"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[LoganForkHands73]

In one scene Broly is telling us how he hates fighting, the very next he attacks Goku and Vegeta without question. That's as inconsistent as it can get.

It was according to the marketing, "3 destinies come together, Goku, Vegeta, Broly". Apart from that, Goku and Vegeta are the 2 faces of the movie and the overall franchise, so I expect even a little development. I don't see how that would take anything away from Broly's, they can do both.

They establish pretty clearly that Broly only fights out of obligation and pressure from his father. And anger issues. Lots of anger issues. The "inconsistency" isn't a bad thing here, it actually shows internal conflict in his character.

I will agree that Goku and Vegeta do fade into the background somewhat, even if it's not really their movie this time. I think there must've been a subplot in Toriyama's script about Goku coming to terms with his Saiyan heritage that was left on the cutting room floor and the only remnant of it being the "Just call me Kakarot" bit at the end. This film's otherwise quite continuity light, but if you (somehow) don't know who Goku or Vegeta are, or just want to see more of them in the plot, you're kinda screwed.

Addressing the main arguments of the thread, I wanna say that the franchise needs new blood but almost every time Dragon Ball has tried to move on without Toriyama, it's never quite landed. Toriyama just gets Dragon Ball and while he's not loath to admit it, he's actually a good writer when he puts his mind to it.

[Matches Malone]

Toriyama just gets Dragon Ball and while he's not loath to admit it, he's actually a good writer when he puts his mind to it.

He's a great writer, the problem is that he's not putting his mind to it, but rather working as a guide to others.

[Miracles]

I can't believe people really think DB would be better off without Toriyama. Or that he is the reason holding DB back.
When we got garbage like GT, DB heroes, Potafeur arc floating around without him.

[Grimlock]

Conversely, we got garbage like Movie 15, Dragon Ball Minus, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Super Broly (to some extent) floating around with Toriyama. And it goes without saying we keep getting stories before the end of the series because of him. Yeah, he certainly is one to blame.

[Matches Malone]

I can't believe people really think DB would be better off without Toriyama. Or that he is the reason holding DB back.

I think most fans can agree that DB would be better off without Resurrection F and Minus, with a good amount adding Super to that. Do you honestly believe that DB is currently being utilized to its full potential by Toriyama ?

[Miracles]

Conversely, we got garbage like Movie 15, Dragon Ball Minus, Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Super Broly (to some extent) floating around with Toriyama. And it goes without saying we keep getting stories before the end of the series because of him. Yeah, he certainly is one to blame.

I can't believe people really think DB would be better off without Toriyama. Or that he is the reason holding DB back.

I think most fans can agree that DB would be better off without Resurrection F and Minus, with a good amount adding Super to that. Do you honestly believe that DB is currently being utilized to its full potential by Toriyama ?

Resurrection F movie was fine. It was the retelling that was bad [TOEI].
Dragonball minus was a simple one time reveal of Goku's backstory. It accomplished what it needed to.
Broly was a good DB movie. To the point and concise. That's good DB by Toriyama and boosts the franchise.
As far as Super goes. TOEI/Toyotaro failed to execute it. Toriyama isn't the one making different variations to god forms or adding techniques to it. Depreciating it's uniqueness with over the top visuals. Toriyama was the one who had to rewrite TOEI's entire BoG script since it wasn't Dragonball. My God, we would of had Lizard Beerus in TOEI's hands.

[Matches Malone]

Resurrection F movie was fine.

Dragonball minus accomplished what it needed to.

As far as Super goes. TOEI/Toyotaro failed to execute it.

Toriyama had to rewrite TOEI's entire BoG script since it wasn't Dragonball.

It was fine as an older side story type DBZ movie, not a follow up to something as unique as BOG. It doesn't help that Freeza was completely mishandled in it as well.

If you mean destroy a classic TV special and everything that made Goku special, then mission accomplished.

It would've helped if Toriyama gave them something more than a gum wrap size of a story to work with.

I think BOG was a masterpiece on the level of the original manga, so I'll always give him credit for that.

[TKA]

Resurrection F is what I prefer Super to be, actually.

Only Toriyama would make a dragonball story where the main bad guy is treated as a complete joke by EVERY character involved because they know Goku and Vegeta are leagues beyond him. Then there's the fact that Beerus and Whis are there too and could stop this at any point. A common argument I see is "it didn't have any tensions or stakes," and to that I say "yeah, that's the point."

Even the Toyotaro companion comic had Vegeta saying "Why's everyone getting bent out of shape? It's just Frieza." I enjoyed it as just a dumb adventure where you got to see everyone again (and mind you, this came out before we knew Dragonball Super was going to be a thing).

[Matches Malone]

Resurrection F is what I prefer Super to be, actually.

Only Toriyama would make a dragonball story where the main bad guy is treated as a complete joke by EVERY character involved because they know Goku and Vegeta are leagues beyond him. Then there's the fact that Beerus and Whis are there too and could stop this at any point. A common argument I see is "it didn't have any tensions or stakes," and to that I say "yeah, that's the point."

