What if the God Hierarchy would look like this?

[SupremeKai25]

You seem really on edge for some reason.. Does this topic involve something personal for you?

If you think this is being "on edge", you need to interact with more people.

This entire comment of yours proves my point even further.

How about you address my arguments, instead of making completely random and useless observations like "you're on edge lol"? Why do I have to do YOUR job as the OP and keep this thread in-topic?

[LoganForkHands73]

Not gonna lie, I'd be down for this idea and I've long thought that there must be a level above Zeno. Maybe Zeno's "father" or superior is just out of the picture for whatever reason, same as Zalama. As others have reasoned, Zeno is a child -- in the words of John Backderf, where are the damn adults? Aside from Daishinkan-sama, of course, but he's clearly a child-minder of sorts. There is a lot of wiggle room. Akira Toriyama's gas mask avatar may be the ultimate force, but he's just a creator avatar, he has no real place in the story beyond the occasional comic relief cameo. I believe it was SupremeKai25's idea, but I've seen the very compelling theory that Zeno, Zuno and Zalama are all separated fragments of what was once a whole, almighty god, representing power, knowledge and creation respectively. However, that raises the question of who or what could've done this to the Omni-King of the multiverse.

Beyond that, it's impossible to argue that there isn't already a long, long precedent for this in Dragon Ball. I mean, one of the first divine beings we're introduced to in the series is literally called God (or the closest Shinto equivalent... I'll be honest, I'm less comfortable with calling Kami 'God' as some people do), then only a few arcs later we're told that there are many divine beings above him, starting with King Enma and Kaio-sama. For a long while, Kaio was accepted as the pinnacle of the food chain, until Toriyama established that three other Kaio watched over different quadrants of the universe, and they all answered to the Dai Kaio. Then an entire higher level of existence is revealed to us with the introduction of the Kaioshin Realm that didn't appear on any of Toriyama's universe maps before. And that's all in the original manga.

Some could say it's a fairly tiresome trope but I quite enjoy it. Super introduced us to every single Hakaishin, Kaioshin and Tenshi, yet still left some wriggle room with lines like "Daishinkan is among the Top 5 Strongest Fighters" and everything surrounding the six deleted universes...

[SupremeKai25]

Not gonna lie, I'd be down for this idea and I've long thought that there must be a level above Zeno. Maybe Zeno's "father" or superior is just out of the picture for whatever reason, same as Zalama. As others have reasoned, Zeno is a child -- in the words of John Backderf, where are the damn adults? Aside from Daishinkan-sama, of course, but he's clearly a child-minder of sorts. There is a lot of wiggle room. Akira Toriyama's gas mask avatar may be the ultimate force, but he's just a creator avatar, he has no real place in the story beyond the occasional comic relief cameo. I believe it was SupremeKai25's idea, but I've seen the very compelling theory that Zeno, Zuno and Zalama are all separated fragments of what was once a whole, almighty god, representing power, knowledge and creation respectively. However, that raises the question of who or what could've done this to the Omni-King of the multiverse.

Actually I got that theory from other people, either here or on reddit, so I won't take credit for that idea. But I did notice the connection with Fused Zamasu's dialogue about him being the knowledge, law, and power of the universe, and perhaps it is all planned. Love them or hate them, Super's storylines are objectively planned ahead of time and inter-connected, so it wouldn't surprise me if the writers already dropped several hints about Zalama and the origins of Zeno.

[PurestEvil]

Actually I got that theory from other people, either here or on reddit, so I won't take credit for that idea. But I did notice the connection with Fused Zamasu's dialogue about him being the knowledge, law, and power of the universe, and perhaps it is all planned. Love them or hate them, Super's storylines are objectively planned ahead of time and inter-connected, so it wouldn't surprise me if the writers already dropped several hints about Zalama and the origins of Zeno.

I do hope that the whole Zalama lore is clarified. I think it would be very beneficial to enrichening the mythos of the Dragon Balls.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Akira Toriyama's gas mask avatar may be the ultimate force, but he's just a creator avatar, he has no real place in the story beyond the occasional comic relief cameo.

That's a thought, though - you could have 'Tori-Sama' as a God trying to write new things into existence, and 'Tori-Shin' (-shima) above him rejecting all his drafts. Meta, dude.

I guess what I'm feeling, between this post and my last one, is that I'd feel rather better about more Gods being in Dragon Ball if they were inserted as more like a silly gag than as a straight-faced expansion of the lore.

[SupremeKai25]

Actually I got that theory from other people, either here or on reddit, so I won't take credit for that idea. But I did notice the connection with Fused Zamasu's dialogue about him being the knowledge, law, and power of the universe, and perhaps it is all planned. Love them or hate them, Super's storylines are objectively planned ahead of time and inter-connected, so it wouldn't surprise me if the writers already dropped several hints about Zalama and the origins of Zeno.

I do hope that the whole Zalama lore is clarified. I think it would be very beneficial to enrichening the mythos of the Dragon Balls.

There are some major mysteries that need to be revealed, yes. For example:

Why is Zeno so powerful, able to erase all of existence in one second, when he is just a childish and naive fool?

Why is Zuno omniscient, able to foretell the future and capable of explaining everything in existence, when he's so weak to the point that Zamasu can kill him?

