of training with his rival, Kakarot. While that may seem to be an assumption pulled out by me at first sight, I've proven (easily done) it. This ultimately and factually proves it isn't an assumption, considering the show, as expected, contradicted itself. Characters have been getting stronger yet so it isn't a stretch to say they got stronger.

Base Goku in the Universe 6 tournament manages to scratch hit:





You would think that this is not a reliable answer, right? Wrong. We know Vegeta gets completely destroyed as a SsjB against Hit

Hit dashes towards Vegeta in high speeds:





Vegeta claims Hit is actually FAST. Hit is at SsjB Tier in terms of Speed since he acknowledged him as "fast" while in SsjB:



Vegeta then further comments the following:



"At this low level of Speed".

The claim here makes us conclude Vegeta is a lot faster than Hit Naturally.

Vegeta furthers to attack:



And hit notices it at the process (He can precieve SsjB Tier Movements and Combat Speeds):



Hit suddenly, out of the blue, manages to hit Vegeta:





Actually knocking Vegeta back:





Given that Vegeta acknowledges Hit's speed and seeing how Hit can perceive SsjB Tier speeds, this would logically suggest that Hit had time to to react to Base Goku's attack. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying Base Goku (Actually they made Goku out to be far above Vegeta, but it's not really the issue here. It can also be argued and interpreted either way, so it isn't a reliable thing to state) is Stronger or equal to SsjB Vegeta, but this however suggests that Base Goku is in the same plate of strength as a SsjB Tier as well (something absolutely not possible for a Buu Saga Tier). Hit was capable of Keeping up with SsjB Goku and even tank his hits:



So Logically he's supposed to have had his time to tank Base Goku, but scratching him is nowhere near possible whatsoever unless your strength is out there.

Goku is far faster than Vegeta. Goku requests Hit to use Time-Skip on him. But then the following series of events occur:

Goku challenges Hit speed-wise:



Goku is completely stopped; No prediction is occurring:



Goku has no chance of moving or predetermining an action which is yet to happen:



Goku breaks through Time-Skip and manages to Attack Hit, all referencing speed only:



Base Goku needed to Predict Hit's movements so that he could attack Hit. However, now Goku is fast enough to break through it with sheer speed

If you want to argue that it's resistance, then no. Goku references his speed directly:



Goku implies that he believes Hit has no chance against him Speed-wise. Hit later improves, enough that it allows his speed to stop from breaking through. Hit however didn't get stronger in a sense of Stats, but instead improved his Hax:



EVEN IF you want to argue it's resistance, that would still mean that SsjB Goku is far stronger than Vegeta would have hoped to reach since it didn't work with Vegeta (Vegeta wouldn't have needed to understand the Trick behind Time-Skip to counter hit if he was stronger, enough to resist him). Despite the fact that we know SsjB wears stamina down so easily, probably suggesting Vegeta's easy loss against Hit, this is completely wrong and illogical as Vegeta barely had any time to stay locked onto SsjB, unlike Goku who stayed in his SsjB form most of the time after figuring out how to counter Hit's technique through prediction in base form. SsjB transformation has a ridiculous multiplier between SsjG and SsjB which we witnessed later through the show, especially in the newest arc of Dragon Ball Super, the Tournament of Power. We won't however jump all the way there, since we still have things to argue.

That All would suggest Goku being far beyond Vegeta. And we already showed how even touching Hit would require your power to be in the same plate as SsjB Tier (we know that the SsjB Multiplier is far beyond regular Base Form, and that it is far beyond SsjG multiplier. The Super Saiyan God Multiplier increases your strength more than the difference between Base Goku BoG {Pre God Boost} and Ssj3 Vegito BoG {Goku implied that even Vegito is no match for Beerus, but he thought he can win as a SsjG}. Heck, we can even imply Failed-Ritual Ssj is even beyond a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito BoG because his power was agreed even by Vegeta to possibly be the SsjG {Proven wrong later on} Implying Failed-Ritual Ssj Goku is Stronger than Vegito BoG, but then again, The Ritual was supposed to push Goku beyond the boundaries of regular powers and into the God Realm either way, so Goku's SsjG Multiplier is far beyond normality), this would suggest Base Goku has far surpassed the old powers from BoG (Pre God Form) and his power from RoF which we already showcased to be beyond SsjG Goku BoG arc. Goku's Base Form far surpassed His SsjG Counterpart From the BoG Arc.

Now Let's Move On To The Filler Episode, Episode 42

Base Goku was capable of surviving Beerus's attacks and go against him. You might argue that Beerus was restricted right? I mean, Jaco states it, and Vegeta confirms it:







However, this doesn't mean Goku in base form is a bit above his Buu Saga counterpart, or at the very least far weaker than his BoG SsjG counterpart. All this means is that Beerus is restricted. However, there is a flaw which people fail to recognize. Let's look at the events from the start:

Beerus at first decides to end the battle as quick as possible with Goku so that he could get out of the costume he's wearing (he was quite skeptical about wearing it and questioned the idea of a God Of Destruction even wearing such a silly costume):



That would suggest that Beerus thinks he can easily bring Goku down. Remember what Beerus did against Ssj3 Goku in the BoG Arc? 2 shots, a flick and a push onto the shoulder was needed to knock Ssj3 Goku out, and a heavily suppressed Beerus at that. Beerus goes on to punch Base Goku, bearing In his mind that he needs to knock Goku out:



The Question here shifts into whether Beerus has the ability to knock Goku as easily as It was made out to be (bearing in mind that Goku should not be killed). Regardless whether Beerus had the costume or not, Beerus would have no trouble knocking Goku out for days if he was just a bit stronger than his Buu Saga counterpart, or even Buu Level. Goku evenly fights with a restricted suppressed Beerus who's decided to knock Goku out (Beerus doesn't seem to be quick enough to knock Goku, though this doesn't suggest anything of his main power):





At This point, Beerus's hand has become revealed and seen. So Beerus had the option to ultimately fuck Goku just as he did with Ssj3 Goku in BoG, if not worse, but Couldn't Easily achieve such a feat. He could have even knocked him as easily as he did when he almost killed SsjG Goku, but again, COULDN'T, which is an obvious occurrence, revealing how strong Goku is (He even survives direct attacks from Beerus for the sole purpose of knocking him out){Although Beerus even blocks some of Goku's attacks with one hand, it still doesn't change any of what we mentioned, since this would only mean Beerus is far beyond Goku}:









If you still doubt this, then look at the later scans. Beerus got so excited, he powers up further and laughs loudly out of Joy of fighting BASE GOKU:





You might argue that Beerus got that much excited because Whis stated that Beerus was itched to fight somebody when he was just a spectator looking at the fights occurring between Universe 6 and Universe 7. Does that mean normally he wouldn't enjoy himself?

