All in all, are you happy the revival happened?

[ABED]

The fact Goku feels enormous potential in Uub, despite Uub was not trained at all (he couldn't even fly), does not change after Super. That does leave space for a new story to be told in my opinion.

Yes, when Buu was the strongest being Goku ever faced, seeing tons of potential in his reincarnated self makes sense. However, with Super, there were way stronger opponents Goku met in the years before meeting Uub. The ending doesn't make sense anymore.

There aren't new stories to tell, at least not ones worth telling. Uub isn't a character, he's a thematic device.

[FlpShimizu]

They kinda shoved God ki into Uub, maybe that´ll help him stay relevant.

[Robo4900]

They kinda shoved God ki into Uub, maybe that´ll help him stay relevant.

Higher power level =/= more relevant.

Writing that makes a character feel naturally relevant to the currently-in-progress story = more relevant.

[FlpShimizu]

They kinda shoved God ki into Uub, maybe that´ll help him stay relevant.

Higher power level =/= more relevant.

Writing that makes a character feel naturally relevant to the currently-in-progress story = more relevant.

Sure, I agree. It's just that it seemed they were dismissing Uub because his potential wouldn't be so impressive now that Super happened.

[ABED]

They kinda shoved God ki into Uub, maybe that´ll help him stay relevant.

Higher power level =/= more relevant.

Writing that makes a character feel naturally relevant to the currently-in-progress story = more relevant.

Sure, I agree. It's just that it seemed they were dismissing Uub because his potential wouldn't be so impressive now that Super happened.

But he doesn't have God Ki. The ending in this context flat out doesn't work on any level.

[FlpShimizu]

Higher power level =/= more relevant.

Writing that makes a character feel naturally relevant to the currently-in-progress story = more relevant.

Sure, I agree. It's just that it seemed they were dismissing Uub because his potential wouldn't be so impressive now that Super happened.

But he doesn't have God Ki. The ending in this context flat out doesn't work on any level.

As it was, it doesn't. I'm just saying the Super manga gave Kid Buu (and Uub, probably) God ki, possibly to address this very discussion.

[Mister_Popo]

Sure, I agree. It's just that it seemed they were dismissing Uub because his potential wouldn't be so impressive now that Super happened.

But he doesn't have God Ki. The ending in this context flat out doesn't work on any level.

As it was, it doesn't. I'm just saying the Super manga gave Kid Buu (and Uub, probably) God ki, possibly to address this very discussion.

Exactly, we don't know how strong Uub really is. His character can easily be written in a way he fits both into the new narrative and the old EOZ. Definitely when Uub does in effect appear to have God-Ki.

Even in the original EOZ Goku was clearly holding back, Uub wasn't on Gokus level as the latter didn't even go SSJ1 to fight him. Goku however offered to train Uub, although he knew there were far stronger fighters like Vegeta or his son at that point. Despits this, he felt Uub had the largest potential of an "untrained" fighter with that age he had ever met. This excited Goku and made him do his offer of becoming his trainer. He probably also felt Uub could surpass him one day or at least challenge him to attain new hights, seeing his enormous potential. That does not necessarily change after Super.

It all depends in my opinion how they write and integrate the character of Uub / EOZ and what comes next into Super.
I don't agree this can be stated with certainty at this point it wouldn't work.

[ABED]

Given everything we've seen, even with all the ridiculous retcons, the ending doesn't resonate with Super in the mix. The reason for the retcon couldn't be more obvious.

What Uub had was raw power he didn't know the depth of and untapped potential. Of course Goku wasn't going all out. That doesn't change anything. Given Vegeta has God ki and like any Super Saiyan, an endless well of potential, what meaning does Kid Buu reincarnated for Goku? At this point, Uub is just another character who has a lot of potential.

I don't want to give anything away for those that do want to see Terminator: Dark Fate, but DF doesn't invalidate the conclusion of T2's plot, but it does undercut it thematically.

[SupremeKai25]

Though I believe an arc should be watched from start to finish, if you already know the general outcome of the Future Trunks arc you can just watch it from episode 47 until 61 (after that the arc was rushed). Since you like the concept of Zamasu, that's also when his character truly shines and you get to explore his inner turmoil.

If/when I get around to that, I intend to watch the entire arc, not parts of it. I don't feel like I could accurately judge the arc's quality if I didn't watch the whole thing.

Fair enough. I'd do that and see if my opinion of the arc changes, because it's one thing reading reviews online and it's another to watch it for yourself.

[Mister_Popo]

Given Vegeta has God ki and like any Super Saiyan, an endless well of potential, what meaning does Kid Buu reincarnated for Goku? At this point, Uub is just another character who has a lot of potential.

Nor Goku, Vegeta or even Gohan were as strong as Uub at that young age. Gohan became very strong as well at a very young age, but only after he had received rigorous training to become SSJ1/2. It says something about Uubs 'latent potential' that he is already that strong when he even does not know how to fly. I think they could potentially do something with the character, depending how they write the story.

