Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:32 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:I wouldn't like the main continuity to really become Dragon Ball Heroes, with non-stop fanservice and recycling of old ideas.
Then you should take a better look, because the "main continuity" has already become that since 2014.
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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by PsionicWarrior » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm

No I'm tired of familiar faces, I want new faces but I want them to be good if that's not too much to ask for lol

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by sintzu » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:35 pm

Grimlock wrote:Then you should take a better look, because the "main continuity" has already become that since 2014.
That's not fair at all. I understand not liking some of the things Toriyama's done but it's nowhere near what Heroes is.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:38 pm

sintzu wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:Broly is a cool exception of being canonized because of his legendary status within the fandom. I wouldn't like the main continuity to really become Dragon Ball Heroes, with non-stop fanservice and recycling of old ideas.
Heroes is just a random collection of ideas thrown together which isn't what we're asking for. We want ideas that were underdeveloped to be given another chance at being fully realized. Heroes won't take the time to improve things like what Toriyama seems to be doing with Broly which is what we want for other concepts.

You're right Heroes is not actually a story, it's an adaptation of a game. But it's popular in Japan because it's all out aiming at fan-service. I think Dragon Ball has to think forward and bring renewing ideas, Super had some great arcs that were different than Z, like the FT-arc or the concept of TOP, i would appreciate original stories in the future as well. If there are too much recycled ideas coming back, the stories will begin to suffer under the constant recyclation.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by sintzu » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:47 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:If there are too much recycled ideas coming back, the stories will begin to suffer under the constant recyclation.
I fully agree with this. For every Broly they need to make sure to have a Beerus to balance it out so hopefully once Super returns it'll start with a completely original arc (after retelling Broly).
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:51 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mister_Popo wrote:I wouldn't like the main continuity to really become Dragon Ball Heroes, with non-stop fanservice and recycling of old ideas.
Then you should take a better look, because the "main continuity" has already become that since 2014.

There was fanservice in Super as well, but not the degree that one could speak of non-stop fanservice or the stories suffered because of that IMHO.
Everyone has his own limits of course, his own perception from where it's over the top.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by PFM18 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:36 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:So long as Toriyama's a neighboring star system away when production is underway, sure.
What? Why?

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:37 pm

sintzu wrote:That's not fair at all. I understand not liking some of the things Toriyama's done but it's nowhere near what Heroes is.
Fanservice is fanservice, no matter what difference you may want to apply. After Movie 14 came Movie 15 with just battle and no story at all, and Freeza's return was solely because of fanservice. Then a tournament, more fights and nothing else, which means more fanservice. Then Future Trunks saga, everything was okay up until Vegetto's appearance. Then another tournament again... Yes, it is totally fair. Saying bullshit about Heroes while placing Toriyama on a pedestal is just madness.

But you know what is not fair? Dragon Ball Heroes is a video-game, and therefore it has to give fanservice, where have you ever seen a game that completely ignores the fans? No game would sell if they didn't please their fanbase. So any random argument such as "hurr there's just fanservice, all about it!1!11!" toward a freaking video-game is nonsense.
Mister_Popo wrote:You're right Heroes is not actually a story, it's an adaptation of a game.
And the game is presenting a story. Now, if Dark Demon Realm Mission and Prison Planet aren't stories, I feel pity for what are what have been released since 2014... Surely we can't say that Dragon Ball Minus, Movie 15 and most of Dragon Ball Super are actual stories.
Mister_Popo wrote:There was fanservice in Super as well, but not the degree that one could speak of non-stop fanservice or the stories suffered because of that IMHO.
Everyone has his own limits of course, his own perception from where it's over the top.
As I mentioned above, a game has to please while the author of a work does not (in the sense of obligation). They do whatever they want without caring too much of what people are asking for. So yes, Dragon Ball Super's fanservice was to the degree comparable or even worse than Heroes.
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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:So long as Toriyama's a neighboring star system away when production is underway, sure.
What? Why?
He hasn't written a good Dragon Ball story in decades and the worst piece from him was Minus, a story where he took someone else's concept and tried to do his take on it to fascinatingly poor results. Even if you disagree with the first part of my comment, the second is very hard to refute and by itself sets a bad precedent.
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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by superfan2024 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:06 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:So long as Toriyama's a neighboring star system away when production is underway, sure.
What? Why?
He hasn't written a good Dragon Ball story in decades and the worst piece from him was Minus, a story where he took someone else's concept and tried to do his take on it to fascinatingly poor results. Even if you disagree with the first part of my comment, the second is very hard to refute and by itself sets a bad precedent.
So you want the original author away from production for the series? Get outta here

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:16 pm

superfan2024 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
What? Why?
He hasn't written a good Dragon Ball story in decades and the worst piece from him was Minus, a story where he took someone else's concept and tried to do his take on it to fascinatingly poor results. Even if you disagree with the first part of my comment, the second is very hard to refute and by itself sets a bad precedent.
So you want the original author away from production for the series? Get outta here
Who cares if it's the original author, if he's not cutting it he should leave. He wouldn't be the first guy to walk away from something and let other, potentially better people take over. Isn't forcing a creator who has no idea what he's doing the reason George Lucas was the most hated creator for almost 2 decades or is Dragon Ball exempt from THAT too?
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Shaddy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:59 pm

