Should fans write for official products ?

[LoganForkHands73]

I think it's a prerequisite that if a writer is to succeed another in writing for an ongoing franchise that they at least have some passion and familiarity with the preceding work, but yeah, the major hurdles have already been said in this thread by the looks of it. Some writers let their own fanboy/girlish interests get in the way of actually telling a story. And obviously fans who aren't professional writers don't tend to have good ideas on storytelling at all, so overly pandering to them isn't a good way to go if you want to maintain integrity. Grant Morrison is an excellent writer who happens to be a massive continuity nerd and references obscure past characters and concepts in almost every licensed property he writes for, but he really is that good that he can generally get away with doing it. However, there have been times where it's become gratuitous and distracting.

I think Toyotaro sometimes lets his desire to meet "fan expectations" get in the way. It's been seen in his inclusion of Vegetto in the Black arc and I can't help but see a lot of pointless lore pedantry throughout the Moro arc, like a conversation about Kid Buu possessing some variant of god ki. I can understand that being revealed in some interview or guidebook or a story that's actually relevant to Kid Buu, but what does it add to the current events aside from revising a past detail? It's not all bad as I liked the tidbit about their being two Yardrat species to save potential confusion which he said was entirely his idea, but it also counts as an example of Toyotaro pandering to a very small subset of hardcore fans with a detail that most would never notice or care about.

[JulieYBM]

Hey, maybe Dragon Ball should be public domain so everyone can create whatever they want and consumers can support which projects they like?

[Matches Malone]

Hey, maybe Dragon Ball should be public domain so everyone can create whatever they want and consumers can support which projects they like?

The people who created DB and own it are still alive and well, so forcing them to give up their property would just be stealing. If you created a successful product, would you want it taken away from you ?

[jjgp1112]

Hey, maybe Dragon Ball should be public domain so everyone can create whatever they want and consumers can support which projects they like?

Gross. Why would anyone with any say-so do that to begin with, and how would not result in anything but disaster? Dragon Ball's already diluted enough, we don't need a bunch of wackos making whatever nonsensical bullshit they want out of its properties (*cough Evolution *cough*) Dragon Ball is Akira Toriyama's first and foremost.

Ownership of ideas are important and corporations have every reason and right to want to protect their brands. DB's not some community fanfiction.

[Matches Malone]

We don't need a bunch of wackos making whatever nonsensical bullshit they want out of its properties.

Fans already do that in the form of fan fiction, so I don't understand the need to take away their property in order to do something that's already being done, and has been done for decades.

[JulieYBM]

I have zero interest in being the fluffer for millionaires' rights over a 30+ year old franchise that has generated billions. Copyright law is entirely broken and we should be critical of IP holders and punch up often to keep the financially powerful in place.

[Matches Malone]

Copyright law is entirely broken and we should be critical of IP holders and punch up often to keep the financially powerful in place.

What would society gain in Toriyama and friends losing the rights to DB ? I think there are more important issues we should be fighting for, like providing drinking water to those who don't have access to it.

[JulieYBM]

Copyright law is entirely broken and we should be critical of IP holders and punch up often to keep the financially powerful in place.

What would society gain in Toriyama and friends losing the rights to DB ? I think there are more important issues we should be fighting for, like providing drinking water to those who don't have access to it.

This would apply to all IP. Technological advances, medical advances and entertainment/art advances--all advancements belong to the people. This "Wait x number of years for someone to die" bullshit is the dumbest thing ever. Toriyama could die today (hopefully not) and Dragon Ball would not belong to the public--which made all these parties so wealthy--until 2090. What kind of bullshit is that?

Reading the title of the thread gave me a very simply thought: the idea of "official products" for a 30+ year old comic that has since also generated billions in profits for a small number of people is categorically insane-sounding.

[ekrolo2]

Fans getting to officially write a product is is just like anything, it can be good, bad or anything in-between. Dragon Ball is pretty consistently shit at it save a few jokes from the Yamcha manga.

[ABED]

Copyright law is entirely broken and we should be critical of IP holders and punch up often to keep the financially powerful in place.

What would society gain in Toriyama and friends losing the rights to DB ? I think there are more important issues we should be fighting for, like providing drinking water to those who don't have access to it.