WRONG

Look carefully at what Whis states:





Whis DIRECRLY references a surprise at Beerus's joyment (implying the rarity for Beerus to enjoy a fight, and a proof of this is that Beerus rarely even gets any challenge, but it depends on who gets it. For example, Beerus was utterly shocked with Goku's request of fighting Beerus, which according to Beerus it's been hundreds to millions of years since anyone ever told him such a thing, yet he still didn't enjoy himself against Goku until he went SsjG. Beerus shows Signs that he enjoys himself against Base Goku far more than when he fought SsjG despite him being itching to battle the SsjG, so the excitement of battle would be equated as between back then in BoG and when he saw the Tournament fights, yet he still enjoys himself more with Base Goku and Whis is even surprised that he's having fun ¿for some reason? despite fighting SsjG Goku earlier on in BoG arc). Whis then states that it's of no surprise that he got joyful in a battle LIKE THIS (a reference to Base Goku against Beerus, so it was apparent):





It becomes obvious that Goku in base is way too capable than anything that could ever exist before:



Beerus almost cries out of enjoyment and Goku then powers up EVEN MORE:





Even Vegito Ssj3 BoG arc cannot even make Beerus enjoy himself. Goku originally thought that Vegito cannot even beat Beerus, based on the performance Goku witnessed from Beerus while being suppressed:





It's already established that SsjG Goku BoG is Stronger Than a Hypothetical Ssj3 Vegito, and Goku even surpassed his limits as a Ssj. However Beerus was going to regret being so interested about this SsjG power and beyond until Goku even powers to further after pushing Beerus to space with a push (We already showed this before). This contradicts his reaction when he fought Base Goku and enjoyed himself so much so that he was laughing so loudly Goku even got weirded. This would suggest that Base Goku is stronger than Ssj3 Vegito.

In the next filler Arc, we see Copy Vegeta, who's exactly as strong as Vegeta, surviving Gotenks Ssj3 Causally in base form, and later, while suppressed, stomping him:





This doesn't show anything about base Goku or Vegeta being near SsjG, however it shows their utter improvement. But we do get something

Each arc seems to define the other. As we're moving on, we are directly being referenced to the same point, and this arc is no different, as it shows nothing contradicting what's been previously mentioned, and instead indirectly supporting it by proving Goku's and Vegeta's ridiculous power gains and improvements throughout the show (Goku matches Vegeta in Base and both of them are noted to be FAR stronger than before from the Universe 6 Arc by far). It's already too obvious now, but we'll continue.

In the future trunks arc, you might argue that Goku struggled with Trunks. I mean, Trunks who barely defeated Dabura!!!:



But whoever buys this, calm down, lmao. Because you're probably misunderstanding this entire situation. Here, it is ALREADY concluded that Trunks is FAR FAR stronger than when he fought Dabura, as multiple years has passed and I'll prove how he got suddenly this strong. Another thing is, Goku was suppressed which I'LL PROVE ALSO DOWN HERE.

It's true, Trunks's battle with Dabura was "intense" and "difficult" as described by himself:











When trunks first went on to fight black Goku, he was defeated with one blow, with ease, just that:



After a whole year, Trunks seem to be able to spar with black Goku proving the point that he became more powerful:



(Note: As I'll be showing later on that Goku was holding back against Trunks, it could just simply be a form of anger which allowed Trunks to fight against Goku black like that given that we witness a form of rage coming from him when He though Mai died due to Goku black. However, Goku Black was laughing and having his fun the entire battle so the point stays relevant anyways)

Beerus Even credits Trunks enough to call him decent and a good fighter based on how he matched Ssj2 Goku (who was suppressed) {Though this is not much, it does show that Trunks got stronger}:

[/spoiler]

You just posted your tired extremely long list of pictures and your interpretation that you have posted a million times without actually refuting anything I said. Almost everything you said in there fits with the idea that SSJ post-God~SSG BoG. Most of the post is disputing the idea that they Goku got weaker. OBVIOUSLY HE DIDN'T GET WEAKER. After BoG Goku's regular Super Saiyan was far beyond his SSG form from BoG, any comment about being stronger is obviously referring from an equivalent form. Goku's SSJ during Whis's training>>SSJ Goku during BoG. This much is obviously very clear. But nothing ever suggests that their base forms had surpassed SSG, only their SSJ forms.

Also, can you please stop triple posting and more? You do this all the time and it clogs up the threads with just your posts. Just edit it onto one post and delete the others.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

You just posted your tired extremely long list of pictures and your interpretation that you have posted a million times without actually refuting anything I said.

Sadly it does refute your points since this contributes to Goku's improvements of Power. The burden of proof is on you to debunk it. You say it doesn't debunk you without reading a shred of it which is more than amusing to be honest. It disproves your points easily. If you want to refute me, then refute this.

Almost everything you said in there fits with the idea that SSJ post-God~SSG BoG.

Almost everything except the first part fits with the idea that Base Goku post BoG > SsjG Goku BoG. This proves that you didn't read the post and rather just read a sentence or something at the very start of the argument.

Most of the post is disputing the idea that they Goku got weaker. OBVIOUSLY HE DIDN'T GET WEAKER. After BoG Goku's regular Super Saiyan was far beyond his SSG form from BoG, any comment about being stronger is obviously referring from an equivalent form. Goku's SSJ during Whis's training>>SSJ Goku during BoG. This much is obviously very clear. But nothing ever suggests that their base forms had surpassed SSG, only their SSJ forms.

Goku never got weaker and in fact it's quite the opposite of the matter as he is shown to be continuously getting stronger and even base form is. Ironically you say that this post says nothing about base but this just proves how much you are blatant here, you ignored the entire refute and then say it doesn't contribute to anything. If you want to show me why it doesn't, then please argue it. You're absolutely arguing nothing here. It's like you're telling me to believe what you say by default. Goku's base form has been factually stated and shown to be above his SsjG Goku BoG counterpart. That much is covered along the entire 100,000+ post with quality arguments. I am yet to see a refute for it, otherwise your argument holds no relevance here at all

Also, can you please stop triple posting and more? You do this all the time and it clogs up the threads with just your posts. Just edit it onto one post and delete the others.

The top limit of posting on Kanzenshuu is 60,000 Characters, so I needed to post 2 replies. The third reply was an accident.

[PFM18]

You just posted your tired extremely long list of pictures and your interpretation that you have posted a million times without actually refuting anything I said.

Sadly it does refute your points since this contributes to Goku's improvements of Power. The burden of proof is on you to debunk it. You say it doesn't debunk you without reading a shred of it which is more than amusing to be honest. It disproves your points easily. If you want to refute me, then refute this.

Almost everything you said in there fits with the idea that SSJ post-God~SSG BoG.

Almost everything except the first part fits with the idea that Base Goku post BoG > SsjG Goku BoG. This proves that you didn't read the post and rather just read a sentence or something at the very start of the argument.