Some parts of Super were written and executed very badly, other parts were pretty good. I keep it at 'relatively entertaining' all in all, not as bad as it could have been (if they had done nothing to improve after the first two arcs), not as good as it could have been (with a better schedule and writing).

The new Star Wars-movies aren't received that well amongst all fans. But their new series "the Mandalorian", which is extended universe too, generally gets excellent reviews after episode 1 (haven't seen it yet, but it seems somehow "promising", which i hadn't expected).
"Broly" was better received amongst fans than the Super series or the ROF-movie, while it's all the same franchise.

I only wanted to point out: not everything that's extended universe is automatically bad. It's more difficult to stay original or convincing within a universe that already exists. But it's not impossible either. It all depends how the producers write and execute it.

[ABED]

There's nothing to do with him. Uub's purpose isn't to be another strong character, it's to be a thematic device. Broly was boring. It's a bunch of fanservice. What are you looking for with Uub beyond not wanting to say goodbye to DB? What is it about his character that you think calls for being explored?

At least with Star Wars, it feels like a world moreso than DB where it's very much one character's story. Given the Star Wars is literally about warfare, that lends itself to an extended universe more than DB which isn't like that at all. It's a theme with many dimensions to explore. DB is about one man's journey of constant self-improvement.

[DBZAOTA482]

Let's not forget Oob is docile so he has all sorts of room for improvement in fact he was learning how to fight while fighting with Goku at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Gohan and Goten are already trained fighters so Goku has no real reason to take them under his tutelage.

[Mister_Popo]

Broly was boring. It's a bunch of fanservice.

Broly wasn't so much about Gokus journey to self-improvement. TOP was about Gokus self-improvement, but in the movie Broly emphasis was more on other themes like background of the Saiyans and exploiting Brolys past and character. Goku and Vegeta were still the protagonists, but it didn't feel like a Goku-centered story to me. Goku and Vegeta were very present in the fighting part, but the "story part" was mainly about Broly. The movie somehow proved it's possible to write DB-related stories, where Goku is still involved, that focuss on other characters as well. Brolys reboot wasn't bad for once, as long as they don't start rebooting every popular villain that hasn't been canonized yet. That would be the very easy path to success i would dislike.

If Toriyama throws his hat and his "story of Son Goku" has ended, why shouldn't they give it at least a try to exploit other aspects of the Dragonverse (maybe Gokus story doesn't necessarily have to be finished for that)? It would be intresting to see other stories / spin-offs given a chance within available or new Dragonverse lore, were it only to see if it fits or fails.

And yes, if it would end, it ends. I thought it had ended a long time ago more than 20 years ago and i was perfectly fine with that. Now it appears not to have ended and is not going to anytime soon, i try to make the best of it, and give each new content at least a chance before i jugde it's bad.

[ABED]

Broly was centered around backstory we already knew and didn't need explored. Not every DB story has to be centered on Goku for DB to still be his story, if that makes any sense. "Broly" proved nothing. It's already been established that DB can have stories that aren't centered around Goku's journey for the series overall to be about Goku. You're missing the point. DB isn't some ever expanding universe centered on something more abstract.

If Toriyama throws his hat and his "story of Son Goku" has ended, why shouldn't they give it at least a try to exploit other aspects of the Dragonverse (maybe Gokus story doesn't necessarily have to be finished for that)? It would be intresting to see other stories / spin-offs given a chance within available or new Dragonverse lore, were it only to see if it fits or fails.

And yes, if it would end, it ends. I thought it had ended a long time ago more than 20 years ago and i was perfectly fine with that. Now it appears not to have ended and is not going to anytime soon, i try to make the best of it, and give each new content at least a chance before i jugde it's bad.

DB isn't about lore. Lore is boring. I'm not even against a spin-off but it has to be about a character, not lore. Even then, DB has gone on for so long and was never about that world to begin with, why should the series just end and move on to something else?

I'm not even saying the new material is bad. I feel like that point is getting lost, somehow. It's not bad, just boring because the magic is gone.

Let's not forget Oob is docile so he has all sorts of room for improvement in fact he was learning how to fight while fighting with Goku at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Been there, done that.

[Mister_Popo]

Broly was centered around backstory we already knew and didn't need explored. Not every DB story has to be centered on Goku for DB to still be his story, if that makes any sense. "Broly" proved nothing. It's already been established that DB can have stories that aren't centered around Goku's journey for the series overall to be about Goku. You're missing the point. DB isn't some ever expanding universe centered on something more abstract.

If Toriyama throws his hat and his "story of Son Goku" has ended, why shouldn't they give it at least a try to exploit other aspects of the Dragonverse (maybe Gokus story doesn't necessarily have to be finished for that)? It would be intresting to see other stories / spin-offs given a chance within available or new Dragonverse lore, were it only to see if it fits or fails.

And yes, if it would end, it ends. I thought it had ended a long time ago more than 20 years ago and i was perfectly fine with that. Now it appears not to have ended and is not going to anytime soon, i try to make the best of it, and give each new content at least a chance before i jugde it's bad.