This would apply to all IP. Technological advances, medical advances and entertainment/art advances--all advancements belong to the people. This "Wait x number of years for someone to die" bullshit is the dumbest thing ever. Toriyama could die today (hopefully not) and Dragon Ball would not belong to the public--which made all these parties so wealthy--until 2090. What kind of bullshit is that?

Reading the title of the thread gave me a very simply thought: the idea of "official products" for a 30+ year old comic that has since also generated billions in profits for a small number of people is categorically insane-sounding.

Yes, it belongs to the people who created them or bought them. There's nothing wrong with people getting wealthy. It's reciprocal. We benefited by getting a cool story. They benefited when we paid them in recognition of that value which we deemed more than the money.

[Matches Malone]

This would apply to all IP. Technological advances, medical advances and entertainment/art advances--all advancements belong to the people.

So if you created or worked hard for something, someone who just sits around has the right to share the profits with you ? It's easy to be entitled to the profits of others, but something tells me you'd be against others being entitled to your profits. For 10 years straight, Toriyama literally put his back, arm, and mind through hell to make DB happen, so him, his family, and all who helped make it a reality have every right to profit off it for as long as possible.

[ekrolo2]

This would apply to all IP. Technological advances, medical advances and entertainment/art advances--all advancements belong to the people.

So if you created or worked hard for something, someone who just sits around has the right to share the profits with you ? It's easy to be entitled to the profits of others, but something tells me you'd be against other being entitled to your profits.

I'd be the first to tell such an idea to fuck off. You wanna make something of mine freely available a hundred something years after I'm dead? Sure, whatever. Making my thing available to anyone and everyone within my own lifetime? Hell naw.

[JulieYBM]

This would apply to all IP. Technological advances, medical advances and entertainment/art advances--all advancements belong to the people.

So if you created or worked hard for something, someone who just sits around has the right to share the profits with you ? It's easy to be entitled to the profits of others, but something tells me you'd be against others being entitled to your profits. For 10 years straight, Toriyama literally put his back, arm, and mind through hell to make DB happen, so him, his family, and all who helped make it a reality have every right to profit off it for as long as possible.

So long as history isn't erased and I receive ye olden original author credit on all derivative works and have financial security (which, fuck, the government should be providing to everyone anyway) I don't care if my IP enters the public domain. It won't stop me from making derivative works based on it, why should it stop someone else from making derivative works and a few bucks based on it? Fuck, this is just me talking about art and not something important, like life-saving medicine or advances in technology. We live in the real world, not Monopoly. Nobody should be allowed to be the sole owner of something that absorbs so much wealth.

Toriyama was massively wealthy from making Doctor Slump and was massively wealthy from Dragon Ball by the time it finally took off in the 1990s. I'll punch up at him at the drop of a dime.

I genuinely think it's insane that a comic from 1984--that has rapidly generated billions in profit off the backs of the people--is allowed to remain in the hands only of those one person deems. The public has bought those rights from Toriyama multiple times over.

[Zestanor]

Copyright law is entirely broken and we should be critical of IP holders and punch up often to keep the financially powerful in place.

We already have a pretty airtight system for this: file sharing. They won't admit it, but it keeps everyone happy, even the guys at the very top.

[jjgp1112]

This would apply to all IP. Technological advances, medical advances and entertainment/art advances--all advancements belong to the people.

So if you created or worked hard for something, someone who just sits around has the right to share the profits with you ? It's easy to be entitled to the profits of others, but something tells me you'd be against others being entitled to your profits. For 10 years straight, Toriyama literally put his back, arm, and mind through hell to make DB happen, so him, his family, and all who helped make it a reality have every right to profit off it for as long as possible.

So long as history isn't erased and I receive ye olden original author credit on all derivative works and have financial security (which, fuck, the government should be providing to everyone anyway) I don't care if my IP enters the public domain. It won't stop me from making derivative works based on it, why should it stop someone else from making derivative works and a few bucks based on it? Fuck, this is just me talking about art and not something important, like life-saving medicine or advances in technology. We live in the real world, not Monopoly. Nobody should be allowed to be the sole owner of something that absorbs so much wealth.