Most of the post is disputing the idea that they Goku got weaker. OBVIOUSLY HE DIDN'T GET WEAKER. After BoG Goku's regular Super Saiyan was far beyond his SSG form from BoG, any comment about being stronger is obviously referring from an equivalent form. Goku's SSJ during Whis's training>>SSJ Goku during BoG. This much is obviously very clear. But nothing ever suggests that their base forms had surpassed SSG, only their SSJ forms.

Goku never got weaker and in fact it's quite the opposite of the matter as he is shown to be continuously getting stronger and even base form is. Ironically you say that this post says nothing about base but this just proves how much you are blatant here, you ignored the entire refute and then say it doesn't contribute to anything. If you want to show me why it doesn't, then please argue it. You're absolutely arguing nothing here. It's like you're telling me to believe what you say by default. Goku's base form has been factually stated and shown to be above his SsjG Goku BoG counterpart. That much is covered along the entire 100,000+ post with quality arguments. I am yet to see a refute for it, otherwise your argument holds no relevance here at all

Also, can you please stop triple posting and more? You do this all the time and it clogs up the threads with just your posts. Just edit it onto one post and delete the others.

The top limit of posting on Kanzenshuu is 60,000 Characters, so I needed to post 2 replies. The third reply was an accident.

I read most of it.

Yes, I know that most of it fits with the idea that Base Goku post BoG > SsjG Goku BoG but it ALSO fits with the idea that SSJ post BoG>SSG Goku BoG. Goku received the biggest boost he ever received in the franchise when he infused the SSG power within himself. I agree with this premise. Your entire post illustrates this premise. But again, it still fits with my viewpoint save for a view select points. I debunked this idea in my original response to you.

Again, OBVIOUSLY GOKU GOT STRONGER. Your response to me makes absolutely no sense. I didn't say that Goku got weaker and yet your post is arguing on and on about how he didn't get weaker. Your entire "spoiler" post was arguing on and on about how Goku got weaker. It is baffling to me that this is the response you came up with. I say in all caps that Goku didn't get weaker and yet the first sentence in your post is "Goku never got weaker and in fact it's quite the opposite" Like YES I KNOW THAT. Goku's SSJ form continued to get stronger after BoG. Like I said before, Whis's training SSJ Goku>>>BoG SSJ Goku. Your post goes on and on about Goku got stronger but only rarely addresses specifically the idea that Base Goku>SSG Goku.

If Base Goku ROF>SSG then the narrator would have stated it when Goku powered up in base NOT when he went SSB.
If Base Goku BoG>SSG Goku BoG then Goku would have gotten a massive power up after he lost the SSG power and went to SSJ. instead, he starts out being equal to SSG and then surpasses it.
If Base Goku>SSG Goku then it would go against authorial intent and the entire premise of the BoG arc. Beerus would have to be retarded for the U6 arc to make sense with your interpretation. If Base>SSG then Beerus could have just gone to U6 and gotten a better fight than he did against SSG Goku and the looking for a SSG would be pointless. Base Cabba and Final Form Frost were stronger or equal to the Base Saiyans but weaker than their SSJ forms. This fits with the idea that SSJ~SSG and doesn't make Beerus a complete idiot, because they would still fall far below SSG Goku from BoG and by extension, Goku's current regular SSJ form and his SSJ form he used against Beerus. To say Base Goku>SSG clearly goes against authorial intent.
If Base Goku>SSG Goku then you would need a retcon to rationalize it. Because Goku uses SSJ 1-3 after ROF and the ROF movie and promotional material that stated Base Goku>SSG also implied that whenever he goes SSJ it is reflected as SSB. However, Goku still uses the other SSJ transformations

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ssj Grade 3 Trunks Cell Saga vs Full Power Perfect Cell (Trunks has no speed issue)

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I read most of it.

Yes, I know that most of it fits with the idea that Base Goku post BoG > SsjG Goku BoG but it ALSO fits with the idea that SSJ post BoG>SSG Goku BoG.

Look bud, when I say Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG, I'm also implying that Ssj Goku > BoG SsjG Goku lmao. I never did disagree on that part. It contributes to both factors but it centres around base Goku, for the most part.

Goku received the biggest boost he ever received in the franchise when he infused the SSG power within himself. I agree with this premise. Your entire post illustrates this premise. But again, it still fits with my viewpoint save for a view select points. I debunked this idea in my original response to you.

Ugh, I'll just debunk it again:

1. Because When Beerus tells Goku that he infused the SSG power within himself, Goku was in his Super Saiyan form and at first only did about as good as he did as a SSG. If his base was on par with SSG, going Super Saiyan would make him dramatically stronger than he was as a SSG.

I have yet to see how that debunks me. Nothing of that shows base > SsjG to be wrong. In fact my post already coveres that lot. However Goku's Base form started surpassing that Super Saiyan power over all. All you did here is affirming Ssj Goku > SsjG Goku BoG, which I gotta say to.... congrats

2. The narrator states that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God not when he was in base against Freeza, but when he turns SSB for the first time in DBS. This contradicts the idea of this "Saiyan Beyond God" stuff. If he had actually surpassed SSG in base, the narrator would have stated it then.

I already debunked this in my post which I'll post again for you

When Krillin and Gohan sense Base Goku and Final Form Frieza fighting, Krillin implies that this battle (and in accordance to Gohan's reference to Ki), is more intense and holds MORE POWER than when Goku went against Beerus:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Basically, Krillin's and Gohan's fear and feel of the energies and intensity of the fight that's occurring surpasses that of Goku when he fought Beerus.

Do Note that, the Z Fighters sensed Goku's battle with Beerus when revered back to Ssj, got stronger by far, and his base form when he busted the sphere of Destruction

Proof of them sensing Goku in general after reverting back from SsjG (his Regular forms have no God Ki, enabling normal beings to sense his power):

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

You may argue that the narrator said Goku only surpassed SsjG when he went SsjB:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Wrong. This only implies that Goku learned to transform into a Stronger transformation. This is herm's translation and the interpretation based the translation:

Narrator: "In order to surpass the powered up Freeza, Goku mutated into a form that exceeded even Super Saiyan God."

Significance: As chapter 5 indicated a few months ago, Goku's blue form is a step up from Super Saiyan God. Also, another instance of "mutation" being used to describe a transformation.

Also, Krillin implies that Goku surpassed SsjG Transformation-Wise not power wise from BoG, as it also wouldn't make sense considering they can't even sense God Ki, which Gohan outrightly states in the following:

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

This is supported by how King Kai references the fact that Goku can now go SsjG without the ritual, which means the point wasn't about power, but was about transformation-wise:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Goku Even confirms it's a form that surpasses a SsjG (aside from the narrator from the next episode, meaning the narrator interpreted it that way), and not stating that it's a form which allows him to "surpass his power from when he went SsjG". This correlates with the previous references about it being only transformation-wise:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

According to Whis, Goku and Vegeta reached a level where they're barely capable of sensing God Ki. This implies that there's a specific tier that you should top in order to get into the God Tier Zone:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You said you read most of it but that doesn't seem to be the case. Hopefully you did though.