DB isn't about lore. Lore is boring. I'm not even against a spin-off but it has to be about a character, not lore. Even then, DB has gone on for so long and was never about that world to begin with, why should the series just end and move on to something else?

I'm not even saying the new material is bad. I feel like that point is getting lost, somehow. It's not bad, just boring because the magic is gone.

Let's not forget Oob is docile so he has all sorts of room for improvement in fact he was learning how to fight while fighting with Goku at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

Been there, done that.

With 'lore' i was referring to another possible setting in time and space (place that exists) within the Dragonverse.
Not earth and not centered around Goku. They played around more with those aspects in 'Broly' in stead of choosing the classic straightforward path. I appreciated that approach.

Even if Gokus journey is still one of the main themes, movies like Broly show or confirm you can have storylines within the Dragonverse that are basically centered around other themes and be somehow refreshing. Goku and Vegeta didn't broke their limits, they only learned an already existing technique from Piccolo. For the rest the movie was mainly about Broly and the Saiyans.

As long as intresting sidesteps from time to time are being made to other, new or existing characters, i honestly don't mind Gokus journey is still on.

[ABED]

I know what you meant by lore, I just don't find the concept inherently interesting, nor do I think most people. What really sticks with people is character, story, and theme.

Even if Gokus journey is still one of the main themes, movies like Broly show or confirm you can have storylines within the Dragonverse that are basically centered around other themes and be somehow refreshing. Goku and Vegeta didn't broke their limits, they only learned an already existing technique from Piccolo. For the rest the movie was mainly about Broly and the Saiyans.

As long as intresting sidesteps from time to time are being made to other, new or existing characters, i honestly don't mind Gokus journey is still on.

I don't know why you keep reiterating your point about Broly and stories like it showing you can have stories that aren't centered on Goku. I know that. I'm not arguing every single story has to revolve around Goku. What do I have to say for people to finally understand it?

[Mister_Popo]

I know what you meant by lore, I just don't find the concept inherently interesting, nor do I think most people. What really sticks with people is character, story, and theme.

Even if Gokus journey is still one of the main themes, movies like Broly show or confirm you can have storylines within the Dragonverse that are basically centered around other themes and be somehow refreshing. Goku and Vegeta didn't broke their limits, they only learned an already existing technique from Piccolo. For the rest the movie was mainly about Broly and the Saiyans.

As long as intresting sidesteps from time to time are being made to other, new or existing characters, i honestly don't mind Gokus journey is still on.

I don't know why you keep reiterating your point about Broly and stories like it showing you can have stories that aren't centered on Goku. I know that. I'm not arguing every single story has to revolve around Goku. What do I have to say for people to finally understand it?

"DB is about one man's journey of constant self-improvement." This was your saying to argument no more magic or compelling stories can be written? If i understand you right. In that case i disagree. This thread is about 'are you happy the revival happened'? I just gave arguments why i don't care about the fact Gokus journey is still on as long it has good stories to offer and dares to take sidesteps. With Broly they somehow delivered, laying the focuss on other aspects. For me it's how it's all written and presented, not about the fact Gokus journey is still on. It's always been the center theme, so it doesn't bother me as such. I can follow you however Gokus journey somewhere needs an ending. I think at a certain point Toriyama will in effect conclude his investment in a fitting way. At least his part of the story. The man can't go on till he's 120.

If you think differently about this, be my guest.

[ABED]

It's a little more nuanced than the magic is gone and therefore no more compelling stories can be written. There are some good, maybe even great new elements, but the overall level of quality and specialness is gone.

For me it's how it's all written and presented,

What do you think I'm arguing? Of course it's all how it's written and presented. That's partially what I'm talking about when I say the magic is gone. It's not as well written or presented any more. It's largely retreading what has been done before. Broly is a great example of what I'm talking about. We've been there done that.

We've already had several fitting endings. I don't know what they could possibly do that would be more fitting for Goku than discover he has more mountains to climb.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I don't know what they could possibly do that would be more fitting for Goku than discover he has more mountains to climb.

That's what any protagonist does. They climb mountains. It's the type of mountain that may or may not make it interesting. What they could do is give Goku a different (but related) type of mountain than the one he constantly gets.

[Bansho64]

I don't want to give anything away for those that do want to see Terminator: Dark Fate, but DF doesn't invalidate the conclusion of T2's plot, but it does undercut it thematically.

Big time. As much as the film attempts to connect to T2 with homages to it and the addition of Linda Hamilton (who made this movie a lot more bearable IMO), it really doesn't match up to it at all. I feel like they put so much focus on making it feel like the sequel, but the actual plot and new characters are stale as cardboard.

To tie this into the main topic, I feel this way with a lot of the newer characters and scenes in some of the newer material we've gotten out of Dragon Ball. There's so many homages to past material and different things included, but the actual plot itself can sometimes be just dry or even bad. I love Future Trunks and liked seeing him in some of the Future Trunks arc, but at the same time, there's a lot of issues with that arc IMO.