Toriyama was massively wealthy from making Doctor Slump and was massively wealthy from Dragon Ball by the time it finally took off in the 1990s. I'll punch up at him at the drop of a dime.

I genuinely think it's insane that a comic from 1984--that has rapidly generated billions in profit off the backs of the people--is allowed to remain in the hands only of those one person deems. The public has bought those rights from Toriyama multiple times over.

I think it's pretty clear that most of us fundamentally don't see eye to eye with you on this.

[Robo4900]

Hey, maybe Dragon Ball should be public domain so everyone can create whatever they want and consumers can support which projects they like?

The people who created DB and own it are still alive and well, so forcing them to give up their property would just be stealing. If you created a successful product, would you want it taken away from you ?

Hardware patents only last 20 years, so why should media patents last like 150?

After 20 years, a media property will have almost certainly gone as far for its creator as a hardware patent would ever go for its inventor with the advantage of sole ability to produce it...
There's no reason Toriyama and Toei couldn't continue to produce new Dragon Ball if the franchise was public domain, and likely there would be a lot of prestige behind the original authors creating it, but if it was public domain, any creative would be free to do with the property as they wish, which would potentially allow for far better, more interesting works created by other authors.

I suggest, if you're interested in this subject, you take a look at this video by Tom Scott: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU
Though, the video is 40 minutes long, so... Apologies if you don't have the time. But I do recommend making the time for it, it's possibly Tom Scott's best work. He measures up pros and cons of copyright as it exists, of changing it, of how it could be changed, etc. Very good viewing.

Gross. Why would anyone with any say-so do that to begin with, and how would not result in anything but disaster? Dragon Ball's already diluted enough, we don't need a bunch of wackos making whatever nonsensical bullshit they want out of its properties (*cough Evolution *cough*) Dragon Ball is Akira Toriyama's first and foremost.

Ownership of ideas are important and corporations have every reason and right to want to protect their brands. DB's not some community fanfiction.

Except historically, that's always how stories have worked. Anyone can do their own version of Little Red Riding Hood, Sherlock Holmes, the 1001 Arabian Nights, Frankenstein, Dracula, Jane Eyre, Christmas Carol... So why not also Superman, Dragon Ball, Bugs Bunny, Private Snafu, etc.?
The intent was always that, much like a hardware patent, you invent it, you get to do with it as you wish for a while, then copyright expires, and either you continue doing it yourself but now with competition that consumers may be more interested in, or you move onto the next thing.

If, in your lifetime, you only come up with one worthwhile idea that grabs people, you still get 20 years to make as much money as you can off it, and you can still keep making new stuff with it after that, just with competition this time around, potentially from better content creators than you, who could do far more interesting things with it.
But, really, most successful creatives have far more than one good idea. (As is the case for Toriyama, who could have comfortably retired after Doctor Slump, but kept going for another 11 years to give us Dragon Ball)

And, of course, public domain would solve problematic copyright entanglements; the never-rereleased final Commander Keen game could finally see a digital release, creatives who made neat things but lost the rights to a company who has no interest in making a new iteration but also has no interest in selling the rights would eventually no longer have any power, so the original creator could return to the work, and continue/conclude it.

Right now, copyright on most media lasts for the lifetime of all involved in its creation, plus 70 years (a timeframe which continually increases as Disney lobbies to keep Steamboat Willie in copyright). In theory, the idea is that this supports the creator's family, though I've always thought this was stupid as hell... Your dad made a thing people liked, so you get to earn tons of money throughout your entire life for doing nothing. It's NUTS. It completely goes against every principle that capitalism is allegedly supposed to be for; everyone's supposed to get an even change to strike out on their own and be self-sufficient... But if your mum happened to invent the most popular character in media, you'll be rolling in it your entire life without ever having to lift a finger. It makes no sense.

As it stands, the only reason copyright lasts as long as it does is because it makes Disney a lot of money for Steamboat Willie to stay in copyright. And, because of the amount of money this shit makes, it's never gonna change (unless we just adopted a "use it or lose it" system, so orphaned works get to go into public domain, but stuff that continually makes money like Superman gets to stay in copyright).

