DB could work as Cartoon Series?

[ABED]

The death of his parents is all there is to it. You don't need more than that to understand it. Knowing Goku is an alien tells us nothing. And while we're at it, people also know the origins of Superman - baby from Krypton sent by his parents to Kansas to protect him where he's raised by the Kents. Everyone knows that and that's enough. The point being made is people know the characters, so all you need to know is when the show is on. The idea that the average DCAU viewer knew next to nothing is ridiculous. Everyone knew Batman and Superman's origin stories, their supporting cast, and a few of their most popular villains. We weren't going in tabula rasa.

DB doesn't have that sort of cultural currency at least not in America.

[MyVisionity]

Batman was never one singular story with a beginning, middle, and end. It's always been a story with a bunch of different interpretations.

It seems like you're taking every piece of Batman media and throwing it all together as one great big story. Instead of separating the comics from the shows from the films and so forth. Are you saying that Dragon Ball, as a singular story and vision, cannot have different interpretations?

And I think you're overstating the notion that the Batman comic books is a story with multiple interpretations and understating its singularity. Different writer/artists doesn't necessarily mean that the story diverges or the character significantly transforms.

That's a bare bones understanding of the Batman mythos. The circumstances of his parents' death, the names and occupations of a handful of characters. Bits and pieces.

That's all that is necessary. They get the important part about what defines him. Everything else is window dressing.

I say that the above is the window dressing. What defines him is his unwavering commitment to justice.

What is the point of this useless and uneccessary hypothetical adaptation of DB?

Same as any other adaptation. Take something old and turn it into something new. It happens all the time.

The death of his parents is all there is to it. You don't need more than that to understand it. Knowing Goku is an alien tells us nothing. And while we're at it, people also know the origins of Superman - baby from Krypton sent by his parents to Kansas to protect him where he's raised by the Kents. Everyone knows that and that's enough. The point being made is people know the characters, so all you need to know is when the show is on. The idea that the average DCAU viewer knew next to nothing is ridiculous. Everyone knew Batman and Superman's origin stories, their supporting cast, and a few of their most popular villains. We weren't going in tabula rasa.

DB doesn't have that sort of cultural currency at least not in America.

The death of his parents is the smallest piece of the puzzle. It's what happens after his parents death that tells you what you need to know. Same with Superman. Viewers couldn't possibly begin to know those characters by knowing only fragments of their origin stories. It was this clean slate that allowed for the DCAU to be as successful as it was.

Which means that Dragon Ball is in an even greater position to become successful with a new adaptation. The lack of knowledge means that the writers would have an opportunity to present to the audience something they have never seen before while injecting their own ideas to create something new.

[ABED]

It seems like you're taking every piece of Batman media and throwing it all together as one great big story. Instead of separating the comics from the shows from the films and so forth. Are you saying that Dragon Ball, as a singular story and vision, cannot have different interpretations?

And I think you're overstating the notion that the Batman comic books is a story with multiple interpretations and understating its singularity. Different writer/artists doesn't necessarily mean that the story diverges or the character significantly transforms.

Every single bit of this is incorrect. Batman doesn't have a singular story at all. There are common elements but that's it. It's not one big story. I don't know where you got the impression I'm lumping all in together.

What defines him is his unwavering commitment to justice.

As opposed to the thousands of other superheroes.

This idea of turning DB into an American show is on its face so stupid. DB is inherently an Asian story. Change that, it's no longer DB. Instead of doing something "new with DB", why not just do something brand new? The only possible answer is name recognition.

The death of his parents is the smallest piece of the puzzle. It's what happens after his parents death that tells you what you need to know. Same with Superman. Viewers couldn't possibly begin to know those characters by knowing only fragments of their origin stories. It was this clean slate that allowed for the DCAU to be as successful as it was.

This is so ignorant. Not only did the audience for said shows already know the origin stories, Timm explicitly told his writers to NOT start with the origin story because every kid already knew it. They only did Superman's again because he thought that was one of his favorites. And people know more than the origin story.

[WittyUsername]

Not all stories made in the West follow a “Western” structure. Avatar: The Last Airbender is an American show, but it clearly has some major Eastern influences.

[MyVisionity]

Batman doesn't have a singular story at all. There are common elements but that's it. It's not one big story.