The thing is, Bardock's special is and probably always will be the only anime-original story that's better than Toriyama, or even really very good at all. I'm not sure anything Toriyama could have done would have been better, Minus just happened to be really really bad because of what it ruined, more than what it actually was. It would still be uneventful and kinda silly if Minus had been the first time we'd seen Bardock, but it was how it compared that made it so hated. Other than that, the question I pose is this: What has Tori been involved with that would be better without him? I can't think of anything. I guarantee RoF would have been worse, most of Super's dumbest moments have been based in Toei or Toyotaro misrepresenting or misinterpreting his drafts (you can tell it's not set in stone by him because they're always different kinds of stupid), and we already have three terrible (well, mediocre for the first one) Broly films that I cannot imagine the new one being worse than. Hell, the first eleven chapters of Jaco that Minus followed were an actually great Dragon Ball prequel, so it's not like Toriyama just fucks up everything he does. Bardock, for the most part, is the only example of Toriyama taking someone else's work and making it worse. Unless you replace him with someone already acclaimed outside of Dragon Ball and who people know is a good writer, there's no reason to axe him from his own franchise.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Gokitalo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:16 pm

I agree with a lot of folks that it'd be cool for Coola to become canon in some capacity, although there'd need to be an explanation for why his "fifth" form is so different from the Golden transformation. Maybe it was a unique mutation of Coola's, or Frieza briefly happened upon the form and found it limiting (and far less powerful than the form he later discovered).
BrolyKale wrote:I'd prefer new ideas from now on. Broly was just way too popular to get ignored so he is an exception.
I agree with that. Broly stands out for a lot of reasons, which is why I don't mind Toriyama taking a crack at him. He's always been very good at giving his characters distinct personalities, so I I'm sure he'll flesh Broly out in a way that'll be both interesting and maybe fix some of the more polarizing aspects of the character (e.g. hating Goku for making him cry as a child-- part of me admires it because it's so Dragon Ball in its goofiness, but it is pretty goofy for the Z era).
Lord Beerus wrote:Honestly, I'd love to see someone take another crack at the Evil Dragons arc from GT. That concept was fucking gold, and it HORRIBLY squandered in GT.
I feel that way about a lot of GT concepts on the whole: great ideas, flawed execution. The Dragons are definitely be the most interesting concept for Toriyama to adapt, I agree.
Shaddy wrote:The thing is, Bardock's special is and probably always will be the only anime-original story that's better than Toriyama, or even really very good at all.
I rather liked the Trunks anime special, too. Its length gave the creators the chance to add that extra emotional heft to it.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Shaddy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:26 pm

Oh no, I wasn't meaning to imply anything against the Trunks special, it's great. I just thought it was based off something Toriyama drew for the manga?

EDIT: yeah, it's based off Trunks: The History. It is much more expanded and elaborated on, but then it's still Toriyama's work that was very well-adapted, and that's happened tons of times. Bardock is still a story with the anime at it's source.
Last edited by Shaddy on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by MetaMoss » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:38 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: He hasn't written a good Dragon Ball story in decades and the worst piece from him was Minus, a story where he took someone else's concept and tried to do his take on it to fascinatingly poor results. Even if you disagree with the first part of my comment, the second is very hard to refute and by itself sets a bad precedent.
But then there's also Battle of Gods, a story where he took someone else's concept and turned it into something fresh and interesting.
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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Gokitalo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:13 pm

Shaddy wrote:Oh no, I wasn't meaning to imply anything against the Trunks special, it's great. I just thought it was based off something Toriyama drew for the manga?

EDIT: yeah, it's based off Trunks: The History. It is much more expanded and elaborated on, but then it's still Toriyama's work that was very well-adapted, and that's happened tons of times. Bardock is still a story with the anime at it's source.
Ah, sorry, yes, that's a very good point: the special just fleshed out Trunks: The History so much that I sort of placed it in the wrong mental category.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by Shaddy » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:15 pm

Hey, I only learned it wasn't anime-exclusive a couple days ago watching MistareFusion's dissection series, you're good.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by ZeroDio » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:31 pm

Reworking GT characters like

The Shadow Dragons being born from the Super Dragon Balls would seem interesting

Plus Super 17 (and introducing Super 18) being created through Towa’s Dark Magic (if they do Normal Towa or Darkness Towa) or Dark Evolution (if they do Demon God Towa) (considering Toriyama created Towa & Mira)

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by PFM18 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:17 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:So long as Toriyama's a neighboring star system away when production is underway, sure.
What? Why?
He hasn't written a good Dragon Ball story in decades and the worst piece from him was Minus, a story where he took someone else's concept and tried to do his take on it to fascinatingly poor results. Even if you disagree with the first part of my comment, the second is very hard to refute and by itself sets a bad precedent.
Sure Minus sucked but so what?

I am very happy with DBS and the story he has written and I am fairly confident Toriyama can make something good out of Broly atleast if not the rest of the non canon characters he could reboot.

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Re: Would y’all like it if Tori rebooted other Z Movie/GT villains?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:35 am

Is it too hard to come up with some new ideas? I feel like Broly should be the last hoorah of rehashing ideas, especially outside of canon.

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