Even the Toyotaro companion comic had Vegeta saying "Why's everyone getting bent out of shape? It's just Frieza." I enjoyed it as just a dumb adventure where you got to see everyone again (and mind you, this came out before we knew Dragonball Super was going to be a thing).

This would be OK if it wasn't Freeza, one of the franchise's greatest villains. If you want a story where the villain isn't that big of a threat, then introduce someone new who fits that idea, not Freeza. The other issue is that it was following BOG. If you're going to follow up such a great movie, then you better bring your A game to the table, something RF wasn't.

[Kanassa]

If you mean destroy a classic TV special and everything that made Goku special, then mission accomplished.

What, because Bardock is portrayed as slightly less shitty than the original TV special?

[The Undying]

I think most fans can agree that DB would be better off without Resurrection F and Minus

I don't. I appreciate what Resurrection 'F' brought to the table and thoroughly enjoyed what Minus/Broly did with Bardock's character (I'd argue it was actually the original TV special that made Bardock - and by extension, his son - "special", even though that completely goes against Toriyama's vision for the Saiyan arc's themes).

I also don't think there's anywhere near a consensus on these two as certain vocal fans would like the community to believe. Even if that were the case, why would anyone ever appeal to popularity?

[miguelnuva1]

When RF first came out Toriyama said he wanted it to be the final arc after the Buu saga and was reduing it now so a lot of that stroy was likely formed in his head before BoG.

[Matches Malone]

When RF first came out Toriyama said he wanted it to be the final arc after the Buu saga...

a lot of that stroy was likely formed in his head before BoG.

When and where did he say that ? I'm not one to ask for sources, but this is a rare time I'd love to see one for such a statement.

This doesn't make sense, as BOG was presented to him out of nowhere, he was never planning on coming back to the franchise.

[Miracles]

Resurrection F movie was fine.

Dragonball minus accomplished what it needed to.

As far as Super goes. TOEI/Toyotaro failed to execute it.

Toriyama had to rewrite TOEI's entire BoG script since it wasn't Dragonball.

It was fine as an older side story type DBZ movie, not a follow up to something as unique as BOG. It doesn't help that Freeza was completely mishandled in it as well.

If you mean destroy a classic TV special and everything that made Goku special, then mission accomplished.

It would've helped if Toriyama gave them something more than a gum wrap size of a story to work with.

I think BOG was a masterpiece on the level of the original manga, so I'll always give him credit for that.

Yeah, BoG was a masterpiece cause Toriyama practically threw away TOEI's version of it. All TOEI/Toyotaro had to do was fill in between plot points for the Super series. Besides, why would you want Toriyama to give TOEI/Toyotaro more since he is the one who is supposedly in the way of the franchise? He gave them a foundation, they couldn't even execute that properly.

The fanservice crews wanted to randomly throw Vegetto in the Future Trunks arc, which made no sense. Toriyama's original was better with the Patora time limit scheme. Bardock TV classic wasn't Dragonball, according to Toriyama. It was too dark, which is true. He didn't destroy it, he simply made the true DB version of it. Freeza wasn't mishandled in RoF either. He always was a freak of nature. The plot of him finally training seriously for a few months to reach god level fits his character and power.

The three movies are the most consistent fiction in the Super universe. Without Toriyama, DB would not have the success it has today.

[miguelnuva1]

When RF first came out Toriyama said he wanted it to be the final arc after the Buu saga...

a lot of that stroy was likely formed in his head before BoG.

When and where did he say that ? I'm not one to ask for sources, but this is a rare time I'd love to see one for such a statement.

This doesn't make sense, as BOG was presented to him out of nowhere, he was never planning on coming back to the franchise.

On this site there was an interview where Toriyama said he orginally wanted to do RF at the end of the orginal manga run.

When the Song F came out it made Toriyama want to go back to this story and he altered it for post BoG. It was in the Resurrection F thread back when the worst wish teasar came out I believe.

[Matches Malone]

Why would you want Toriyama to give TOEI/Toyotaro more since he is the one who is supposedly in the way of the franchise?

For this very reason:

He gave them a foundation, they couldn't even execute that properly.

Toriyama is nothing short of a genius, which is why I want him to fully participate in DB. The problem is that he's either listening to fans or whoever his editors are. There's also the issue of him leaving a lot of the plot up to Toei and Toyotaro. I want more BOG type stories from him, stories where he tells the "editorial" office that their ideas are shit and decides to re-write the whole thing from scratch without room for "blanks to be filled by Toei", and based on what he believes is best, not what the "fans" want.

The biggest issue I have with Toriyama's current participation in the franchise is that he's limiting himself to telling stories that fans and his editors want told, not stories he himself wants to tell. According to him, Broly was made due to the character's popularity within the fan base and the request of his editor, but wouldn't it have been more interesting to see what kind of story he may have had in mind for the (at the time) next movie ?

[Miracles]

Why would you want Toriyama to give TOEI/Toyotaro more since he is the one who is supposedly in the way of the franchise?