3. If Goku's base was stronger than his SSG self, then the U6 Arc would have completely invalidated the BoG arc and Beerus would have to be completely retarded for it to make sense.Cabba, Frost, and Magetta were as strong or stronger than the Base Saiyans but weaker than their SSJ forms. (without including Cabba's SSJ transformation that he achieved during the tournament.) Why would Beerus have this prophecy of a SSG that could give him a fun fight, if he could have just gone to U6 and fought any of the 3 aforementioned characters and gotten atleast as good of a fight. That makes absolutely no sense.

It makes the most sense. Beerus's prophecy is not linked to the medium of other universes, that would be contradictory to his proposition. By your logic Beerus should've gone To universe 11 to fight Jiren but because he didn't Jiren isn't God tier I covered this already on my post and even showed Whis saying that the people outside of universe 7 mostly are far more powerful than what Goku and Vegeta could imagine meaning having lots of God Tier characters is very fine. Beerus for billions of years hasn't found someone to entertain him so despite Goku SsjG being less than 1% of his power, he still was entertained. He even felt curious while fighting Ssj3 Goku and Whis said it's worth the watch and eating the food he got enstored. The U6 arc makes this even more possible of a case which I covered yet again in my long post

4. If DBS followed the movies where Base Goku>SSG Goku, then using SSJ 1-3 would be impossible

Wrong. That's assuming the Saiyan beyond God theory exists or that God Ki exists in base. I already covered that in my post but why not, lemme say it again simpler. In the movies Goku's base form has God Ki flowimg through him which disables anyone from sensing his Ki, and thus Ssj + God Ki = SsjGSsj. However this issue has been disregarded in Super where God Ki does not exist in base forms of the Saiyans. Everyone could sense Base Goku and Ssj Goku. God forms are the only forms which has God Ki. This has been affirmed ever since RoF arc and the Mini hit arc supports it where Piccolo only comments about not being able to sense SsjB Goku due to God Ki yet they sensed base form.

Again, OBVIOUSLY GOKU GOT STRONGER. Your response to me makes absolutely no sense. I didn't say that Goku got weaker and yet your post is arguing on and on about how he didn't get weaker. Your entire "spoiler" post was arguing on and on about how Goku got weaker.

NOWHERE in my post did I say Goku got weaker. That's a definitive accusation. You misunderstood my post which means you scimmed it rather than reading it fully. My Post argues that Goku Ssj got stronger and that IT'S DEBUNKING THE PEOPLE who say Goku got weaker. Please read well enough and understand the context before accusing me. I really hate it out of habit.

It is baffling to me that this is the response you came up with. I say in all caps that Goku didn't get weaker and yet the first sentence in your post is "Goku never got weaker and in fact it's quite the opposite" Like YES I KNOW THAT.

Because previous to the CAPS you said something about Goku getting weaker which contradicts the CAPS, so the CAPS didn't hold much relevance since I'm arguing Base > SsjG and the only way it could be argued otherwise is to say he got weaker somehow then in the ToP arc he regained the power through training which.... is ridiculous.

Goku's SSJ form continued to get stronger after BoG. Like I said before, Whis's training SSJ Goku>>>BoG SSJ Goku. Your post goes on and on about Goku got stronger but only rarely addresses specifically the idea that Base Goku>SSG Goku.

My Post basically addresses the general matter of the idea for both base and Ssj. Idk what this indicates

[PFM18]

Look bud, when I say Base Goku > SsjG Goku BoG, I'm also implying that Ssj Goku > BoG SsjG Goku lmao. I never did disagree on that part. It contributes to both factors but it centres around base Goku, for the most part.

NOWHERE in my post did I say Goku got weaker. That's a definitive accusation. You misunderstood my post which means you scimmed it rather than reading it fully. My Post argues that Goku Ssj got stronger and that IT'S DEBUNKING THE PEOPLE who say Goku got weaker. Please read well enough and understand the context before accusing me. I really hate it out of habit.

Are both examples of you apparently completely and totally misinterpreting what I said. You are apparently declining to actuallly read and comprehend what I am saying before you respond.

Krillin and Gohan did not in any way imply that Goku had gotten stronger than his SSG self. Krillin was just making a comment about being in more fear than when Goku fought Beerus. This is more of a reflection of knowing about Freeza as a character being evil and fearing him more than Beerus who was more mysterious.(Freeza did Kill Krillin after all.) There is nothing in what he said that even references power. Gohan is just saying Goku has tremendous energy. There's no comparison there.

I mean you could interpret the narrator referring to strictly the transformation itself and not the level of power itself but what I said also fits what he said. The point is, had Goku actually surpassed SSG in his base form, the narrator would have made a comment about it then.

I have no idea how your SS about Whis stating that they just reached a level of being able to sense a God is even relevant to this discussion. If anything, it debunks what you have been saying. Your interpretation holds that Goku would be 50x stronger if his Base surpassed SSG and not SSJ, and for this 50x difference still only be a tree stump to Beerus's castle doesn't make sense.

It makes the most sense. Beerus's prophecy is not linked to the medium of other universes, that would be contradictory to his proposition. By your logic Beerus should've gone To universe 11 to fight Jiren but because he didn't Jiren isn't God tier I covered this already on my post and even showed Whis saying that the people outside of universe 7 mostly are far more powerful than what Goku and Vegeta could imagine meaning having lots of God Tier characters is very fine. Beerus for billions of years hasn't found someone to entertain him so despite Goku SsjG being less than 1% of his power, he still was entertained. He even felt curious while fighting Ssj3 Goku and Whis said it's worth the watch and eating the food he got enstored. The U6 arc makes this even more possible of a case which I covered yet again in my long post

No, you applying what I said to Beerus meeting Jiren holds no water. Universe 6 is Beerus's twin universe where his brother resides. The Super Dragon Balls are shared within this twin universe pair and so Champa goes there to Universe 7 to get the Super Dragon Balls. Unless Beerus never in the millions of years ever had any interest to collect the SDB's then he would have become familiar with Universe 6 to go there and find them. Not to mention his brother resides in that universe. If Champa could travel as easily to other universes outside the pair, then he would have.(say Universe 11 for example.) Since his wish would involve switching the Earths he wouldn't want to bother going to Beeru's's Universe because Beerus would find out and get pissed. Beerus is familiar with his twin Universe, but not Universes like Universe 11.

