"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Not gonna lie, I felt bad when Moro killed Shimorreka. I just felt bad. He didn't even betray Moro or anything, Moro just decided to kill him for the heck of it. I know he's evil, but I still felt bad seeing 7-3 legit looked shocked when he saw him get blasted.

[Mad Swami]

I also get a sense of finality because at the EoZ Vegeta was left as Earth's protector, I think this arc will be him assuming that role. I think he needs the victory.

[TKA]

Would like to clear up something I've seen on twitter before it gets here (or it might've gotten here already; I've not read every post). Vegeta has only ever misjudged one character's strength.

1. He was stronger than everyone during the Saiyan arc. It was sneak attacks and combinations he could've never seen coming that made him lose.

2. On Namek, he judged correctly that he could and would beat Zarbon. He lost because he had no idea transformations existed, and that allowed Zarbon to stomp him.

3. He fully knew they were outclassed by Frieza, and told Frieza to transform because it was better they knew what they were up against. His only mistake was not realizing how many transformations Frieza had, or the degree to which each transformation made his power grow.

4. Based on his encounters with 19 and 20, he reasoned he could beat 17 and 18. He had a slight advantage over 18 in the early part of their fight until it came to light that 16, 17 and 18 have infinite energy and would never tire. She outlasted him. Again, he lost because of something he could've never predicted.

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

6. He rightfully understood he couldn't beat Buu and sacrificed himself. His attack completely obliterated Buu. The only reason Buu didn't die was because he had insane regeneration that put Cell's to shame.

So while it might seem to be an incredibly dumb thing for Piccolo to say, if you analyze it he's pretty much correct. Still, it's a weird thing to throw out there when it isn't that obvious and would require a reader to go back and analyze stuff.

[The Undying]

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

I was actually going to bring this example up in response to a poster who made the case that Vegeta doesn't really miscalculate the strength of his foes, but decided not to because... well, it's actually the only example I could think of.

You're absolutely correct. Piccolo's assessment isn't an inaccurate one for the most part - Vegeta doesn't tend to underestimate his opponents unless there are extenuating factors that would prevent him from gauging their strength in the first place.

[Kagari]

I also get a sense of finality because at the EoZ Vegeta was left as Earth's protector, I think this arc will be him assuming that role. I think he needs the victory.

You must be thinking of something else because that didn't happen.

[Mad Swami]

I also get a sense of finality because at the EoZ Vegeta was left as Earth's protector, I think this arc will be him assuming that role. I think he needs the victory.

You must be thinking of something else because that didn't happen.

Yeah at the End of Z, Goku leaves and trains Uub. Vegeta then says something about how Goku entrusts him with Earth's protection. Been a while but something along those lines I'm pretty sure. EDIT Just re-watched and reread the scene, he is saying Uub will uphold the peace. I was wrong. EDIT 2 I knew he mentioned that I just always thought he said something along the lines of "I'll look after them" or something showing his growth. Maybe an orignal dubbing mistake idk

[Matches Malone]

I also get a sense of finality because at the EoZ Vegeta was left as Earth's protector, I think this arc will be him assuming that role. I think he needs the victory.

You must be thinking of something else because that didn't happen.

Yeah at the End of Z, Goku leaves and trains Uub. Vegeta then says something about how Goku entrusts him with Earth's protection. Been a while but something along those lines I'm pretty sure. EDIT Just re-watched and reread the scene, he is saying Uub will uphold the peace. I was wrong. EDIT 2 I knew he mentioned that I just always thought he said something along the lines of "I'll look after them" or something showing his growth. Maybe an orignal dubbing mistake idk

You're thinking about GT's ending.

[Mad Swami]

You must be thinking of something else because that didn't happen.

Yeah at the End of Z, Goku leaves and trains Uub. Vegeta then says something about how Goku entrusts him with Earth's protection. Been a while but something along those lines I'm pretty sure. EDIT Just re-watched and reread the scene, he is saying Uub will uphold the peace. I was wrong. EDIT 2 I knew he mentioned that I just always thought he said something along the lines of "I'll look after them" or something showing his growth. Maybe an orignal dubbing mistake idk

You're thinking about GT's ending.

That's what it is. Thank you.

[Michsi]

Don't get how the Namekians were preserved by the Dragon Balls. I'd prefer if the Namekians were able to retain their bodies due to their unique biology, like a dried out snail that rehydrates.

This would've been a better explanation than what happened. It's not hard to justify plot, so just going "I'unno, it is what it is" is both lazy and uncreative as heck. It's just disappointing.

