Which Would Be The Better Ultimate Saiyan Form? SSJ4 or PSSJB?

[Saturnine]

And I think that just because something is different, doesn't automatically mean it's good. I don't give points for effort, only points for the results.

[Majin Buu]

And I think that just because something is different, doesn't automatically mean it's good. I don't give points for effort, only points for the results.

And the result is that Super Saiyan Blue is so silly looking that it comes off like a parody of Super Saiyan to me when that's clearly not the intended result.

While Super Saiyan 4 is visually distinct, draws from the series' mythos in an interesting way, and has a very "primal" feel to it, making it feel like the culmination of a Saiyan's evolution.

[Arugela]

They could be eqaul ultimately. SSJgod is an increase in power internally as in ki. SSJ4 is the ultimate in physical power and for sayians. They could be intermixed.

[TheOne]

Super Saiyan Blue KK, the most aesthetically pleasing and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct.

SSJ4 has a good concept but the execution looks terribly bad, eye liners, fur coat, magical clothes appear out of nowhere when transforming and that annoying tail are simply a joke.

You’re really gonna try and compare images that are over 20 years apart? Okay...

One scene CLEARLY had a lot more effort put into it compared to the other.

[Rakurai]

Super Saiyan Blue KK, the most aesthetically pleasing and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct.
SSJ4 has a good concept but the execution looks terribly bad, eye liners, fur coat, magical clothes appear out of nowhere when transforming and that annoying tail are simply a joke.

I can do this too with selective gifs.

Super Saiyan 4 the most awesome, ferocious, and creative form and potentially the most powerful state bar Ultra Instinct:



SSB has good concept with god ki but the recolor looks terribly bad and lazy, blue is an absolutely random hair color, doesn't match well with their clothes and that blob aura it emits is simply annoying.

[Rakurai]

SSB feels extremely lazy and the blue hair doesn't mean anything except it being random. It's basically a SSJ recolor like fan art. I feel nothing from it. The fact that Toriyama chose blue hair because he was randomly picking colors makes it even worse.

SSJ4 on the other hand looks ferocious, intimidating, and it emanates power just from the design of the form alone. SSJ4 managed to take elements of a Saiyan and Oozaru and still make it look damn good. Nakatsuru knew what he was doing when designing the form. In addition, every SSJ4 is unique enough for each and every character that there's always hype surrounding who gets the next SSJ4 form in Dragon Ball Heroes. You can't pull off something like that with Blue where it's literally just SSJ recolor.

[Grimlock]

which of these two supremely powerful transformations do you think is the best to call the true ultimate form of the Saiyans to strive for?

Neither. Super Saiyan 2 should be the greatest form (well, it already is, only surpassed in power by other random forms).

[Potara-Warrior96]

SSJ4 is the pinnacle of Saiyan power and it harkens back to roots of being monkey men unlike SSJB where it's a completely lazy recolor of the original SSJ1 form. People say they like SSJB cause it's simple but it's not, simple would be MUI where it has simply the users base hair and eye color change.

[Saturnine]

And I think that just because something is different, doesn't automatically mean it's good. I don't give points for effort, only points for the results.

And the result is that Super Saiyan Blue is so silly looking that it comes off like a parody of Super Saiyan to me when that's clearly not the intended result.

You're quite isolated in that assessment though. Most ppl are just bothered by how little it differs from regular SSj and scream "recolor", opting to look at the perceived effort that went into it, rather than the effect.

While Super Saiyan 4 is visually distinct, draws from the series' mythos in an interesting way, and has a very "primal" feel to it, making it feel like the culmination of a Saiyan's evolution.

Is it really a "culmination", though? Going back to black after all the previous forms where gold, shiny and radiant feels like a regression to me. If the fur were brown instead of red, the form would look like an empowered, but standard state that every Saiyan could access after say, mastering the Oozaru. It hardly looks more mysterious, arcane or elevated than even regular SSj with its golden radiance.

[Lord Frieza]

Sod all this Super Saiyan nonsense, the saiyan ultimate form will always be them going ape#### crazy on a full moon.

[Rakurai]

And the result is that Super Saiyan Blue is so silly looking that it comes off like a parody of Super Saiyan to me when that's clearly not the intended result.