Wrong. That's assuming the Saiyan beyond God theory exists or that God Ki exists in base. I already covered that in my post but why not, lemme say it again simpler. In the movies Goku's base form has God Ki flowimg through him which disables anyone from sensing his Ki, and thus Ssj + God Ki = SsjGSsj. However this issue has been disregarded in Super where God Ki does not exist in base forms of the Saiyans. Everyone could sense Base Goku and Ssj Goku. God forms are the only forms which has God Ki. This has been affirmed ever since RoF arc and the Mini hit arc supports it where Piccolo only comments about not being able to sense SsjB Goku due to God Ki yet they sensed base form.

Obviously God Ki does not exist in base and that theory does not operate under that assumption. Most people are aware base doesn't have God Ki because the characteers are never shown to be unable to sense Goku/Vegeta in base. Goku's base form in the movie doesn't even make any mention of God Ki flowing through him. the idea that only the God forms have God Ki was never disputed. But the idea of Goku/Vegeta having power that exceeds SSG, was established in the movies and promotional material. The movies/promotional material also showed that they now only had two forms: SBG and SSB. One with God Ki and the other not.(Hence why in the movie they make comments about not being able to sense Goku's Ki only when he goes SSB.) However, in DBS this idea was retconned because the other SSJ forms can be used and they didn't make an effort to make it clear that Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG like they did in the movies. On the contrary, they say that he only surpasses SSG when he goes SSB.

I never said that Goku got weaker, I don't know why you keep saying that. Goku obviously got a lot stronger from BoG -> ROF. I even illustrate my view on Goku's growth in my post on Neoseekers.(Which had the most likes on the entire Neoseekers website the day it was posted.)

[spoiler]After I briefly discussed the numbers that I have for DBS characters and how they compare to GT characters, I would like to go into detail and see if anybody else is interested. Most of these sort of conversations are centralized around where the Base Saiyans stand in the grand scheme of things because they are often used to scale other characters. I will focus on the power of the Base Saiyans and their progress for this reason. However, I will need to use other characters to scale them.

First, I am starting off with the Buu saga to give an idea of how things evolve. For the sake of simplicity and readability,(I won't have 10 '0's at the end of everything) I will be using SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga as a 1.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 1
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks: 8 ##because SSJ1 Gotenks was said to be able to defeat Buu and using the SEG multipliers
Super Buu: 7 ##since Gotenks had a slight edge and Goku wouldn't even attempt to fight this Buu.
Ultimate Gohan: 12 ##dominated Buu and is significantly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
Buuhan: 19 ##just adding the values for Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu.
Base Vegetto: 25 ##doesn't give a very good idea of where Base Vegetto stands in the manga but he dominates Buuhan in the anime.
Super Vegetto:1250
Super Saiyan 3 Vegetto: 10,000

Now this is where things start to come into view in Super. For 3 reasons, I have determined that SSG Goku >> SSJ3 Vegetto by a significant amount:
1. Goku says that fusion wouldn't work against the heavily suppressed Beerus on King Kai's planet.
2. Goku, upon achieving Super Saiyan god says that he didn't even know that a level of power like that could even exist.
3. The same Beerus that Goku said fusion wasn't enough for, had to power up further in order to fight evenly with SSG Goku

All of this assuming that Goku knows that he could go SSJ3 as Vegetto and knew where that power would stand. I think that is a fair assumption.

So where I see things standing looks like this:

Super Saiyan God Goku: 20,000
Super Saiyan Goku(post ritual): 22,000
Base Goku: 440

Since there was implied to be a pretty large gap between SSG Goku and SSJ3 Vegetto, I thought a 2x difference would be appropriate. Upon the SSG ritual expiring, Goku doensn't even notice and continues fighting. He doesn't notice that he is a normal SSJ until Beerus points it out to him. At this point he says that that is weird because he doesn't feel any weaker. Beerus explains that he must have infused the power within himself.(This is when he is in his SSJ form.)Afterwards he keeps fighting and eventually outperforms what he did as a SSG and the episode title outright says that he surpassed it. so a this point SSG Goku~SSJ Goku(post ritual). I do not subscribe to the notion that Goku's base was stronger than SSG from that point forward.

Then, Goku and Vegeta have intense training with Whis and gain a significant amount of power. When GOku shows up then he says that Vegeta has surpassed him and that his ki is unrecognizable from what it was before. Whis teaches them about god ki, and how to control their ki. So I think that it is fair to say that there was a large increase and another 2x increase would be appropriate:

ROF Base Goku: 880

This unbelievably powerful Goku corrobates with the fact that Freeza's first form now dominates everybody but he goes into his Final Form and still can't beat Base Goku.(since on Namek First Form->Final Form(50%) yielded a 113x boost from 530k->60M before he buffed up.) It stands to reason that this first form freeza got over a hundred times stronger upon going into his Final Form and he still lost to Goku.

Now, following the shenanigans of ROF, Goku and Vegeta train for 3 years in the ROSAT. Vegeta comments that they were approaching their limit and implied that their power increase was lower than expected and not a particularly dramatic increase. For this reason, I think an estimation of a 25% increase in power seems reasonable.

Base Goku U6 tournament: 1100

Disregarding the specifics that follow this, we know for certain that from U6 tourny->post Zamasu Arc, GOku got atleast 10x stronger because he was able to break Hit's time dimension without using Kaioken this time.(This being a stronger Hit mind you.) We can conclude that atleast a 10x increase was attained here.

Base Goku post-Zamasu Arc: 11,000

Goku briefly trains with Whis before the tournament of power starts. This was brief and not extremely intense so I believe it is fair to say that he got stronger but not to a significant extent. I estimate it to be about a 10% boost.

ToP Base Goku: 12,100

Making Goku over 12,000x stronger than his Buu arc SSJ3 self. This may seem by a lot but it is standard practice for this series. the difference between Buu arc and ToP arc Goku is astronomical but so is the difference between Goku in the Piccolo Jr arc compared to the Goku in the Buu Arc.

Now, as far as where Goku stands in his maximum output, we would have to know what the multiplier for Super Saiyan Blue is. We do not, so I will put together some headcanon based on what we know.

Since the wording of the form implies, it is somebody who has the power of a Super Saiyan God who further goes Super Saiyan. And, we can see based on GOku's fight with Kefla that it seemed like it was around a SSJ type boost from the previouos transformations he had. He went from being around equal to her in Base to needing Kaioken to compete with her when she goes Kaioken, so I think it is fair to say that the difference between SSG and SSB is large, but less than 50x. Based on this, I think SSB is 50x stronger than Goku's current Super Saiyan. So using this, where the scale is Buu arc SSJ3 Goku as a 1, I believe that:

ToP SSB Goku: roughly 30 Million

Before people bring up the whole premise that Base Goku>SSG, I think this was the case in the movies but not in DBS. Why?