Yeah, I actually chuckled at how bad this explanation was. I mean it's not unusual for DB to pull something like this when it just wants to not deal with a certain plot point, but this was hilarious.

[emperior]

Would like to clear up something I've seen on twitter before it gets here (or it might've gotten here already; I've not read every post). Vegeta has only ever misjudged one character's strength.

1. He was stronger than everyone during the Saiyan arc. It was sneak attacks and combinations he could've never seen coming that made him lose.

2. On Namek, he judged correctly that he could and would beat Zarbon. He lost because he had no idea transformations existed, and that allowed Zarbon to stomp him.

3. He fully knew they were outclassed by Frieza, and told Frieza to transform because it was better they knew what they were up against. His only mistake was not realizing how many transformations Frieza had, or the degree to which each transformation made his power grow.

4. Based on his encounters with 19 and 20, he reasoned he could beat 17 and 18. He had a slight advantage over 18 in the early part of their fight until it came to light that 16, 17 and 18 have infinite energy and would never tire. She outlasted him. Again, he lost because of something he could've never predicted.

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

6. He rightfully understood he couldn't beat Buu and sacrificed himself. His attack completely obliterated Buu. The only reason Buu didn't die was because he had insane regeneration that put Cell's to shame.

So while it might seem to be an incredibly dumb thing for Piccolo to say, if you analyze it he's pretty much correct. Still, it's a weird thing to throw out there when it isn't that obvious and would require a reader to go back and analyze stuff.

You are correct. That “never” though was not clever, as Piccolo stated an absolute which almost always turns out to be wrong. If he said “Vegeta’s not one to misjudge his opponent’s strength” than that would have created no confusion whatsoever.
It was a poor choice of words by Toyotaro, but it’s no big deal as it’s almost entirely correct as you pointed out.

[Mad Swami]

Also I cannot and will not see Vegeta's recent 'development' as anything but forced and not even genuine. Our last interaction with him was him being completely unfazed taking a life and having zero remorse for it. He just got out of a tournament where the only lives he seemed to have a problem with losing was those of the Saiyans of Universe 6. No matter how you try to dismiss it, he was fine letting literally millions die and stay gone so long as he won the tournament and used the Super Dragon Balls to revive Universe 6. That was always his plan. He stated as such. And he was still at the ready to kill Broly and think nothing of it.

Absolutely nobody can convince me that an evil goat spurs such emotion in Vegeta to want to atone for his sins but then be like 'Lol I'm still a villain, B."
The writing for Vegeta has been atrocious pandering trash that isn't believable in the slightest given his recent actions. But you know who it would've been infinitely better to include and would've been more in line with wanting to avenge the then deceased Namekians? Piccolo. If New Namek was going to be regurgitated as a battle location and plot point, it should have been Piccolo helping out. It should have been Piccolo learning this new power that Vegeta has. Piccolo has more reasons to care and be invested in this issue than Vegeta does. But nope... Let's just have Vegeta go the same way his battles have always gone. Point at himself, act cocky, and get fucked. Next thing you know it'll be Spirit Fission Ultra Instinct Gogeta vs Super Perfect Moro and that's when I'll have my aneurysm.

/Rant

Absolutely, and it's something I've said for months at this point. It comes off as Toyotarou trying to "fix" something that wasn't ever broken just so he can come out and say "well, Vegeta was always better than Goku this entire time!" despite the original series saying full well that wasn't the case. Between that and his sudden remorse for killing Namekians despite never dwelling on what he did in the 20 years that came before... the way it's been presented feels so far removed from Dragon Ball and more akin to something you'd see in a cape comic.

I really do agree that Vegeta in Super is the most overrated thing ever. However, the idea of him attempting to atone for sins isn't a bad one per se just it isn't executed great. However I wouldn't pin this issue solely on the Moro arc, I think him ready to kill Broly is an issue. Broly is a Saiyan with great power and clearly controlled by a malevolent force. Should have struck a chord with him. He is a different person and feeling guilty of his past is bound to happen. Especially when back then he flaunts his killing of the Namekians. I think him having guilt over this isn't bad personally. Piccolo should also have a stake in it because of it being his people. Hell have a Vegeta and Piccolo team up due to them both wishing to help and honor the Namekain people. I just think certain elements should have built to this better, however. In the T.O.P maybe have him start with U7 then U6 but over the course of the arc maybe he has interactions with people and decides that he should save them all. T.O.P could have been a really smooth transition to the more heroic Vegeta. However, as it is it's an underdeveloped good idea.

[Michsi]

Would like to clear up something I've seen on twitter before it gets here (or it might've gotten here already; I've not read every post). Vegeta has only ever misjudged one character's strength.