It's a story without an end but it's still got a beginning and middle. It begins as a singular story that evolves over time and switches writers periodically. One might say there are multiple visions for the same one story and a character that is re-interpreted as the story moves forward.

What defines him is his unwavering commitment to justice.

As opposed to the thousands of other superheroes.

Yes. His commitment to justice sets him apart from other superheroes. It's central to the character. The others either don't care much about justice, or they do but it's not a defining characteristic.

This idea of turning DB into an American show is on its face so stupid. DB is inherently an Asian story. Change that, it's no longer DB. Instead of doing something "new with DB", why not just do something brand new? The only possible answer is name recognition.

Some people are interested in doing "semi-new" instead of "brand new". They want to have it both ways. That way they reap the benefits of both directions.

The death of his parents is the smallest piece of the puzzle. It's what happens after his parents death that tells you what you need to know. Same with Superman. Viewers couldn't possibly begin to know those characters by knowing only fragments of their origin stories. It was this clean slate that allowed for the DCAU to be as successful as it was.

This is so ignorant. Not only did the audience for said shows already know the origin stories, Timm explicitly told his writers to NOT start with the origin story because every kid already knew it. They only did Superman's again because he thought that was one of his favorites. And people know more than the origin story.

Timm probably just wanted to hit the ground running and not have to deal with the character's origins. Like I said, the origin story is only a small piece of the pie. By moving past it the writers could then take advantage of the meat of the mythos and find greater success. Also, I think Timm may have been overestimating his audience a bit. I doubt the average viewer knew Batman's origin story outside of the Burton film, and that one told very little.

[ABED]

It's not a single story because the worlds are radically different over the years with numerous interpretations and continuities. It's not a single story since Bruce isn't continually informed by previous experiences. Continuity is chucked out the window on a fairly consistent basis.

Every superhero is committed to justice. That's what makes them superHEROES.

Timm probably just wanted to hit the ground running and not have to deal with the character's origins. Like I said, the origin story is only a small piece of the pie. By moving past it the writers could then take advantage of the meat of the mythos and find greater success. Also, I think Timm may have been overestimating his audience a bit. I doubt the average viewer knew Batman's origin story outside of the Burton film, and that one told very little.

And you'd be wrong on all of this. His letter to his writers was made public. His reasons are known. Everyone knew it, so you'd be wrong on that count. Audience's knew the origin story, which surprises me why they told Superman's. To keep this about DB, DB isn't nearly as ubiquitous to Western audiences as Batman and Superman but that doesn't matter. DB was a single story with characters who had clearly defined personalities. Goku is the manchild who loves a fight. Vegeta is the proud prince who goes from psychopath to family man. Gohan is the crybaby, sheltered child to polite capable fighter who ultimately doesn't like fighting, but will do so to defend the people he loves.

Some interpretations of Batman having him using a gun, some have him never using them, some have him dark crusader of the night, some have him a deputy of the law, some are upbeat and fun, others are brutal and cynical. Some versions of Krytpon are colder and more sterile than others, not just in terms of physical planet but its people.

There are also other factors besides writing to think about such as casting, the director, the network execs. The planets have to align for something to become special and even then it only lasts for so long. Go on long enough and every story jumps the shark.

[MyVisionity]

It's not a single story because the worlds are radically different over the years with numerous interpretations and continuities. It's not a single story since Bruce isn't continually informed by previous experiences. Continuity is chucked out the window on a fairly consistent basis.

You could argue it was a single story pre-Crisis. And for a while post-Crisis even. Continuity being chucked has only really been a thing in the past twenty years or so.

Every superhero is committed to justice. That's what makes them superHEROES.

No. The Marvel characters tend not to care about justice or large ideals. And in DC they care about other things more. Superman, for example, cares more about saving humanity, protecting the Earth, and peace more than he does justice.

To keep this about DB, DB isn't nearly as ubiquitous to Western audiences as Batman and Superman but that doesn't matter. DB was a single story with characters who had clearly defined personalities. Goku is the manchild who loves a fight. Vegeta is the proud prince who goes from psychopath to family man. Gohan is the crybaby, sheltered child to polite capable fighter who ultimately doesn't like fighting, but will do so to defend the people he loves.