1. Because When Beerus tells Goku that he infused the SSG power within himself, Goku was in his Super Saiyan form and at first only did about as good as he did as a SSG. If his base was on par with SSG, going Super Saiyan would make him dramatically stronger than he was as a SSG.
2. The narrator states that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God not when he was in base against Freeza, but when he turns SSB for the first time in DBS. This contradicts the idea of this "Saiyan Beyond God" stuff.
3. Narratively, it had to be changed. If Goku's base was stronger than his SSG form, then anybody who could compete with his Base form would also be SSG level. This would completely undermine the idea of Beerus wanting to find a rival in a SSG, because he could just go and fight any of Frost, Cabba or Magetta if that was the case. Or anybody in the entire series who competed with Base Goku. The premise of Beerus wanting a rival that is a SSG when people as strong as SSG are readily available would make no sense. They had to change the Base Goku>SSG thing once DBS rolled around and it wasn't just a couple movies. They had to have the entire rest of the series in mind.[/spoiler]

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I see you didn't quote me on purpose. I didn't see this at all

Are both examples of you apparently completely and totally misinterpreting what I said. You are apparently declining to actuallly read and comprehend what I am saying before you respond.

I haven't misinterpreted anything of what you said at all. Nothing of what you said has been differently interpreted by me. You're the one who's declining to read the material that completely debunks you which is infront of you, not me. It sounds ironic how the person you're describing ends up being you. I tried to keep this cool and friendly on that comment but I guess you can't handle it

Krillin and Gohan did not in any way imply that Goku had gotten stronger than his SSG self. Krillin was just making a comment about being in more fear than when Goku fought Beerus. This is more of a reflection of knowing about Freeza as a character being evil and fearing him more than Beerus who was more mysterious.(Freeza did Kill Krillin after all.) There is nothing in what he said that even references power. Gohan is just saying Goku has tremendous energy. There's no comparison there.

Nice strawman. The statements and the implications behind them are quite clear. You're only looking at statements without context at all which is your downfall:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Gohan AND Krillin comment on the Ki radiating from both Goku and Frieza and they conclude that the Ki from Goku and Frieza is even more fearsome than the Ki released by Ssj Goku when he fought Beerus. This is an obvious clear indication that Base Goku vs Frieza > Ssj Goku vs Beerus and there's absolutely no arguing it unless you want to be a strawman and start being blatant while snubbing whatever feels like supporting you (ironically nothing does).

I mean you could interpret the narrator referring to strictly the transformation itself and not the level of power itself but what I said also fits what he said. The point is, had Goku actually surpassed SSG in his base form, the narrator would have made a comment about it then.

The Narrator doesn't need to mention everything because the narrator's points aren't concrete. Narrator also said that Beerus full power equals SsjG Goku so that's a moot point. Not just interpretation, the narrator IS referring to The transformation rather than anything if you consider the CONTEXT. Everything suggests that Base Goku surpassed his previous Ssj form. Since you still haven't covered anything from my post, all your arguments aren't relevant in the slightest.

I have no idea how your SS about Whis stating that they just reached a level of being able to sense a God is even relevant to this discussion. If anything, it debunks what you have been saying. Your interpretation holds that Goku would be 50x stronger if his Base surpassed SSG and not SSJ, and for this 50x difference still only be a tree stump to Beerus's castle doesn't make sense.

You obviously didn't read anything yet you said you read it. What kind of utter lie is this? I'll repost what I said because you're obviously dragging it:

Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases (Basically whis states that Goku and Vegeta should become stronger without going Super Saiyans). However, that's not actually the point of this statement. The term "Super Saiyan" can refer to all Super Saiyan forms, and this is exactly what Whis is referring to, reaffirming what Akira Toriyama stated in Saiko Jump's June 2014 Issue about Goku and Vegeta no longer resorting to going Ssj2 or Ssj3, and instead focus on mastering their base and regular Super Saiyan form (This was completely changed in later arcs, however based on the Tournament of Power, it can be concluded Goku mastered Ssj2, though not Ssj3 due to the Stamina Issues still being factored). Another point Whis implies is how training in their bases would be much more effective than in Super Saiyans, as Both Goku and Vegeta realize they should train in their bases rather than a Super Saiyan, otherwise they wouldn't know the realm of power that lies ahead, supported by the fact that Both Vegeta and Goku never once went Super Saiyan despite Whis never dismissing the idea of transforming:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

So if anything, this supports me in many ways, as it also correlates with the previous scans which we used to prove our point. This rule of not transforming into more than a regular Super Saiyan has been obeyed and followed till the Universe 6 Arc, until it was completely ignored during the Future Trunks Arc.

If you can't prove your point even at this point then this is doing nothing but dragging it until I get bored of it and then you'll start thinking that you won. That's Ad nauseam right here.

No, you applying what I said to Beerus meeting Jiren holds no water. Universe 6 is Beerus's twin universe where his brother resides.

Just how much can you try to resist something that debunks you There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that says Beerus knows about the fighters from universe 6. In fact, Beerus didn't even know earth existed there, much less the type of fighters there. Kaioshins didn't even know the existence of Metal fighters from universe 7, and Beerus has failed to realize many things about Universe 6. Your argument holds absolutely no value here AT ALL. You cherrypicked the twin universes concept and said it supports you? That's Occam's Razor, you provided shit evidence to support a claim.

The Super Dragon Balls are shared within this twin universe pair and so Champa goes there to Universe 7 to get the Super Dragon Balls. Unless Beerus never in the millions of years ever had any interest to collect the SDB's then he would have become familiar with Universe 6 to go there and find them.

Beerus didn't even know about the Super Dragon Balls so your point is absolutely horseshit here. Beerus didn't even know about the Balls, and it's UTTER SPECULATION to say that Beerus in million years went to Universe 6. In fact, Beerus was never offered a challenge since billions of years ACCORDING to him, so it all goes down vice versa of what you said, which makes this all the more ironic

Not to mention his brother resides in that universe. If Champa could travel as easily to other universes outside the pair, then he would have.(say Universe 11 for example.) Since his wish would involve switching the Earths he wouldn't want to bother going to Beeru's's Universe because Beerus would find out and get pissed. Beerus is familiar with his twin Universe, but not Universes like Universe 11.

What kind of weaksauce argument is this? This is a bit of Red Herring since these are completely different situations that don't correlate, given that Beerus knowing about Universe 6 has nothing to do with the Universe 6 tournament since that's after SsjG Goku fought Beerus. Your argument seems to be barely pulled by strings as means to keep yourself relevant even after mentioning irrelevant material. You have to prove that he's familiar with universe 6, if you fail to show that, then your argument falls apart like the jeopardized argument it is.

