"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kagari]

So, aside from the bullshit ending that predictably sets us up for Goku to take the real win after Vegeta deserved it...

This was a really good chapter, IMO. Solid character stuff from Vegeta and Piccolo, I like Vegeta's solution being to force Moro to fight with his own (rather puny) strength, etc.
There's extra layers to Piccolo's talk about Vegeta trying to "wipe the slate clean"; Piccolo is presumably talking from experience, with his own attempts to wipe the slate clean after reincarnating from his Daimao form...

But, critically, I'm getting the sense in this chapter that the Super manga is gearing up to lead to an ending of sorts. Piccolo's whole speech, the stuff about Vegeta, it's giving me a major finale feel.

Probably not even that. A group effort or something else entirely. The chapter ends with the main group getting ready to fight so that'll likely happen next month. Y'all seem to forget DB antagonists aren't beaten cleanly by one person outside of a few examples.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Merus intervening makes way more sense than Beerus. Beerus has literally played no role this arc except a minor scene here or there.

Whis is standing right behind him. Even if Merus wanted to help, he can't do anything while Whis is watching him. Whis is trying to avoid getting the Grand Priest angry and keeping Merus alive at the same time. Whis likes Moro just as much as Merus does, but he knows damn well where that rabbit hole goes and that its going to be HIS fault if Merus dies.

[Robo4900]

So, aside from the bullshit ending that predictably sets us up for Goku to take the real win after Vegeta deserved it...

This was a really good chapter, IMO. Solid character stuff from Vegeta and Piccolo, I like Vegeta's solution being to force Moro to fight with his own (rather puny) strength, etc.
There's extra layers to Piccolo's talk about Vegeta trying to "wipe the slate clean"; Piccolo is presumably talking from experience, with his own attempts to wipe the slate clean after reincarnating from his Daimao form...

But, critically, I'm getting the sense in this chapter that the Super manga is gearing up to lead to an ending of sorts. Piccolo's whole speech, the stuff about Vegeta, it's giving me a major finale feel.

Probably not even that. A group effort or something else entirely. The chapter ends with the main group getting ready to fight so that'll likely happen next month. Y'all seem to forget DB antagonists aren't beaten cleanly by one person outside of a few examples.

Eh, it'll be a "Group effort", but Goku will be the real victor. As is the case in the following arcs:

Pilaf, Red Ribbon, Piccolo Daimao, 23rd Tenkaichi, Namek, Boo, Baby, Evil Dragons, Resurrection F, Black arc, arguably the TOP, DB movies 1 and 3, DBZ movies 1-8, 12-13, ResF, and arguably Broly.

[The Undying]

Even if others have forgiven him, he's hardly repented his fair share even now. Even so, I don't think that line is meant to be taken overly literally. Vegeta loves projecting a ruthless image, especially to his enemies. I see this more as grandstanding than anything, and a fuck you to that power-stealing goat.

Completely agreed.

Vegeta's behavior is practically the embodiment of the tsundere archetype. People should never interpret his dialogue so literally, especially in a chapter like this one where the overall context and subtext are both abundantly clear. It feels incredibly dishonest to parse his words ("I'm a villain too", "I'm going to hell too", etc.) in the most literal manner possible to get the gist of what he's saying when his actual point, and Piccolo's point, is that he consistently strives to do better.

One of my favorite things about Vegeta is that he continues to atone, grow and improve, even long after his buds were already convinced he put the work in. He's approaching his fighting potential in largely the same way now. His work ethic is top tier stuff.

This is just awful, and shows that Toyotaro isn't anywhere near ready as a writer to take over.

I disagree here.

I think Toyotaro has a better understanding of the characters than his modern contemporaries, even if his characterization isn't nearly as good as Toriyama's. For me, it's his pacing and story structure that are pretty abysmal when left unchecked.

The Super manga will never come close to reaching the heights of the original manga, but I'll gladly die on that "it's the closest attempt by far" hill. I'm also fairly positive that Toriyama has more involvement with this particular story arc than people might believe.

[Kagari]

So, aside from the bullshit ending that predictably sets us up for Goku to take the real win after Vegeta deserved it...

This was a really good chapter, IMO. Solid character stuff from Vegeta and Piccolo, I like Vegeta's solution being to force Moro to fight with his own (rather puny) strength, etc.
There's extra layers to Piccolo's talk about Vegeta trying to "wipe the slate clean"; Piccolo is presumably talking from experience, with his own attempts to wipe the slate clean after reincarnating from his Daimao form...

But, critically, I'm getting the sense in this chapter that the Super manga is gearing up to lead to an ending of sorts. Piccolo's whole speech, the stuff about Vegeta, it's giving me a major finale feel.

