The Super Saiyan Multiplier for Fused Beings

[Grand Marshal 1]

Hello everyone! It is I, Grand and today I will post the second segment of my Fusion-related posts. In this one, we are going to talk about Potara Fusion, but more specifically about Vegito and his SSJ forms' multipliers.

For this, I am going to use the info from Kazenshuu, which state of Base Vegito being possibly stronger than a SSJ4 Goku and certainly stronger than a SSJ3 Goku, meaning an equivalent of 500 "Gokus". My SSJ4 is that of 500, so if you want to know why, you may PM me for further clarification. Vegito=500 "Gokus"

So, I recall Goku's fight with Rilldo. Rilldo (in the Japanese Dub) stated that Goku's power as a Super Saiyan had only doubled from his base form, while in the english dub he states that it multiplied 100 fold (which may suggest that Goku used SSJ2, but he was SSJ, so the only logical explanation is that e has mastered his Grade 4 Super Saiyan to the point where he can access the energy output of a Super Saiyan 2), but all we care about is the "doubled" part.

With these information in our mind, we can determine one very crucial thing. Throughout Dragon Ball, we have seen multiple Saiyans achieving numerous transformations. However, beings like Vegito and Gogeta are different. Both of them are massively nore powerful than each one of the known Saiyans individually. As such, not only do their Base forms are different (as I stated, more powerful) but also, their transformations may be too. This translates into different multipliers for the forms of an individual. You may ask, why would the ×50 multiplier for SSJ change in all of a sudden? Well, there are two important things that we have to consider when talking about Gogeta or Vegito. They are Fusions. Unnaturaly more powerful than their fusees. Not only that, but the Fusions themselves require huge amounts of energy to be maintained, which further explains the reason behind the extremely short-timed fusions of Goku and Vegeta (as the Fused being's power output is much greater than what the Fusion can take on).

Now, considering that Goku achieved such a mastery of the SSJ in GT (it appears that his SSJ has the traits of a SSJ2), then Vegito (with Super Vegito being similar to a SSJ2, without being one) has probably achieved the same. In order for this to happen, one must get the traits of a Super Saiyan 2 in his first form, meaning that by becoming 2 times stronger you simply have a huge battle power. Long story short, if Buuhan was a victim to Base Vegito, then the fused warrior could annihilate the Majin as a SSJ due to the increase in power (of course this could happen if he received a 50 times multiplier, but the point is that he didn't need SSJ to destroy Buuhan at full power), thus Super Vegito has a 2.5× Base multiplier, like Goku (possibly) in GT. With that said, one can imply that Super Vegito from the Buu Saga is equal to (or slithly more powerful) than Baby Saga GT Goku as a Super Saiyan. Rilldo was more powerful than Majin Buu (I think that they referred to the Innocent Buu who is on par with regular Super Buu) so Super Vegito (who let us say that equals GT SSJ Goku) would have no problem killing the monster. Now Rilldo could be as powerful as Super Buu with Gotenks adn Piccolo absorbed (subsequently stronger than Kid Buu) but not as strong as Buuhan. Ultimately, if GT SSJ Goku was fighting equally with Rilldo (who is comparable to Super Buu w/Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed) then the same can apply to Vegito, meaning that he probably needs only a ×2.5 times multiplier on his SSJ to fight with Buuhan.

NOTE THAT ONLY THE FISRT SSJ FORM'S MULTIPLIER CHANGES!!!

Now, using the 12,500 times multiplier for SSJG Goku, Vegito as a SSJ could only be equivalent to 1,250 "Gokus", SSJ2 Vegito would be equal to 2,500 "Gokus" and last but not least, Vegito as a hypothetical SSJ3 would be equal to 10,000 "Gokus". Perhaps Goku wasn't wrong and he didn't overestimate Beerus as I initially thought. (This paragraph is my argument for everyone saying that even a "hypothetical" Super Saiyan 3 Vegito wouldn't be able to fight Beerus, as Goku stated on North Kai's planet, that even if he and Vegeta fused it wouldn't be enough).

So even SSJ3 Vegito wouldn't be enough against Beerus.

Now, you may ask, if GT stated that Goku's SSJ was only a 2 times multiplier, where did you get the 2.5 for Vegito? The 2.5 is backed up by this game http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon ... nture_Game as I didn't find it right for Vegito to use only a ×2 SSJ multiplier so I used this one, which is slightly increased.