Clearly defined personalities can be re-interpreted and expanded upon. In fact, in some ways they're almost begging for some writer to come along and "color outside the lines" to give audiences something new, building on what came before.

Some interpretations of Batman having him using a gun, some have him never using them, some have him dark crusader of the night, some have him a deputy of the law, some are upbeat and fun, others are brutal and cynical. Some versions of Krytpon are colder and more sterile than others, not just in terms of physical planet but its people.

And yet it's all one story. Characters and their worlds can change or be reinterpreted and still follow along a singular path.

There are also other factors besides writing to think about such as casting, the director, the network execs. The planets have to align for something to become special and even then it only lasts for so long. Go on long enough and every story jumps the shark.

Yes but you can't just sit around and wait for the planets to align. You have to take action and hope that lightning does indeed strike. If someone out there thinks they have a shot at a new Dragon Ball, they should take it.

[ABED]

No. The Marvel characters tend not to care about justice or large ideals. And in DC they care about other things more. Superman, for example, cares more about saving humanity, protecting the Earth, and peace more than he does justice.

That's a distinction without a difference. Justice in the simplest terms means "People getting what they deserve". And the fact that the big superhero team in the DC Universe is the JUSTICE League should be a tip off that they all care about justice and ideals. Spidey's driven by a sense of justice after shirking his responsibility. The X-Men fight for mutant rights and to protect humans who persecute them because they have a strong sense of justice. Tony Stark becomes Iron Man because he has a moral reevaluation after seeing who was using them. One of the catchphrases most associate with Superman is "Truth, JUSTICE, and the American way."

And yet it's all one story. Characters and their worlds can change or be reinterpreted and still follow along a singular path.

Except it's not one. What the hell do you consider this "singular path"? Path assumes it's leading to somewhere. It's not in this case. There is no end just a bunch of first and second acts. The occasions there are third acts the continuities get rebooted and any of the lessons that were learned are tossed out the window. It all is done with the aim of keeping the IP going.

Clearly defined personalities can be re-interpreted and expanded upon.

The difference between superhero comics and DB is the length of time and expectations. We expect Spidey and Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman to be different over the years while sharing certain commonalities. Goku's personality is well defined after decades so any new version is going to come with a far different set of expectations than if you adapted Green Arrow.

Yes but you can't just sit around and wait for the planets to align. You have to take action and hope that lightning does indeed strike. If someone out there thinks they have a shot at a new Dragon Ball, they should take it.

There isn't. This is such an asinine idea. Why anyone would want this is beyond me. Are you not satisfied with 10 years of the manga and hundreds of movies? Why would you want an American version of something that's Asian to its core? What the hell would this version of "Dragon Ball" (in name only) even consist of? Lightning has already struck. It's time to let DB go. This is chasing the high of nostalgia.

[WittyUsername]

While I wouldn’t care for the idea of a American Dragon Ball cartoon, I can’t say I understand this idea that Western entertainment is incapable of handling Eastern themes. Not every piece of entertainment that gets made in America involves superheroes.

[Adamant]

Superman's origin was originally told in a single page preceeding his first actual story. Batman's origin was told in two pages preceeding that issue's actual story half a year into the comic's run. These were not treated as "stories" in themselves, just quick "ok readers, here's what the deal with our hero is" asides.

[MyVisionity]

No. The Marvel characters tend not to care about justice or large ideals. And in DC they care about other things more. Superman, for example, cares more about saving humanity, protecting the Earth, and peace more than he does justice.

That's a distinction without a difference. Justice in the simplest terms means "People getting what they deserve". And the fact that the big superhero team in the DC Universe is the JUSTICE League should be a tip off that they all care about justice and ideals. Spidey's driven by a sense of justice after shirking his responsibility. The X-Men fight for mutant rights and to protect humans who persecute them because they have a strong sense of justice. Tony Stark becomes Iron Man because he has a moral reevaluation after seeing who was using them. One of the catchphrases most associate with Superman is "Truth, JUSTICE, and the American way."

I still don't think that most of the Marvel characters care about justice. Certainly not Spider-Man. There are certain exceptions, but morality and justice are not the same things. Yes, some DC titles and slogans pay lip service to justice, but that's only because justice as a term is often used very broadly, especially for writers of superhero comics coming out the WWII era.