Probably not even that. A group effort or something else entirely. The chapter ends with the main group getting ready to fight so that'll likely happen next month. Y'all seem to forget DB antagonists aren't beaten cleanly by one person outside of a few examples.

Eh, it'll be a "Group effort", but Goku will be the real victor. As is the case in the following arcs:

Pilaf, Red Ribbon, Piccolo Daimao, 23rd Tenkaichi, Namek, Boo, Baby, Evil Dragons, Resurrection F, Black arc, arguably the TOP, DB movies 1 and 3, DBZ movies 1-8, 12-13, ResF, and arguably Broly.

I'm strictly talking about the original series and DBS. The movies and GT did whatever and probably helped feed into the mindset that "Goku always wins" when he doesn't.

[TKA]

I think Toyotaro has a better understanding of the characters than his modern contemporaries.

The Super manga will never come close to reaching the heights of the original manga, but I'll gladly die on that "it's the closest attempt by far" hill.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

But he needs a writing training arc, while locked in the room of space and time with Toriyama.

Better than his contemporaries when his contemporaries are so awful is the definition of damned by faint praise haha.

[DiscountDabi]

Can we just mention that It was mentioned somewhere that Toriyama approves of and even changes thing that are in the manga for this arc. Meaning what I’m gonna call Super Moro’s Design was probably given the ok.

I know he looks like a fanfic character but its really hard to call it that when the man himself approves

[Kagari]

Can we just mention that It was mentioned somewhere that Toriyama approves of and even changes thing that are in the manga for this arc. Meaning what I’m gonna call Super Moro’s Design was probably given the ok.

I know he looks like a fanfic character but its really hard to call it that when the man himself approves

Toriyama approving something doesn't mean it's automatically good though. He even approves things like Toyo's take on Goku, which has been problematic for years at this point. His approval holds no weight IMO.

[DiscountDabi]

Can we just mention that It was mentioned somewhere that Toriyama approves of and even changes thing that are in the manga for this arc. Meaning what I’m gonna call Super Moro’s Design was probably given the ok.

I know he looks like a fanfic character but its really hard to call it that when the man himself approves

Toriyama approving something doesn't mean it's automatically good though. He even approves things like Toyo's take on Goku, which has been problematic for years at this point. His approval holds no weight IMO.

I know. It is strange and I wish he looked more Goat like. I’m just saying you can’t really call it a “Fanfiction” when Toriyama went along with it.

[Kagari]

Can we just mention that It was mentioned somewhere that Toriyama approves of and even changes thing that are in the manga for this arc. Meaning what I’m gonna call Super Moro’s Design was probably given the ok.

I know he looks like a fanfic character but its really hard to call it that when the man himself approves

Toriyama approving something doesn't mean it's automatically good though. He even approves things like Toyo's take on Goku, which has been problematic for years at this point. His approval holds no weight IMO.

I know. It is strange and I wish he looked more Goat like. I’m just saying you can’t really call it a “Fanfiction” when Toriyama went along with it.

I think using "fan fiction" as a negative descriptor is a bit misguided anyway. There's actually some really good ones around if you look.

[Kinokima]

There is a lot of fanfiction better than the official stuff

[HeroR]

So, aside from the bullshit ending that predictably sets us up for Goku to take the real win after Vegeta deserved it...

This was a really good chapter, IMO. Solid character stuff from Vegeta and Piccolo, I like Vegeta's solution being to force Moro to fight with his own (rather puny) strength, etc.
There's extra layers to Piccolo's talk about Vegeta trying to "wipe the slate clean"; Piccolo is presumably talking from experience, with his own attempts to wipe the slate clean after reincarnating from his Daimao form...

But, critically, I'm getting the sense in this chapter that the Super manga is gearing up to lead to an ending of sorts. Piccolo's whole speech, the stuff about Vegeta, it's giving me a major finale feel.

Probably not even that. A group effort or something else entirely. The chapter ends with the main group getting ready to fight so that'll likely happen next month. Y'all seem to forget DB antagonists aren't beaten cleanly by one person outside of a few examples.

Eh, it'll be a "Group effort", but Goku will be the real victor. As is the case in the following arcs:

Pilaf, Red Ribbon, Piccolo Daimao, 23rd Tenkaichi, Namek, Boo, Baby, Evil Dragons, Resurrection F, Black arc, arguably the TOP, DB movies 1 and 3, DBZ movies 1-8, 12-13, ResF, and arguably Broly.

Future Trunks Saga is far more Trunks than Goku with Goku only pushing the button. At least in the anime. And did you mentioned Resurrection 'F' twice?

That and how is Broly even here? All Goku did was suggested fusing, Gogeta did the rest.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Complaining about the design of Moro is a bit odd considering that Dragon Ball as a whole hasn't really had a good original character design since Beerus and Whis except for maybe Hit.