Also the Wiki states this: " When a Super Saiyan achieves an extremely high level of power, they will exhibit sparks around their aura (like a Super Saiyan 2), this has only been displayed by Vegito, Goku (only in the anime), and Goku Black."

Basically, (in a way similar to the Potential Unleashed form, as Elder Kai stated), these individuals are so powerful that they might not have to transform and even if they do, it doesn't boost their power to massive levels. To conclude my post, I am always using Vegito's 2.5 times SSJ multiplier to get the other Fusions' SSJ multipliers as well. So the factors that are the reason behind this change of multipliers are: 1)The power of the resulting being and 2)The energy required to sustain a fusion (this acts more like an excuse).

I will be glad to have a meaningful conversation with you on this thread, thank you!

[Grand Marshal 1]

For those who are wondering, here is pt 1 of this post.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42797

[Darkprince410]

For this, I am going to use the info from Kazenshuu, which state of Base Vegito being possibly stronger than a SSJ4 Goku and certainly stronger than a SSJ3 Goku, meaning an equivalent of 500 "Gokus". My SSJ4 is that of 500, so if you want to know why, you may PM me for further clarification. Vegito=500 "Gokus"

This part is inaccurate. First, that information doesn't come from Kanzenshuu (outside of the fact that it's been posted on this site from its original source), but rather the animanga adaptation for the Goku Jr. GT special. More to the point though, it does not say that base Vegetto is stronger or possibly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku, just that the Vegetto we see in the Buu arc is possibly stronger than Super Saiyan 4. As such, you're looking at a more conservative notion of Super Saiyan Vegetto (the highest power we see him have in the Buu arc) being possibly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

Rilldo (in the Japanese Dub) stated that Goku's power as a Super Saiyan had only doubled from his base form

This is also inaccurate. Rild does not say that Goku only doubled his strength. Rather, his specific comment was.

Rild: "Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power."

Which essentially just means that the jump from his base form to Super Saiyan more than just doubled Goku's strength. This very well could leave us with it still being the 50 fold increase it always was, as such an increase would indeed be more than double his strength.

Now, considering that Goku achieved such a mastery of the SSJ in GT (it appears that his SSJ has the traits of a SSJ2), then Vegito (with Super Vegito being similar to a SSJ2, without being one) has probably achieved the same. In order for this to happen, one must get the traits of a Super Saiyan 2 in his first form, meaning that by becoming 2 times stronger you simply have a huge battle power. Long story short, if Buuhan was a victim to Base Vegito, then the fused warrior could annihilate the Majin as a SSJ due to the increase in power (of course this could happen if he received a 50 times multiplier, but the point is that he didn't need SSJ to destroy Buuhan at full power), thus Super Vegito has a 2.5× Base multiplier, like Goku (possibly) in GT. With that said, one can imply that Super Vegito from the Buu Saga is equal to (or slithly more powerful) than Baby Saga GT Goku as a Super Saiyan. Rilldo was more powerful than Majin Buu (I think that they referred to the Innocent Buu who is on par with regular Super Buu) so Super Vegito (who let us say that equals GT SSJ Goku) would have no problem killing the monster. Now Rilldo could be as powerful as Super Buu with Gotenks adn Piccolo absorbed (subsequently stronger than Kid Buu) but not as strong as Buuhan. Ultimately, if GT SSJ Goku was fighting equally with Rilldo (who is comparable to Super Buu w/Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed) then the same can apply to Vegito, meaning that he probably needs only a ×2.5 times multiplier on his SSJ to fight with Buuhan.

Nothing in GT indicates or suggests that he had mastered Super Saiyan to the point that it was essentially Super Saiyan 2, especially since we see him use Super Saiyan 2 briefly during his battle with Rild's final form. More importantly, your scaling doesn't make sense. With Super Saiyan Vegetto being indicated officially to be potentially be above Super Saiyan 4 Goku, then that'd mean that all the other characters you have mentioned would be below him. Super Saiyan 1-3 Goku, Rild, Baby Vegeta, etc would all be below Buu arc Super Saiyan Vegetto. Additionally, Mr. Buu is nowhere near as powerful as the regular Evil Buu (Super Buu), as he logically should be about the same strength as he was in the Buu arc (no indication of training or that he had gained strength otherwise), which would make his merging with Uub about the same as Evil Buu as a result.

> Also the Wiki states this: " When a Super Saiyan achieves an extremely high level of power, they will exhibit sparks around their aura (like a Super Saiyan 2), this has only been displayed by Vegito, Goku (only in the anime), and Goku Black."

