Izanagi wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 5:34 pm
Sadala Elite wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 1:43 amYou seem to have a really bad sense of what makes good character writing.
No, I just don't turn to look at Dragon Ball for good character writing and I never did. None of the characters are especially well-written, compared to other works in its genre both in its time and in the contemporary, most of the Dragon Ball characters are either underdeveloped (the Earthlings), neglected by the author (Piccolo) or plot devices defined by simple gimmicks (Bulma). Some are more fortunate like Vegeta and even so, Toriyama is not above using the character as a plot device even if it means making him look irredeemable.
Once again, settling down and starting a family doesn't make you a better person (and it doesn't even change most people at all). Hell, Vegeta was a relationship with Bulma for 3 years before the arrival of the Androids, and that didn't make him any less villainous of a character at all.
Character development doesn't need to be explicit, it can also be subtle and Vegeta developed prior to the Boo arc during the seven year timeskip. He was incredibly mad when Cell killed Trunks and through the latter's influence, he settled down with Bulma and retired from fighting, just training and got on friendly terms with the other Z Warriors such as Kuririn. Vegeta and Bulma weren't married until after Cell's demise. She just had a fling with Vegeta because Yamcha cheated on her and that relationship ended before Trunks was born. If there were any evil desires left in him, he'd have done something during those seven years, he didn't and his rematch with Goku was supposed to be friendly and he never showed any malice before getting in Babidi's ship.
Majin Vegeta was the natural, logical result of years of frustration and resentment he had throughout the series. It would have been bad writing (and out of character) if that subplot or something like it never happened, and before his fight with Fat Buu, Vegeta has never been the type of guy to care about the fate of the world (this is the same guy who let Cell reach his Perfect form just for his own ego, so there's nothing forced nor out of character about him being the cause of Buu's revival).
That's your prerogative. I like his development but it often seems inconsistent. Like saying he'll never fight again after the Cell Games, but showing no signs of retirement when we see him again or him never showing any signs of malice before getting in Babidi's ship. I'm also on the sentiment that Majin Piccolo would've worked better as an adversary than Vegeta because Piccolo and Goku actually respects one another as do Piccolo and Gohan so him going evil again would've meant something. With Vegeta, its just the same old with a coat of barely existing paint telling us, "No guys! He's totally not super evil anymore! Even though he's done exactly jack and shit to prove this!"
Vegeta is the only ex-villain in the franchise to actually be written and treated like an ex-villain, and its part of what makes his character stand out.
Vegeta's crimes never gets addressed. The guy literally got away with genocide and several counts of mass murder on Earth and Namek. Even bragged that they never got resurrected, yet everyone ignores this because he married Bulma and he's technically too strong to kill without Goku, that's why even Toriyama has gone on record saying there are no life lessons in his stories and doesn't spread any value, because you end up with a mess.
Once again, you prove to have no idea what good writing is lmao. And you're still using the "settling down makes you good" fallacy.
"He was incredibly mad when Cell killed Trunks and through the latter's influence, he settled down with Bulma and retired from fighting, just training and got on friendly terms with the other Z Warriors such as Kuririn."
- 1st of all, getting mad at Cell for killing Trunks isn't really a sign of turning good (evil folks can feel family ties too), nor is getting married. 2nd, no, he was not at all in friendly terms with the rest of the Z-fighters (especially Goku) until the end of the Buu saga, idk what show you're watching. 3rd, Vegeta had no incentive to go on any villainous rampage during the 7 year gap (Goku was dead, Gohan retired and no new powerful enemy appeared on Earth during the time period, so he just wasted away at Capsule Corp.), that doesn't mean the desire wasn't still there.
- Majin Piccolo would have been an extremely stupid idea lol, because Piccolo had absolutely no reason or incentive to ever turn evil again, especially if he respects Goku like you say (the fact that you would even consider it a good idea discredits anything you have to say about DB's writing lmao).
Any malice Piccolo had for Goku (or in general) basically died after the Raditz fight. His beef/rivalry with Goku wasn't even driven by the same things as Vegeta's rivalry. Piccolo's was simply motivated by revenge against Goku killing his dad/past self, he was never about being the strongest in the universe, greatest fighter, etc. When he finally got it (Raditz fight), he didn't get any gratification from it and it basically ended there.
- "No guys! He's totally not super evil anymore! Even though he's done exactly jack and shit to prove this!"
Wrong again lmao.The only time the Buu Saga actually starts to portray Vegeta as "not evil anymore" was during the Fat Buu fight, which was also the first time Vegeta actively sought out to make up for any past wrongdoings. So that's a BS complaint you made.
- "Vegeta's crimes never gets addressed. The guy literally got away with genocide and several counts of mass murder on Earth and Namek."
More BS lmao. Vegeta until the end of the Buu saga was treated and viewed with contempt and suspicion by the rest of the Z-crew (except Bulma's parents who don't really know his past lol), exactly because of his past crimes and actions.
Goku flat out stated that he hated him until he gave his death speech on Namek, Piccolo flat out tells Vegeta that he's going straight to Hell right before he makes his sacrifice, the Human fighters were particularly hostile to him in every scene they shared with him before the later Buu arc, when he gets injured, people werent in any rush to help him, etc. He is the only ex-villain to ever get this kind of treatment by the rest of the cast (all the other were immediately befriended more or less). The only reason they tolerated his presence was due to then having to deal with even worse, more powerful villains than him.
The only characters before the end of Z to even try to make some kind of positive connection with him are Goku, Bulma (and her family), the Trunks' and to a lesser extent Gohan, yet even they were often just as hostile to him then.