Batman comics, on the other hand, made justice their central tenet from the jump. The scales of justice image appeared alongside the title pages in its earliest issues, legendary figures such as Robin Hood and Zorro fueled the writing and conception, Batman would even show up in court. It was never about names and slogans in the Bat-office. Part of this is due to the fact that Batman is human and not alien or super-powered. Justice is something that humans deal with and so the others can't get a handle on it. It's also because of his origin and waging war on crime, which places him at the heart of the criminal justice system. So Batman deals with this stuff in ways that his comrades do not.

And yet it's all one story. Characters and their worlds can change or be reinterpreted and still follow along a singular path.

Except it's not one. What the hell do you consider this "singular path"? Path assumes it's leading to somewhere. It's not in this case. There is no end just a bunch of first and second acts. The occasions there are third acts the continuities get rebooted and any of the lessons that were learned are tossed out the window. It all is done with the aim of keeping the IP going.

I mean it's a singular story, on a path with no end. The story is always moving forward, regardless of any new interpretations. The characters grow and evolve and learn continuously. You don't have to throw out any lessons, because they just learn new ones.

Clearly defined personalities can be re-interpreted and expanded upon.

The difference between superhero comics and DB is the length of time and expectations. We expect Spidey and Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman to be different over the years while sharing certain commonalities. Goku's personality is well defined after decades so any new version is going to come with a far different set of expectations than if you adapted Green Arrow.

Defy those expectations. Leave the audience scratching their heads. And because Dragon Ball lacks ubiquity, that's the opportunity for some writer to jump in and take advantage. They can do all new things and be successful while the average viewer has no expectations.

Why anyone would want this is beyond me. Are you not satisfied with 10 years of the manga and hundreds of movies? Why would you want an American version of something that's Asian to its core? What the hell would this version of "Dragon Ball" (in name only) even consist of? Lightning has already struck. It's time to let DB go. This is chasing the high of nostalgia.

There's masses of unsuspecting viewers out there who haven't encountered the manga and anime yet. It's a prime opportunity for anyone interested to hypothetically put out new Dragon Ball.

The sky's the limit for ideas. Off the top of my head, Goku and the team are high-schoolers who fight rival martial arts gangs in the neighborhood. Goku can transform into a giant ape which aids him in these battles. Eventually, these gang wars throughout the city/countryside catch the attention of a twenty-something Bulma, Capsule Corp president and genius who herself is embroiled in a corporate thriller plot involving rival business leaders etc. etc. And that's just off the dome, imagine what invested writers could come up with.

[Aim]

That's all that is necessary. They get the important part about what defines him. Everything else is window dressing.

Saying a few names and a bare bones origin story is all that's necessary to know Batman is like saying knowing Goku and his friends are aliens who punch each other really hard is all that's necessary to know what DB is.

Turning it into a "Western Cartoon" where the animators and companies do not put in the amount of effort that companies in Japan doesn't sound very appealing.

We're not talking about what the average person and company would do, but rather the rare exception of someone who not only understand and respects DB, but has a vision that will bring something new to it, supported by a company that believes in said vision and is willing to give it the proper budget to be realized.

Look at Batman the Animated Series, under normal circumstances, it would've just been another forgettable toy commercial in a long line of of similar cartoons, but because of the conditions mentioned above, it became so much more than that.

I don't understand why it would even be necessary, why change Toriyama's iconic style? Not to mention the dubbing, if anything like this was ever going to happen it would have to accurate, not another repeat of Super.

There's masses of unsuspecting viewers out there who haven't encountered the manga and anime yet. It's a prime opportunity for anyone interested to hypothetically put out new Dragon Ball.

The sky's the limit for ideas. Off the top of my head, Goku and the team are high-schoolers who fight rival martial arts gangs in the neighborhood. Goku can transform into a giant ape which aids him in these battles. Eventually, these gang wars throughout the city/countryside catch the attention of a twenty-something Bulma, Capsule Corp president and genius who herself is embroiled in a corporate thriller plot involving rival business leaders etc. etc. And that's just off the dome, imagine what invested writers could come up with.