[JulieYBM]

Here's my compromise solution, since I live in the US--which does not offer financial security to every citizen: $10,000,000 (a pretty ridiculous amount far and beyond basic financial security and into the realm of enjoying ridiculous wealth) or twenty years, whichever comes first. If you're an 18 year old who publishes a book and it (somehow?) makes you $10,000,000 instantly the book goes to public domain. If you hit twenty years since publication no matter if you've hit $10,000,000 profit too fuckin' bad fuck off Julie nobody wants your shitty romance novels.

[Robo4900]

Here's my compromise solution, since I live in the US--which does not offer financial security to every citizen: $10,000,000 (a pretty ridiculous amount far and beyond basic financial security and into the realm of enjoying ridiculous wealth) or twenty years, whichever comes first. If you're an 18 year old who publishes a book and it (somehow?) makes you $10,000,000 instantly the book goes to public domain. If you hit twenty years since publication no matter if you've hit $10,000,000 profit too fuckin' bad fuck off Julie nobody wants your shitty romance novels.

That fundamentally doesn't work on big works; if $10,000,000 was the cutoff, then the movie Infinity War would have gone into public domain in its first weekend, so no movie of that scale would ever be created again; copyright law should protect creators and encourage creative endeavour; a ten million dollar cutoff would only stifle creative endeavour. And in general, I think deciding what amount of money is "too much money" is dangerous, and will vary with inflation, country, etc. And if something like this was instituted, then companies would find ways to get around it; Hollywood accounting is already a thing that can sometimes lead certain people to not get the royalties they're due.
A 20-year cutoff has always made the most sense to me; treat it just like a hardware patent. You get 20 years to earn as much money as you'll ever earn on one single work (which is a fucking long-ass time, in fairness ), as well as 20 years to make new instalments of that work uncontested, then it becomes a free for all.

But, that said, I don't think any monetary or time cutoff would work anyway in the real world. Companies like Disney would use all their power to prevent anything like that happening.

The best we can hope for at the moment is to just instate a "Use it or lose it" thing to protect orphaned works. Say, if a specific work hasn't been available for public consumption in 7 years, then it goes out of copyright. And any characters, stories, etc. that debuted in that work become public domain at the same time.

But, it would be nice if copyright only lasted 20 years.

[Zestanor]

@JulieYBM

That's not how wealth works.

Besides, it's not like Toriyama making bank is taking away from you somehow. What good does taking it away from him do?

Edit: quoting you in this so you see it amid the other very long responses.

.

[JulieYBM]

That fundamentally doesn't work on big works; if $10,000,000 was the cutoff, then the movie Infinity War would have gone into public domain in its first weekend, so no movie of that scale would ever be created again. And in general, I think deciding what amount of money is "too much money" is dangerous, and will vary with inflation, country, etc. And if something like this was instituted, then companies would find ways to get around it; Hollywood accounting is already a thing that can sometimes lead certain people to not get the royalties they're due.
A 20-year cutoff has always made the most sense to me; treat it just like a hardware patent. You get 20 years to earn as much money as you'll ever earn uncontested, then it becomes a free for all.

But, that said, I don't think any monetary or time cutoff would work anyway in the real world. Companies like Disney would use all their power to prevent anything like that happening.

The best we can hope for at the moment is to just instate a "Use it or lose it" thing to protect orphaned works. Say, if a specific work hasn't been available for public consumption in 7 years, then it goes out of copyright. And any characters, stories, etc. that debuted in that work become public domain at the same time.

That's $10,000,000 profit, I should add. Which means the production budget has been made back and now the film's made $10,000,000 profit. This means the film enters public domain and can be adapted or sold by anyone. Of course, Disney already being a massive studio is going to be able to do those things quite easily and quickly. Mind you, though, Endgame is already based on a lot of concepts and characters that would already fall under public domain at that point.

Again, the $10,000,000 figure is just a random number that at present seems ridiculously high. In practice that figure would be different because I chose the figure for a book based on the idea of "Well, the cost of creating and publishing is minute in comparison".

Profit consolidation needs to be capped, however. A progressive tax system would help with that but adding in a "Christ, you've made all this money so quickly? Fuck off, your dumb movie/book/whatever now belongs to the public" would make things better.