For this very reason:

He gave them a foundation, they couldn't even execute that properly.

Toriyama is nothing short of a genius, which is why I want him to fully participate in DB. The problem is that he's either listening to fans or whoever his editors are. There's also the issue of him leaving a lot of the plot up to Toei and Toyotaro. I want more BOG type stories from him, stories where he tells the "editorial" office that their ideas are shit and decides to re-write the whole thing from scratch without room for "blanks to be filled by Toei", and based on what he believes is best, not what the "fans" want.

The biggest issue I have with Toriyama's current participation in the franchise is that he's limiting himself to telling stories that fans and his editors want told, not stories he himself wants to tell. According to him, Broly was made due to the character's popularity within the fan base and the request of his editor, but wouldn't it have been more interesting to see what kind of story he may have had in mind for the (at the time) next movie ?

Toriyama using the ideas of TOEI and editors isn't the same as not using his own story. If he didn't want to do his own story he wouldn't have trashed TOEI's BoG script. Both RoF and Broly are his plot based on the idea of others. There's a difference. Also IIRC, Toriyama has said he doesn't want to write stories on a consistent basis anymore either.

[TKA]

This would be OK if it wasn't Freeza, one of the franchise's greatest villains. If you want a story where the villain isn't that big of a threat, then introduce someone new who fits that idea, not Freeza. The other issue is that it was following BOG. If you're going to follow up such a great movie, then you better bring your A game to the table, something RF wasn't.

I profoundly disagree.

Check my Broly review in my sig to see exactly why I think Minus, as adapted in the Broly movie, is leagues beyond the original Bardock tv special. The tl;dr version of that is Minus presents a better character and grounds the story of Goku's parentage more.

As for Res F, I prefer it to Trunks and the Tournament of Power. I prefer Super to be low stakes because the time after Buu is supposed to be peaceful. Res F is also honest. It doesn't try to convince you that this new villain is the end of the universe like the typical filler arc or movie does. At this point, I'm too old (over 25, under 29) to fall for that kinda thing.

[Grimlock]

Resurrection F movie was fine. It was the retelling that was bad [TOEI].

No, the movie was just as crap. There's nothing really interesting going on for it.

Dragonball minus was a simple one time reveal of Goku's backstory. It accomplished what it needed to.

The only thing it accomplished was destroying a 24-year-old of established masterpiece (and to give me Gine, but obviously and unfortunately she wasn't enough to make the work itself good).

Broly was a good DB movie. To the point and concise. That's good DB by Toriyama and boosts the franchise.

More like to more flashy fights that may cause diziness packed by another unnecessary villain coming back. If that's good Dragon Ball by modern Toriyama, then holy hell... And I don't see what that movie could possibly boost, but anyway.

As far as Super goes. TOEI/Toyotaro failed to execute it. Toriyama isn't the one making different variations to god forms or adding techniques to it.

No, but he is the one coming up with the foundations for these "different variations to god forms". Add that to he's the one who decided to make two tournaments in a row, an average saga that had potential to be so much more...

Toriyama was the one who had to rewrite TOEI's entire BoG script since it wasn't Dragonball. My God, we would of had Lizard Beerus in TOEI's hands.

Not a fan of lizard? I don't see the problem, we got cat Beerus anyway, which is just as good or bad idea. Whatever animal Beerus could be based on, it wouldn't be a big deal.

[TheNingen]

This would be OK if it wasn't Freeza, one of the franchise's greatest villains. If you want a story where the villain isn't that big of a threat, then introduce someone new who fits that idea, not Freeza. The other issue is that it was following BOG. If you're going to follow up such a great movie, then you better bring your A game to the table, something RF wasn't.

I profoundly disagree.

Check my Broly review in my sig to see exactly why I think Minus, as adapted in the Broly movie, is leagues beyond the original Bardock tv special. The tl;dr version of that is Minus presents a better character and grounds the story of Goku's parentage more.

As for Res F, I prefer it to Trunks and the Tournament of Power. I prefer Super to be low stakes because the time after Buu is supposed to be peaceful. Res F is also honest. It doesn't try to convince you that this new villain is the end of the universe like the typical filler arc or movie does. At this point, I'm too old (over 25, under 29) to fall for that kinda thing.

I'm also in the minority who really doesn't mind the Minus adaptation in Broly at all. They have Gine flat out say it's "odd" for a Saiyan to care about his children or do anything remotely caring for them. Paragus says there isn't such thing as a "trustworthy" Saiyan. For the most part, the lore still isn't fully changed about Saiyans being mostly comprised of dicks. The lines and dialogue suggest that given the timeframe, Bardock WOULDN'T have sent Goku away or even cared to. And he dies not even being acknowledged by Freeza just like in the original special. There's nothing to truly suggest that Bardock was special. And it was a spur of the moment change that even his wife found weird which led to him sending Goku away. He was not pure hearted or really even a good person. He just had a change of heart given the circumstances of him feeling that death was near.