The Wiki is notorious for making inaccurate or blatantly false statements, with no actual evidence to support their "facts". A number of their articles are rampant with baseless speculation and it's just not a good or reliable source of information. This is something that they made up that has no basis in the manga, anime, official statements, or guide books whatsoever.

[ricky84]

The idea the SSJ multipliers are different for anyone or that they changed overtime has zero evidence.

[Grand Marshal 1]

For this, I am going to use the info from Kazenshuu, which state of Base Vegito being possibly stronger than a SSJ4 Goku and certainly stronger than a SSJ3 Goku, meaning an equivalent of 500 "Gokus". My SSJ4 is that of 500, so if you want to know why, you may PM me for further clarification. Vegito=500 "Gokus"

This part is inaccurate. First, that information doesn't come from Kanzenshuu (outside of the fact that it's been posted on this site from its original source), but rather the animanga adaptation for the Goku Jr. GT special. More to the point though, it does not say that base Vegetto is stronger or possibly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku, just that the Vegetto we see in the Buu arc is possibly stronger than Super Saiyan 4. As such, you're looking at a more conservative notion of Super Saiyan Vegetto (the highest power we see him have in the Buu arc) being possibly stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

Rilldo (in the Japanese Dub) stated that Goku's power as a Super Saiyan had only doubled from his base form

This is also inaccurate. Rild does not say that Goku only doubled his strength. Rather, his specific comment was.

Rild: "Up to now, you haven't been putting out half of your power."

Which essentially just means that the jump from his base form to Super Saiyan more than just doubled Goku's strength. This very well could leave us with it still being the 50 fold increase it always was, as such an increase would indeed be more than double his strength.

Now, considering that Goku achieved such a mastery of the SSJ in GT (it appears that his SSJ has the traits of a SSJ2), then Vegito (with Super Vegito being similar to a SSJ2, without being one) has probably achieved the same. In order for this to happen, one must get the traits of a Super Saiyan 2 in his first form, meaning that by becoming 2 times stronger you simply have a huge battle power. Long story short, if Buuhan was a victim to Base Vegito, then the fused warrior could annihilate the Majin as a SSJ due to the increase in power (of course this could happen if he received a 50 times multiplier, but the point is that he didn't need SSJ to destroy Buuhan at full power), thus Super Vegito has a 2.5× Base multiplier, like Goku (possibly) in GT. With that said, one can imply that Super Vegito from the Buu Saga is equal to (or slithly more powerful) than Baby Saga GT Goku as a Super Saiyan. Rilldo was more powerful than Majin Buu (I think that they referred to the Innocent Buu who is on par with regular Super Buu) so Super Vegito (who let us say that equals GT SSJ Goku) would have no problem killing the monster. Now Rilldo could be as powerful as Super Buu with Gotenks adn Piccolo absorbed (subsequently stronger than Kid Buu) but not as strong as Buuhan. Ultimately, if GT SSJ Goku was fighting equally with Rilldo (who is comparable to Super Buu w/Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed) then the same can apply to Vegito, meaning that he probably needs only a ×2.5 times multiplier on his SSJ to fight with Buuhan.

Nothing in GT indicates or suggests that he had mastered Super Saiyan to the point that it was essentially Super Saiyan 2, especially since we see him use Super Saiyan 2 briefly during his battle with Rild's final form. More importantly, your scaling doesn't make sense. With Super Saiyan Vegetto being indicated officially to be potentially be above Super Saiyan 4 Goku, then that'd mean that all the other characters you have mentioned would be below him. Super Saiyan 1-3 Goku, Rild, Baby Vegeta, etc would all be below Buu arc Super Saiyan Vegetto. Additionally, Mr. Buu is nowhere near as powerful as the regular Evil Buu (Super Buu), as he logically should be about the same strength as he was in the Buu arc (no indication of training or that he had gained strength otherwise), which would make his merging with Uub about the same as Evil Buu as a result.

> Also the Wiki states this: " When a Super Saiyan achieves an extremely high level of power, they will exhibit sparks around their aura (like a Super Saiyan 2), this has only been displayed by Vegito, Goku (only in the anime), and Goku Black."

The Wiki is notorious for making inaccurate or blatantly false statements, with no actual evidence to support their "facts". A number of their articles are rampant with baseless speculation and it's just not a good or reliable source of information. This is something that they made up that has no basis in the manga, anime, official statements, or guide books whatsoever.