Create more misconception than there already is? The best way to introduce someone to the series is by introducing them to Dragon Ball, whether that be the manga or anime or both, the last thing we need is another repeat of "Kakarotto" syndrome where people start asking whether Goku ever achieved Super Saiyan as a kid.

Something that makes a franchise easier to get into, is story line consistency, which the West has very little of already.

[Matches Malone]

I don't understand why it would even be necessary, why change Toriyama's iconic style?

It's not necessary, I just think it's possible to make it work as such, despite the possibility not being very high.

[ABED]

There are certain exceptions, but morality and justice are not the same things.

Explain the difference, don't just assert that there is.

The sky's the limit for ideas. Off the top of my head, Goku and the team are high-schoolers who fight rival martial arts gangs in the neighborhood. Goku can transform into a giant ape which aids him in these battles. Eventually, these gang wars throughout the city/countryside catch the attention of a twenty-something Bulma, Capsule Corp president and genius who herself is embroiled in a corporate thriller plot involving rival business leaders etc. etc. And that's just off the dome, imagine what invested writers could come up with.

If you want to do something so radically different with DB as to turn it into a teen show, then it's no longer DB. Why not create something new. Imagine what writers could do with such an idea if it weren't tied to Dragon Ball. The sky isn't the limit in this case. It needs to keep enough key elements to make it Dragon Ball.

Answer this, since your idea is SO different from Dragon Ball, why not just do something wholely original? Why tie it to Dragon Ball?

[MyVisionity]

There are certain exceptions, but morality and justice are not the same things.

Explain the difference, don't just assert that there is.

Morality is about right and wrong, good and evil. Justice is concerned with correcting what's wrong and how to go about it for the sake of order and balance. Justice is an extension of morality. Batman is primarily focused on criminal justice. The other DC superheroes can't understand this because they are too busy saving lives or protecting the Earth. Spider-Man may fight crime, but only because he thinks it's wrong and it's up to him to stop it. He isn't concerned whether or not the parties involved are getting what they deserve. He wasn't driven by the injustice of his Uncle's death or crime itself, he was driven by his sense of responsibility.

The sky's the limit for ideas. Off the top of my head, Goku and the team are high-schoolers who fight rival martial arts gangs in the neighborhood. Goku can transform into a giant ape which aids him in these battles. Eventually, these gang wars throughout the city/countryside catch the attention of a twenty-something Bulma, Capsule Corp president and genius who herself is embroiled in a corporate thriller plot involving rival business leaders etc. etc. And that's just off the dome, imagine what invested writers could come up with.

If you want to do something so radically different with DB as to turn it into a teen show, then it's no longer DB. Why not create something new. Imagine what writers could do with such an idea if it weren't tied to Dragon Ball. The sky isn't the limit in this case. It needs to keep enough key elements to make it Dragon Ball.

Take away Dragon Ball and a writer may be cutting off a valuable resource. In this case "semi-new" might prove better than "brand new".

Strange ape-kid, martial arts, technology, etc. These aren't key elements of Dragon Ball?

Answer this, since your idea is SO different from Dragon Ball, why not just do something wholely original? Why tie it to Dragon Ball?

Maybe the idea doesn't work without Dragon Ball. Maybe a writer would believe that the story isn't worth telling without the DB connections.

[Adamant]

Strange ape-kid, martial arts, technology, etc. These aren't key elements of Dragon Ball?

"Journey to the West, but set in the modern day" is not some sort of crazy unique idea Toriyama has exclusive claim to, no. Your "delinquent martial artist gang based on the Journey to the West trio catches the interest of some young tech wiz businesswoman involved in a corporate thriller drama" idea sounds like something that could easily be pitched as a new battle shonen manga in Japan without anyone screaming "Dragonball ripoff" at it.

[ABED]

Morality is about right and wrong, good and evil. Justice is concerned with correcting what's wrong and how to go about it for the sake of order and balance. Justice is an extension of morality. Batman is primarily focused on criminal justice. The other DC superheroes can't understand this because they are too busy saving lives or protecting the Earth. Spider-Man may fight crime, but only because he thinks it's wrong and it's up to him to stop it. He isn't concerned whether or not the parties involved are getting what they deserve. He wasn't driven by the injustice of his Uncle's death or crime itself, he was driven by his sense of responsibility.