You're quite isolated in that assessment though. Most ppl are just bothered by how little it differs from regular SSj and scream "recolor", opting to look at the perceived effort that went into it, rather than the effect.

The effect? Super Saiyan Blue is spammed and rendered pointless in almost every aspect of the anime. Only Toyotarou manages to make the form seem quite powerful after completing it, which I suppose is the whole point of this thread. Both are powerful, but the one which fits the DB premise better in the end is SSJ4.

[Saturnine]

The effect? Super Saiyan Blue is spammed and rendered pointless in almost every aspect of the anime. Only Toyotarou manages to make the form seem quite powerful after completing it, which I suppose is the whole point of this thread. Both are powerful, but the one which fits the DB premise better in the end is SSJ4.

Well, the creator of the franchise himself seems to think that moving away from primitive, monkey-like roots is more of a way to go than returning to them. That's why he got rid of everyone's tails entirely, creates new transformations having nothing to do with tails, and even making the U6 Saiyans evolve past having them entirely. Like the tails were a primitive trait giving not much benefit, one to be lost through evolution. Saiyan advancement in Toriyama's mind clearly doesn't involve regressing to the apelike roots of the race, so I'm not sure what "premise of the series" you're talking about here.

Toriyama acknowledged the idea of SSj4 via Broly's "enraged" form, but I feel he made it much more logical in terms of where it should stand in power. The power of an Ozaru in the Saiyan's normal body. Much stronger than usual, clearly, but nowhere near the realm of legends, such as SSj. And I'm personally very much OK with that. Notice that in order to make SSj4 even remotely justified, they had to come up with the Golden Ozaru, kind of a forced justification of SSj4's power, so as to divert attention from how it's attained. It clearly wouldn't have worked without the Golden Ozaru if it were to be portrayed as a form surpassing SSj3.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I don't mind others liking SSj4, it's your call, but for me personally this form either misses something or is misplaced in the order of power-ups. I'd have liked it much more if both the hair and the fur were golden. Frankly, it would have been THE logical thing to do to create the "ultimate" form that combines the "man", the "ape" and the "Super Saiyan" in a single form.

[Rakurai]

The effect? Super Saiyan Blue is spammed and rendered pointless in almost every aspect of the anime. Only Toyotarou manages to make the form seem quite powerful after completing it, which I suppose is the whole point of this thread. Both are powerful, but the one which fits the DB premise better in the end is SSJ4.

Well, the creator of the franchise himself seems to think that moving away from primitive, monkey-like roots is more of a way to go than returning to them. That's why he got rid of everyone's tails entirely, creates new transformations having nothing to do with tails, and even making the U6 Saiyans evolve past having them entirely. Like the tails were a primitive trait giving not much benefit, one to be lost through evolution. Saiyan advancement in Toriyama's mind clearly doesn't involve regressing to the apelike roots of the race, so I'm not sure what "premise of the series" you're talking about here.

Toriyama acknowledged the idea of SSj4 via Broly's "enraged" form, but I feel he made it much more logical in terms of where it should stand in power. The power of an Ozaru in the Saiyan's normal body. Much stronger than usual, clearly, but nowhere near the realm of legends, such as SSj. And I'm personally very much OK with that. Notice that in order to make SSj4 even remotely justified, they had to come up with the Golden Ozaru, kind of a forced justification of SSj4's power, so as to divert attention from how it's attained. It clearly wouldn't have worked without the Golden Ozaru if it were to be portrayed as a form surpassing SSj3.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I don't mind others liking SSj4, it's your call, but for me personally this form either misses something or is misplaced in the order of power-ups. I'd have liked it much more if both the hair and the fur were golden. Frankly, it would have been THE logical thing to do to create the "ultimate" form that combines the "man", the "ape" and the "Super Saiyan" in a single form.

Toriyama made the Saiyans an initially primitive race with the innate ability to transform into apes as their ultimate trump card. SSJ4 is a combination of SSJ and the great ape transformation, both of which are inherently tied to the Super Saiyan legend. That's what I meant by premise.