But the idea of Goku/Vegeta having power that exceeds SSG, was established in the movies and promotional material. The movies/promotional material also showed that they now only had two forms: SBG and SSB. One with God Ki and the other not.(Hence why in the movie they make comments about not being able to sense Goku's Ki only when he goes SSB.) However, in DBS this idea was retconned because the other SSJ forms can be used and they didn't make an effort to make it clear that Base Goku ROF>SSG Goku BoG like they did in the movies. On the contrary, they say that he only surpasses SSG when he goes SSB.

This heavily debunks you. That idea was as you said only presented in the movies where Goku's Super Saiyan forms are just Regular but God Ki is added to them which makes the changes altogether. Since this issue has been extinct, The return of Ssj forms wouldn't contradict Base Goku > SsjG Goku given that Base Goku has no God Ki. This overthrows your argument which is a desperate mean of trying to stay relevant with your wrong justification. "On the contrary" no they didn't. You still haven't provided any evidence to why that's right so your argument yet again crumbles. Context says it was in relation to transformation and not power so this destroys your claim.

I never said that Goku got weaker, I don't know why you keep saying that. Goku obviously got a lot stronger from BoG -> ROF. I even illustrate my view on Goku's growth in my post on Neoseekers.(Which had the most likes on the entire Neoseekers website the day it was posted.)

Nice ad populum. Just because most people believed you doesn't mean you're right. I still see your point and I already told you that but you kept dismissing that point for some reason. You said Ssj Goku > SsjG BoG and I agree. You disagree with Base, but I agree. ToP arc and the previous arcs prove this. You're assumption goes that Goku didn't get signiticantly stronger yet evidence suggests otherwise which I already covered in my post

[supercat]

Both sides of the argument have valid points and either of these speculations would work quite well in my opinion. Both of these notions sound a whole lot better than something as silly as Base Goku being Buu saga level or some other nonsense akin to that.

[PFM18]

I haven't misinterpreted anything of what you said at all. Nothing of what you said has been differently interpreted by me. You're the one who's declining to read the material that completely debunks you which is infront of you, not me. It sounds ironic how the person you're describing ends up being you. I tried to keep this cool and friendly on that comment but I guess you can't handle it

Oh so now you are telling me what my point is? LMAO wow. Again, you are just stating your interpretation of the events that may or may not be horrendously misguided. There's nothing "debunking" my argument. I am, nor is anybody else, going to read the entire thing. That is just way too damn long and filled with an enormous collection of weak points. (For example, your argument about Gohan just making a comment about "tremendous energy" is just laughable.)

Gohan AND Krillin comment on the Ki radiating from both Goku and Frieza and they conclude that the Ki from Goku and Frieza is even more fearsome than the Ki released by Ssj Goku when he fought Beerus. This is an obvious clear indication that Base Goku vs Frieza > Ssj Goku vs Beerus and there's absolutely no arguing it unless you want to be a strawman and start being blatant while snubbing whatever feels like supporting you (ironically nothing does).

Again, neither of them make any comment about a comparison of ki to previous fights. The fact that this time you highlight "Unlike Beerus" does not change anything. It does not refernce Ki. Krillin is comparing the fear that he felt when Beerus was around to the fear he felt when Freeza was there in that moment. he knows Freeza is pure evil. He knew nothing of Beerus. Freeza killed him. Naturally he will be more terrified when Freeza shows up than when some stranger shows up. This exposition establishes tension and gives the idea of more tension than during the Beerus fight. It is baffling to me that you somehow think this is a reference to ki. Gohan, again, just comments that they have tremendous energy. So comparison is made.

The fact that you say "There's absolutely no arguing it" just shows how stubborn you are and how you are spewing your opinion as "proof." Yes, obviously there is arguing it, you can't just declare that there isn't.

The Narrator doesn't need to mention everything because the narrator's points aren't concrete. Narrator also said that Beerus full power equals SsjG Goku so that's a moot point. Not just interpretation, the narrator IS referring to The transformation rather than anything if you consider the CONTEXT. Everything suggests that Base Goku surpassed his previous Ssj form. Since you still haven't covered anything from my post, all your arguments aren't relevant in the slightest.

Again, this is left to the viewer's interpretation and your interpretation isn't automatically right. Even if you consider the context it doesn't automatically point to your interpretation. The story would have made an effort to make it clear that Goku had surpassed his SSG self in BASE during ROF if that was actually the case. It is not the case, so the narrator comments that he surpassed SSG when he goes SSB.(He also would have surpassed SSG if he went regular SSJ in that instance.)

You could be right, but I don't recall the narrator commenting on Beerus's full-power.

Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases (Basically whis states that Goku and Vegeta should become stronger without going Super Saiyans). However, that's not actually the point of this statement. The term "Super Saiyan" can refer to all Super Saiyan forms, and this is exactly what Whis is referring to, reaffirming what Akira Toriyama stated in Saiko Jump's June 2014 Issue about Goku and Vegeta no longer resorting to going Ssj2 or Ssj3, and instead focus on mastering their base and regular Super Saiyan form (This was completely changed in later arcs, however based on the Tournament of Power, it can be concluded Goku mastered Ssj2, though not Ssj3 due to the Stamina Issues still being factored). Another point Whis implies is how training in their bases would be much more effective than in Super Saiyans, as Both Goku and Vegeta realize they should train in their bases rather than a Super Saiyan, otherwise they wouldn't know the realm of power that lies ahead, supported by the fact that Both Vegeta and Goku never once went Super Saiyan despite Whis never dismissing the idea of transforming:

This is a perfect example of you presenting your opinion as proof. You say "Some people might start using what Whis said to suggest that only Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are above SsjG and not their bases" and then don't say anything concrete or objective regarding that statement. You just say that isn't the point and don't back it up with anything that holds any water. Training in their base form is more effective than training as Super Saiyans. Yes. So what? They established that it is just the best form of training. It does not refute anything of the statement you are trying to dispute. Then you claim Goku/Vegeta never went SSJ during this training when you have nothing to support it. Who's to say they didn't train in SSJ only to realize that Base is more effective to train in. If anything, this statement implies my previous statement is the case.

So if anything, this supports me in many ways, as it also correlates with the previous scans which we used to prove our point. This rule of not transforming into more than a regular Super Saiyan has been obeyed and followed till the Universe 6 Arc, until it was completely ignored during the Future Trunks Arc.

I mean this "rule" was completely ignored in the Universe 6 Arc. They fought it the weakest form they thought was needed, if they needed SSJ, they went SSJ.

Base Frost during this time was implied to be stronger than Base Goku, and yet Piccolo holds his own against him. You mean to tell me U6 Piccolo is stronger than SSG Goku even though he later got overpowered by Ultimate Gohan? Really?