1. He was stronger than everyone during the Saiyan arc. It was sneak attacks and combinations he could've never seen coming that made him lose.

2. On Namek, he judged correctly that he could and would beat Zarbon. He lost because he had no idea transformations existed, and that allowed Zarbon to stomp him.

3. He fully knew they were outclassed by Frieza, and told Frieza to transform because it was better they knew what they were up against. His only mistake was not realizing how many transformations Frieza had, or the degree to which each transformation made his power grow.

4. Based on his encounters with 19 and 20, he reasoned he could beat 17 and 18. He had a slight advantage over 18 in the early part of their fight until it came to light that 16, 17 and 18 have infinite energy and would never tire. She outlasted him. Again, he lost because of something he could've never predicted.

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

6. He rightfully understood he couldn't beat Buu and sacrificed himself. His attack completely obliterated Buu. The only reason Buu didn't die was because he had insane regeneration that put Cell's to shame.

So while it might seem to be an incredibly dumb thing for Piccolo to say, if you analyze it he's pretty much correct. Still, it's a weird thing to throw out there when it isn't that obvious and would require a reader to go back and analyze stuff.

You are correct. That “never” though was not clever, as Piccolo stated an absolute which almost always turns out to be wrong. If he said “Vegeta’s not one to misjudge his opponent’s strength” than that would have created no confusion whatsoever.
It was a poor choice of words by Toyotaro, but it’s no big deal as it’s almost entirely correct as you pointed out.

Best solution : "Vegeta is no longer someone that misjudges his opponents. " This could've also tied in with this character growth they're trying to go for here.

It's frustrating how just a simple change in wording could've avoided so much bamboozlement.

[theherodjl]

Ok...so Moro can just fucking wolf 7-3 down his gullet and then power up to his greatest level of strength yet along with having an entirely new face that highly resembles Cell's?
It seems to me that even Toriyama & Toyotaro are getting sick of this arc and are blatantly re-using old ideas because they just don't give a fuck about making Moro a well-written or remotely-interesting villain anymore. If this is what DB has come to now, I don't even care to see an anime version of this arc unless Toei reworks it to not be such an uninspired & unoriginal pile of shit.

[Berserker1921]

Ok...so Moro can just fucking wolf 7-3 down his gullet and then power up to his greatest level of strength yet along with having an entirely new face that highly resembles Cell's?
It seems to me that even Toriyama & Toyotaro are getting sick of this arc and are blatantly re-using old ideas because they just don't give a fuck about making Moro a well-written or remotely-interesting villain anymore. If this is what DB has come to now, I don't even care to see an anime version of this arc unless Toei reworks it to not be such an uninspired & unoriginal pile of shit.

I think your being a little harsh. While it’s a rehash or several db storylines. I am enjoying it. We don’t know how it will end. Nor, do we know anything about Moro’s origins. Hopefully, these questions will be answered in the remaining chapters of this arc. And honesty, your asking too much from Dragon Ball! This isn’t Berserk or any other well developed or planned manga. This is meant to be fun. And nothing more. If I wanted to read or watch something deep, I’d look for something that wasn’t a shonen property.

This series has and always will be meant for children. Don’t get so worked up about it. Enjoy it for what it is.

[DiscountDabi]

Ok...so Moro can just fucking wolf 7-3 down his gullet and then power up to his greatest level of strength yet along with having an entirely new face that highly resembles Cell's?
It seems to me that even Toriyama & Toyotaro are getting sick of this arc and are blatantly re-using old ideas because they just don't give a fuck about making Moro a well-written or remotely-interesting villain anymore. If this is what DB has come to now, I don't even care to see an anime version of this arc unless Toei reworks it to not be such an uninspired & unoriginal pile of shit.

I think your being a little harsh. While it’s a rehash or several db storylines. I am enjoying it. We don’t know how it will end. Nor, do we know anything about Moro’s origins. Hopefully, these questions will be answered in the remaining chapters of this arc. And honesty, your asking too much from Dragon Ball! This isn’t Berserk or any other well developed or planned manga. This is meant to be fun. And nothing more. If I wanted to read or watch something deep, I’d look for something that wasn’t a shonen property.

This series has and always will be meant for children. Don’t get so worked up about it. Enjoy it for what it is.

This is something a large part of the fandom needs to hear. This is Dragon Ball, not Shakespeare. It has never been that complex. Frieza was Charismatic, but that was it. Cell was a Carbon Copy of Frieza in his Perfect Form. Most Versions of Buu were just a raging child, With Buuhan basically being Perfect Cell.