Peter is driven by a sense of responsibility to make sure the innocent don't pay the way his uncle did for his lack of responsibility - in other words, ensuring people get what they deserve and the innocent are protected and guilty are stopped. The idea that other heroes can't understand something as basic as justice is asinine. Peter IS concerned with whether the parties get what they deserve because innocent people don't deserve to get hurt.

Take away Dragon Ball and a writer may be cutting off a valuable resource.

That resource is branding.

Maybe the idea doesn't work without Dragon Ball. Maybe a writer would believe that the story isn't worth telling without the DB connections.

Then they're hacks, maybe competent hacks but still hacks.

"Journey to the West, but set in the modern day" is not some sort of crazy unique idea Toriyama has exclusive claim to, no. Your "delinquent martial artist gang based on the Journey to the West trio catches the interest of some young tech wiz businesswoman involved in a corporate thriller drama" idea sounds like something that could easily be pitched as a new battle shonen manga in Japan without anyone screaming "Dragonball ripoff" at it.

That's a bingo!

[MyVisionity]

Peter is driven by a sense of responsibility to make sure the innocent don't pay the way his uncle did for his lack of responsibility - in other words, ensuring people get what they deserve and the innocent are protected and guilty are stopped. The idea that other heroes can't understand something as basic as justice is asinine. Peter IS concerned with whether the parties get what they deserve because innocent people don't deserve to get hurt.

I think you're reading into it too much. The only thing Parker is driven to do is fight crime, due to his sense of responsibility. That's it. Spider-Man isn't the type to get caught up in ideals like justice. Sure, there may be some unconscious concern for justice by way of his crimefighting, but nothing more.

The point is that justice was intentionally written as being a central thematic element to Batman's character and stories. It's one of the things that sets him apart from most of the others. Not his origin, or supporting cast, or rogues gallery. It's the heart of the stories. The DCAU viewers couldn't have truly known Batman unless they understood this.

"Journey to the West, but set in the modern day" is not some sort of crazy unique idea Toriyama has exclusive claim to, no. Your "delinquent martial artist gang based on the Journey to the West trio catches the interest of some young tech wiz businesswoman involved in a corporate thriller drama" idea sounds like something that could easily be pitched as a new battle shonen manga in Japan without anyone screaming "Dragonball ripoff" at it.

That's a bingo!

Yes, but that's in Japan. American audiences won't get the JttW connections. This means a writer can potentially play up the Dragon Ball elements and the viewers will eat it up! And without the ubiquity of DB, then the writers wouldn't have to worry about deviating too far from the source material.

Toriyama's unique style is difficult to replicate. I can't imagine any writers being able to faithfully recreate a story like that.

[ABED]

Yes there's a difference between the two concepts, but justice is just morals in a social context. You're drawing an artificial distinction. I get you're point and don't agree AT ALL. It doesn't set him apart from other superheroes. The point of Superheroes is their dedication to justice. Hell, The Punisher is driven by a sense of justice. He thinks the justice system is screwed up so he punishes criminals because otherwise they would hurt innocent people and that is unjust. It is not unique to Batman.

Yes, but that's in Japan. American audiences won't get the JttW connections. This means a writer can potentially play up the Dragon Ball elements and the viewers will eat it up! And without the ubiquity of DB, then the writers wouldn't have to worry about deviating too far from the source material.

Toriyama's unique style is difficult to replicate. I can't imagine any writers being able to faithfully recreate a story like that.

All the more reason to not try to replicate DB and create something new.

Even if audiences know of the connection between Star Wars and Flash Gordon, how many do you think are that familiar with Flash Gordon?

[Adamant]

Yes, but that's in Japan. American audiences won't get the JttW connections. This means a writer can potentially play up the Dragon Ball elements and the viewers will eat it up! And without the ubiquity of DB, then the writers wouldn't have to worry about deviating too far from the source material.

Writing something unrelated to Dragonball and then calling one of the characters Bulma is not "doing something new and different With Dragonball. Australia made a JttW TV series in 2018 named The New Legends of Monkey, do you think they should've done a search-and-replace on "Tripitaka" to "Bulma" in their scripts and cashed in on how this was a new and exciting take on Dragonball for dumb audience members who didn't know the difference?