This heavily debunks you. That idea was as you said only presented in the movies where Goku's Super Saiyan forms are just Regular but God Ki is added to them which makes the changes altogether. Since this issue has been extinct, The return of Ssj forms wouldn't contradict Base Goku > SsjG Goku given that Base Goku has no God Ki. This overthrows your argument which is a desperate mean of trying to stay relevant with your wrong justification. "On the contrary" no they didn't. You still haven't provided any evidence to why that's right so your argument yet again crumbles. Context says it was in relation to transformation and not power so this destroys your claim.

Translation: "This debunks you because I say so."

The idea in the movies was that they had the power of a SSG in their base forms, not necessarily God Ki, then they go SSJ. This was there only two forms. This premise of a base that surpasses SSG was retconned hence why the rest of the forms still exist. Even in the movies nothing implied that their base was using God Ki because nobody ever comments on not being able to sense Goku in his base. They COULD sense his base.

The very premise that normal SSJ forms still exist shows that the movies were retconned and the idea of Saiyan Beyond God that surpasses Super Saiyan God by extension were also retconned. That was a movies only thing.

Both sides of the argument have valid points and either of these speculations would work quite well in my opinion. Both of these notions sound a whole lot better than something as silly as Base Goku being Buu saga level or some other nonsense akin to that.

Yeah it is pretty baffling to me that people think that current Base Goku couldn't one shot all of DBZ. I mean do they dispute that all the characters at the end of DBZ can one shot characters at the end of ODB? No, they don't and it doesn't make any sense. There is a gigantic pile of evidence that DB Magnum brings up that shows that Base Goku is stronger than anything in DBZ.( I think he misinterpeted a lof of these things to conclude Base>SSG but overall he makes good points supporting the extremely powerful Base Goku that we see in the ToP.)

[supercat]

Both sides of the argument have valid points and either of these speculations would work quite well in my opinion. Both of these notions sound a whole lot better than something as silly as Base Goku being Buu saga level or some other nonsense akin to that.

Yeah it is pretty baffling to me that people think that current Base Goku couldn't one shot all of DBZ. I mean do they dispute that all the characters at the end of DBZ can one shot characters at the end of ODB? No, they don't and it doesn't make any sense. There is a gigantic pile of evidence that DB Magnum brings up that shows that Base Goku is stronger than anything in DBZ.( I think he misinterpeted a lof of these things to conclude Base>SSG but overall he makes good points supporting the extremely powerful Base Goku that we see in the ToP.)

I really feel like it has to do with some people not wanting to put certain characters like Piccolo, Android 18, and the Universe 6 Saiyans above Buu. It'd be silly if these side characters weren't able to wreck Buuhan, considering how powerful everyone has gotten and how much the story has progressed. I also don't go with the whole everyone getting this strong cheapens previous battles, trainings, or whatever excuse; the series had always introduced new characters that far outclassed previous benchmarks while powering up existing ones. Barring Krillin and Tien, I honestly can't imagine how even weaker characters like Piccolo, Android 18, and Caulifla wouldn't destroy Buu with the utmost ease.

[Kaboom]

This isn't the place to have this type of drawn-out, stubborn, and exhausting back-and-forth conversation. If you guys feel there's any worthwhile discussion still to be had, then make a new thread about the subject. If not, then please simply drop it and allow this topic to get back on course.

[PFM18]

This isn't the place to have this type of drawn-out, stubborn, and exhausting back-and-forth conversation. If you guys feel there's any worthwhile discussion still to be had, then make a new thread about the subject. If not, then please simply drop it and allow this topic to get back on course.

Yeah my bad. Not the place for that

[Zamasu55]

Piccolo takes it.

Facepalm.

That's not really making the other side credible. If you want to be respectful, at least tell me why I'm wrong. The facepalm absolutely has no relevance here at all. If you can't, then that's on you

I apologize, but that's like saying Freeza can beat Super Buu. And maybe the difference's higher.

Piccolo was even with a rusty Ssj2 Gohan. Ssj God Goku is universes, galaxies above him.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I apologize, but that's like saying Freeza can beat Super Buu. And maybe the difference's higher.

I don't understand. I thought it's common sense that Frieza is above Super Buu?

Piccolo was even with a rusty Ssj2 Gohan. Ssj God Goku is universes, galaxies above him.

Yeah but that's the Universe 6 Arc. Tournament of Power Arc Piccolo is dimensions above his U6 arc counterpart

[Hugo Boss]

I apologize, but that's like saying Freeza can beat Super Buu. And maybe the difference's higher.

I don't understand. I thought it's common sense that Frieza is above Super Buu?

Piccolo was even with a rusty Ssj2 Gohan. Ssj God Goku is universes, galaxies above him.

Yeah but that's the Universe 6 Arc. Tournament of Power Arc Piccolo is dimensions above his U6 arc counterpart

As Golden Freeza? Yes. Piccolo defeated SS2 Gohan in the Survival Arc.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I apologize, but that's like saying Freeza can beat Super Buu. And maybe the difference's higher.

I don't understand. I thought it's common sense that Frieza is above Super Buu?

Piccolo was even with a rusty Ssj2 Gohan. Ssj God Goku is universes, galaxies above him.

Yeah but that's the Universe 6 Arc. Tournament of Power Arc Piccolo is dimensions above his U6 arc counterpart

As Golden Freeza? Yes. Piccolo defeated SS2 Gohan in the Survival Arc.

And also in his final form. He could very well go up against Dyspo, and unless Super Buu > Dyspo, there's no way Super Buu is above Final Form Frieza.

RoF Final Form Frieza is also above Super Buu by far. Depending on if you argue Base Goku RoF arc > SsjG Goku BoG, then there's also no way around it given that claim

[Hugo Boss]

I don't understand. I thought it's common sense that Frieza is above Super Buu?

Yeah but that's the Universe 6 Arc. Tournament of Power Arc Piccolo is dimensions above his U6 arc counterpart

As Golden Freeza? Yes. Piccolo defeated SS2 Gohan in the Survival Arc.

And also in his final form. He could very well go up against Dyspo, and unless Super Buu > Dyspo, there's no way Super Buu is above Final Form Frieza.

RoF Final Form Frieza is also above Super Buu by far. Depending on if you argue Base Goku RoF arc > SsjG Goku BoG, then there's also no way around it given that claim

Dyspo is a difficult call because even Golden Freeza can’t beat him alone and I don’t think there is a consensus about Base Goku’s placement in all this.

[Zamasu55]

I apologize, but that's like saying Freeza can beat Super Buu. And maybe the difference's higher.

I don't understand. I thought it's common sense that Frieza is above Super Buu?

Piccolo was even with a rusty Ssj2 Gohan. Ssj God Goku is universes, galaxies above him.

Yeah but that's the Universe 6 Arc. Tournament of Power Arc Piccolo is dimensions above his U6 arc counterpart

I meant Namek Freeza.

And no, ToP Piccolo was even with a rusty Ssj2 Gohan during their training. So that's how strong he is.