SSG on the other hand is obtained by some convoluted ritual involving pure-hearted SSJs, which had to be discovered by a wish from Shenron, not passed down in Saiyan legend. This is even more forced and absurd than SSJ4.

You can argue both forms are achieved through convoluted means. But in the end the one that ties in to the lore of Saiyans in DB the most is SSJ4.

[Saturnine]

SSG on the other hand is obtained by some convoluted ritual involving pure-hearted SSJs, which had to be discovered by a wish from Shenron, not passed down in Saiyan legend. This is even more forced and absurd than SSJ4.

You can argue both forms are achieved through convoluted means. But in the end the one that ties in to the lore of Saiyans in DB the most is SSJ4.

Not really though. The SSG ritual was retroactively introduced into legend, while SSj4 requires a golden ape transformation never before conceived

[Majin Buu]

You're quite isolated in that assessment though. Most ppl are just bothered by how little it differs from regular SSj and scream "recolor", opting to look at the perceived effort that went into it, rather than the effect.

That is the effect for me though, it ends up looking like something someone would come up with to parody Super Saiyan, making it feel like an unaware self-parody.

Is it really a "culmination", though?

When you think about what the Saiyans as a whole are like (fearsome warriors associated with apes that like to fight), I think it visualizes that perfectly.

Not really though. The SSG ritual was retroactively introduced into legend, while SSj4 requires a golden ape transformation never before conceived

A distinction without a difference. Neither concept existed or was hinted to exist in the original source material.

[Rakurai]

Not really though. The SSG ritual was retroactively introduced into legend, while SSj4 requires a golden ape transformation never before conceived

Being retroactively introduced doesn't mean it fits into the previously established DB lore. Beerus was shoehorned into the story and it stunk worse than a rotten corpse. Same thing with SSG, it was random and was made up on the spot. Doesn't mean it's bad overall, but it had zero precedence. SSJ4 drew elements from the original series from which it was a sequel of.

[BWri]

SSJ4 is better on so many levels. Id prefer if the original SSG form has a spiked up look and an aura that gets more and more flamelike as the form increases. I always thought SSGSS was too plastic looking, especially without the aura. Nothing about the form looks natural and it completely clashes with all the previous forms AND their clothes.

Funny enough, they took my idea (not really) for SSGSS with their design of UI Omen. I always said that they should have kept the hair black and changed the aura and eye color for SSGSS and further forms and whaddya know, it looks fantastic. Changing the hair is silly ... unless it looks more like its infused with ki. I always thought that if we absolutely had to turn Goku's hair Kamehameha blue, that Vegetas should turn Galick Gun purple so it at least matches their natural aura.

SS4 incorporates the Oozaru form heavily and looks fantastic. I do kinda dislike the non-furry nipple-less chest though and magical shirt growing.

[Saturnine]

I'm definitely a bigger fan of Broly's "Wrathful" form as a combination of base and Oozaru, simply because SSj4's red fur was awkward IMO. Nakatsuru kinda wrote himself into a corner with it - since if the fur were brown, the form wouldn't have looked powerful enough. I wouldn't have minded SSj4 in the slightest had both the fur and the hair been golden. It would have both felt consistent with the previous SSj forms and added in that primal component derived from the Golden Ozaru perfectly. Like I said, I feel that SSj4 feels more like a transitional state than an ultimate form of its own due to its weird coloring scheme that borrows nothing from the Golden Ozaru - the form that leads directly to it.

[DragonBallFan]

SSBE is the ultimate Saiyan transformation. Divine Ki combined with SSJ to form SSB, and then mutated to break the limits of that transformation. A literal divine transformation screams more "Ultimate" to me than being a monkey with red fur, even if the SSJ4 form is a more aesthetically creative transformation.

All it is really is Second Grade Super Saiyan with God Power.

[PFM18]

SSBE is the ultimate Saiyan transformation. Divine Ki combined with SSJ to form SSB, and then mutated to break the limits of that transformation. A literal divine transformation screams more "Ultimate" to me than being a monkey with red fur, even if the SSJ4 form is a more aesthetically creative transformation.

All it is really is Second Grade Super Saiyan with God Power.

No, not really. It may aesthetically resemble it slightly, but it is otherwise not similar in any way.