Beerus was a God with a short temper. Hit was a Prideful Assasin. Goku Black and Zamasu being with a God Complex. Jiren was a Brick wall. Broly was a Brick wall who we felt sad to get beat up. Dragon Ball Villians aren’t that complex and expecting Toyotaro to break the chain sounds like you’re dooming him to fail your expectations.

[mute_proxy]

Dragon Ball always felt fresh with ideas, this arc is filled with nothing but old, in a new outfit, complexity and "genre" isn't a factor in this case

[Kataphrut]

Thanks to Twitter for the spoilers. I'd seen Moro's fused form before I even knew what Vegeta's new technique was. So that was nice. Also, nice to see the trend continue of every Moro design being worse than the last.

Is there someone higher up that's making Toyotaro pad this arc out? It's been going for over a year now and it feels like everything time we glimpse an end in sight, it keeps going. Either that or it's the Cell/Buu thing where Toriyama kept contriving ways for the fight to continue until he could come up with a suitably epic climax. I guess that would be a little better- Vegeta simply winning with no effort would have been boring. But, here's a thought...how about instead you have him win with effort. Draw a proper fight scene, give it stakes, give it tension. Don't just turn it into a playground fight of Everything Proof Shields and Infinity Plus One Guns.

Cos that's what this felt like- Vegeta came out with a highly specific counter to Moro's bullshit that lets him win instantly, then Moro goes "Nuh-uh." It'll take a lot of effort to make it seem like Spirit Fission could work as an alternative to Ultra Instinct.

[Berserker1921]

Thanks to Twitter for the spoilers. I'd seen Moro's fused form before I even knew what Vegeta's new technique was. So that was nice. Also, nice to see the trend continue of every Moro design being worse than the last.

Is there someone higher up that's making Toyotaro pad this arc out? It's been going for over a year now and it feels like everything time we glimpse an end in sight, it keeps going. Either that or it's the Cell/Buu thing where Toriyama kept contriving ways for the fight to continue until he could come up with a suitably epic climax. I guess that would be a little better- Vegeta simply winning with no effort would have been boring. But, here's a thought...how about instead you have him win with effort. Draw a proper fight scene, give it stakes, give it tension. Don't just turn it into a playground fight of Everything Proof Shields and Infinity Plus One Guns.

Cos that's what this felt like- Vegeta came out with a highly specific counter to Moro's bullshit that lets him win instantly, then Moro goes "Nuh-uh." It'll take a lot of effort to make it seem like Spirit Fission could work as an alternative to Ultra Instinct.

He has to pad it out. The anime will need inspiration when it eventually comes back. And have you never read or seen dragon ball? This always happens. Hero gets stronger. Almost beats main villain. Main villain as a new transformation or trick up his sleeve. Becomes more powerful than the hero.

For the hero to win, he has to asspull a new power up or ability. Fuse. Or use a spirit bomb. That’s dragon ball. Has been since Z days.

[Berserker1921]

Dragon Ball always felt fresh with ideas, this arc is filled with nothing but old, in a new outfit, complexity and "genre" isn't a factor in this case

Dragon ball was one of the first real shonen stories. The one that basically started it all. Had it not been for db or Dbz. No naruto, one piece, yu yu hakesho, bleach, and etc. They all borrowed and improved on ideas laid out by dragon ball.

Even toriyama can’t or well is too lazy to compete against his famous series. Just enjoy dragon ball for what it is. A fun action/fantasy manga.

[theherodjl]

I think your being a little harsh. While it’s a rehash or several db storylines. I am enjoying it. We don’t know how it will end. Nor, do we know anything about Moro’s origins. Hopefully, these questions will be answered in the remaining chapters of this arc. And honesty, your asking too much from Dragon Ball! This isn’t Berserk or any other well developed or planned manga. This is meant to be fun. And nothing more. If I wanted to read or watch something deep, I’d look for something that wasn’t a shonen property.

This series has and always will be meant for children. Don’t get so worked up about it. Enjoy it for what it is.

I'm not being harsh, just very blunt. This turn of events is a rehash of Cell's comeback(with Moro even resembling Cell slightly) combined with Boo's secondary method of absorbing someone via physically eating them. Moro's ability of becoming so powerful was thoroughly beaten and reversed...but by literally swallowing an artificial being that was introduced only some chapters ago, Moro gets an absurd power-boost that puts him right back in the game better than ever. Its an asspull for the sake of drawing out the story longer and it seems much more like something from SDBH or a bad fanfic rather than Akira Toriyama or Toyotaro.
There's "fun" and then there's "awful". Its hard to enjoy something when it seems like the writers have simply run out of ideas and go for a twist-ending to make up for it.