Perhaps you are right. Well, I am just trying to create a more easily comprehensible DB Universe for myself. Anyway, I have to state that the only thing you miht have gotten wrong is the Buu part. When I refer to "Innocent" Buu, I mean his form prior splitting into good Buu and Evil Buu. Super Buu is in an equal level of power, however, this time, Evil Buu is in control of the absorbtion. This is what I meant by saying (I think I did) that Rilldo is equal to Buu. Goku was more powerful than in Z (possibly a Ssj3 difference) so Final Form Rilldo should be at least in the level of Super Buu w/Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed. Too much for Z Goku, but manageable for GT Goku.Thank you for the input though!

[Darkprince410]

When I refer to "Innocent" Buu, I mean his form prior splitting into good Buu and Evil Buu. Super Buu is in an equal level of power, however, this time, Evil Buu is in control of the absorbtion.

That Buu is far from the one that Goku would likely be referring to. Most likely, he'd be referring to Mr. Buu, the good half that remained after the split. After all, he's telling this information to both Pan and Trunks, and while Trunks did have contact with the other forms of Buu, Pan has not, so there's no reason to make him the frame of reference if he's referring to a different form of Buu. Especially when you consider that this would be the Buu Trunks and Goku have known for 15 years, and the only one Pan has known all her life.

[Desassina]

While it's definitely possible for Goku in Battle of Gods to have powered up SSJ to go past the numbered forms through the God one, when manga Goku Black had access to that level against Vegeta after Goku fought Trunks and they mentioned their respective levels (SSJ2 was up there with SSJ3 and SSJ Goku Black was equal to or higher than SSJ Vegeta), no such thing would have happened without SSJ God or Blue to make every other form a shortcut. The numbered forms were their highest, but now they're locked behind the God ones, similarly to the grades before their full power. However, I wouldn't trust with the Wiki on those sparks either, specially when they mentioned Vegetto.

[Grand Marshal 1]

While it's definitely possible for Goku in Battle of Gods to have powered up SSJ to go past the numbered forms through the God one, when manga Goku Black had access to that level against Vegeta after Goku fought Trunks and they mentioned their respective levels (SSJ2 was up there with SSJ3 and SSJ Goku Black was equal to or higher than SSJ Vegeta), no such thing would have happened without SSJ God or Blue to make every other form a shortcut. The numbered forms were their highest, but now they're locked behind the God ones, similarly to the grades before their full power. However, I wouldn't trust with the Wiki on those sparks either, specially when they mentioned Vegetto.

Perhaps. I will try to gtther some more info then.

[p-hyvo]

it is the same of unfused beings, there's no sense at all in chainging it, and basing on videogames is odderly stupid and nosense. obviously in vgs programmers can't use the manga multipliers, or the battles would be one shot after one of the players transforms

[Grand Marshal 1]

it is the same of unfused beings, there's no sense at all in chainging it, and basing on videogames is odderly stupid and nosense. obviously in vgs programmers can't use the manga multipliers, or the battles would be one shot after one of the players transforms

I understand your points, however let me imply that I am using the info from that video game as a coincidental number. I had the number 2 in my mind (based on several calculations) and then I found this video game which listed the SSJ multiplier as a ×2.5 of the user's Base. So I decided to use it.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

I believe SSJ multipliers are the same for fusions as they are for individuals. A fusion has no evidence of actually changing the properties of Saiyan transformations.

It would be easier just to find out first exactly what the initial Gogeta/Vegito fusions did to their individual power, and then stack the original SSJ multipliers on top of this.

I also still believe that the type of fusions (potara/dance) and characters involved influence how powerful they are. Vegito is theoretically the most powerful one, and Gotenks being the least powerful.
On my current formula I have SSJ Gogeta about on par with SSJ3 Gotenks, but base Vegito just may actually defeat SSJ Gogeta (although Gogeta could put up a fight I think).

[Grand Marshal 1]

I believe SSJ multipliers are the same for fusions as they are for individuals. A fusion has no evidence of actually changing the properties of Saiyan transformations.

It would be easier just to find out first exactly what the initial Gogeta/Vegito fusions did to their individual power, and then stack the original SSJ multipliers on top of this.

I also still believe that the type of fusions (potara/dance) and characters involved influence how powerful they are. Vegito is theoretically the most powerful one, and Gotenks being the least powerful.

Applying the original multipliers, though, seems way too overpowered...

[Kaboom]

This type of "watch me fiddle around and make up a PLs formula" discussion belongs in the dedicated power levels thread.