[HeroR]

There is a lot of fanfiction better than the official stuff

Agreed. When I used the term 'fanfic' I'm usually talking about specific plot points or ideas I often see in fanfic, not a question in quality. I mean, I write fanfiction. That or I'm talking about Dragon Ball Heroes which is pretty much official fanfiction.

What this arc has shown me is that Toyo really needs an editor because whoever is doing it now, Toriyama or someone else, aren't doing their job. Like how did Piccolo's, "Vegeta isn't one to misread his opponent' fly by anyone?

[HeroR]

Complaining about the design of Moro is a bit odd considering that Dragon Ball as a whole hasn't really had a good original character design since Beerus and Whis except for maybe Hit.

That is subjective since I like the designs for Cali, Super Saiyan 2 Kale, Kelfa, Toppo (both normal and God of Destruction), Dypso, Zamasu, true form Frost, new Broly and his dad, and a lot more.

[Xeno Goku Black]

That is subjective since I like the designs for Cali, Super Saiyan 2 Kale, Kelfa, Toppo (both normal and God of Destruction), Dypso, Zamasu, true form Frost, new Broly and his dad, and a lot more.

But only one of all those is an original design. Caulifla, Kale and Kefla are just Saiyans, Dyspo is a floppy eared Beerus, Zamasu is another Kai, Frost is another Frieza and Broly and Paragus are just reworked.

Actually no I forgot Magetta, that was a good original design too. However Botamo was weak, Ribrianne was weak, most of the Gods of Destruction were very disappointing, almost all of them poor, all the angels share the same visual aesthetic, Moro is just another animal as an enemy but now it's a goat, Seven-Three is just Hit and none of the other goons stood out.

[The Undying]

Complaining about the design of Moro is a bit odd considering that Dragon Ball as a whole hasn't really had a good original character design since Beerus and Whis except for maybe Hit.

My (subjective) complaints are less along the lines of "Moro's new design is bad" and more along the lines of "Moro's new design isn't as good as his old one".

There's just a lot less originality with this new form when you compare it to DB's other antagonists. It looks like a weird mix of Perfect Cell and Toyotaro's Sealas design from Heroes, but with horns.

Maybe it'll grow on me, but it's not my cup of tea right now. Can't fuck with it.

[batistabus]

This was the first chapter of the DBS manga since the U6 tournament where I didn't see a single leak or spoiler online before reading. I need to do that more often. Staying off of the forum and social media since the last chapter released helped with that. Might do it again....

I really like the way Vegeta's new ability was shown visually and explained. Vegeta came off really cool in this chapter. Being able to manipulate ki like that fits with Vegeta's statements early in the arc, and makes sense now that he has a mastery of the concept of Spirit Control. Jumping ahead, Vegeta should be able to undo Moro's Seven-three merger, so we'll see what happens there. If Vegeta isn't successful, will something happen after 30 minutes when Seven-three's limitation kicks in?

It was cool to see old Moro again. I'm not totally sold on Moro73's design, but it's an odd fusion, and I like the concept of using Seven-three as a save state. I did not expect something like this at all, which I like.

Don't get how the Namekians were preserved by the Dragon Balls. I'd prefer if the Namekians were able to retain their bodies due to their unique biology, like a dried out snail that rehydrates.

For some reason, Vegeta thinking he's a villain who belongs in hell is controversial. He went to hell last time he died. He has done some good things in recent history, but just because he was revived at the end of the Boo arc for not containing an evil heart, that doesn't mean his past of evil deeds is erased. In this arc, we see him actively trying to atone. He may be prepared for hell, but I've thought since Chapter 47 that if Vegeta died this arc, he would go to heaven. Based on the dialogue this chapter, I'm thinking that possibility is even greater.

The chapter ends with a "shit, what now?" moment. Hoping to see Beerus & co. next chapter.

[Kinokima]

Complaining about the design of Moro is a bit odd considering that Dragon Ball as a whole hasn't really had a good original character design since Beerus and Whis except for maybe Hit.

My (subjective) complaints are less along the lines of "Moro's new design is bad" and more along the lines of "Moro's new design isn't as good as his old one".

There's just a lot less originality with this new form when you compare it to DB's other antagonists. It looks like a weird mix of Perfect Cell and Toyotaro's Sealas design from Heroes, but with horns.

Maybe it'll grow on me, but it's not my cup of tea right now. Can't fuck with it.

I personally only really liked Moro’s original design. So it’s gotten worse and worse to me

He just looked way more intimidating as the old man goat

Now he just looks way to generic

[DiscountDabi]

This feels like a Super Perfect Cell, Infinite Zamasu Kinda deal where this won’t last more than two chapters.