The common denominator between Zeno and Zuno is that they are perfect in one field, and utterly worthless in everything else. Zeno is the most powerful entity in existence, but for the rest he's a dumb child. Zuno is the most intelligent entity in existence, but for the rest he's worthless and weak. Why is that? I mean, you'd think that an almighty deity like Zeno would be given wisdom and maturity to understand how to use his powers properly for good. And you'd think that an omniscient being like Zuno would be given great strength to protect his knowledge. If he did, then the whole Project Zero Mortals would've never happened, as Zamasu forced Zuno to reveal if it was possible for a God to switch body with a ningen, and how to obtain and use the Super Dragon Balls. Zuno couldn't just say "No, I'm not telling you anything" because then, since he's fodder, he would've been killed.

All of this seems like an obvious design flaw honestly. There's something really wrong with the way the God hierarchy is structured.

And where is Zalama? Why are the Super Dragon Balls so important, but their creator is nowhere to be seen? Just where is he, or (grim thought) what happened to him?

The obvious counter-argument is that "some things should always remain a mystery", but I disagree. I think mystery works only for some time, then by the end of the story you need to have revealed everything. It's not advisable to end a story when there are still major mysteries left. Which is why I hope eventually Toriyama clears everything up about Zeno, Zalama, etc.

Or rather, I think it's good to leave some mysteries at the level of the storyline (like the fate of a certain character), but as far as world-building is concerned, I think everything should be explained eventually. And since we're talking about God hierarchy, we're on the subject of world-building.

[LoganForkHands73]

Akira Toriyama's gas mask avatar may be the ultimate force, but he's just a creator avatar, he has no real place in the story beyond the occasional comic relief cameo.

That's a thought, though - you could have 'Tori-Sama' as a God trying to write new things into existence, and 'Tori-Shin' (-shima) above him rejecting all his drafts. Meta, dude.

I guess what I'm feeling, between this post and my last one, is that I'd feel rather better about more Gods being in Dragon Ball if they were inserted as more like a silly gag than as a straight-faced expansion of the lore.

Ahaha, I think that may have been alluded to a few times in Dr. Slump.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Akira Toriyama's gas mask avatar may be the ultimate force, but he's just a creator avatar, he has no real place in the story beyond the occasional comic relief cameo.

That's a thought, though - you could have 'Tori-Sama' as a God trying to write new things into existence, and 'Tori-Shin' (-shima) above him rejecting all his drafts. Meta, dude.

I guess what I'm feeling, between this post and my last one, is that I'd feel rather better about more Gods being in Dragon Ball if they were inserted as more like a silly gag than as a straight-faced expansion of the lore.

Ahaha, I think that may have been alluded to a few times in Dr. Slump.

In all honesty, the interstitial minicomics of Tori-bot raging in graphic misery at Torishima for flatly (and predictably) rejecting his drafts is one of my favourite things.

[Pantalones]

And where is Zalama? Why are the Super Dragon Balls so important, but their creator is nowhere to be seen? Just where is he, or (grim thought) what happened to him?

Well, if we assume the Super Dragon Balls work the same way as lesser sets of Dragon Balls, he'd have to at least still be alive since the Super Dragon Balls haven't turned into powerless planet-sized rocks.

Of course, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been sealed away or somehow trapped, or he had to sacrifice his life as part of the process required to create the Super Dragon Balls (so the balls/dragon basically are Zalama now and that's why they're still active despite his apparent absence.)

[SSJgogeto]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's someone above Zen'o. A being that, unlike Zen'o, exists in all timelines, or something like that.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Like I said, the more and higher gods you introduce, the more excuses you have to introduce for why they have never done anything before.

Kami not dealing with Pilaf or the Red Ribbon Army makes sense, since they're not really worth his time. He didn't stop Piccolo because Piccolo is his own evil half, so killing him would be killing himself.

Kaio-sama not dealing with any of the solely Earth-related drama is understandable, as, again, it's beneath his notice. And he was simply too weak to fight Vegeta or Freeza.

The Dai Kaio, Shin, and Kibito didn't bother with Freeza because, again, that was just a problem affecting a small part of the universe they oversee. Shin also didn't do anything about Cell or anyone since he didn't even know about them at the time - he's a rookie who never really finished his training due to Buu killing his counterparts and master.

Beerus? Well he was just sleeping for decades at a time, because that's what he does.

Whis and the other angels aren't allowed to interfere.

Zeno is a child who is completely ignorant of what's going on unless someone personally shows it to him.

[Super Murjin]

In Zeno's realm we she his home on top of a jellyfish .... the 12 universes are outside of the house (still on top of the jellyfish) .... if memory serves me right they are floating each over a pillar? Maybe, can't remember.

So what else is out there? In the Zeno realm there are many stars and galaxies in the background. Who lives there? Also what's below the yellow clouds?

[Grimlock]

If those Universes on top of the pillars are the actual Universes, then what you're seeing/referring to as "Zeno's realm" is the Megaverse, it's the Universe/place that encompasses the Multiverse. Not that those spheres need to be the actual Universes, just representation.

In theory, there should be nothing out there (if the above is true). But hey, maybe when Zeno "erases" something/someone, he doesn't actually erase them, he just transports them to far beyond that jellyfish? Since they are so far away and can't come back, everyone assumes he erased them. Just a possibility/a theory. I also based this theory on the fact that Super Shenlong can "unerase" things. He just teleports something/someone back.

The vastness of the Megaverse can also serve as an origin place to a character, either a villain or someone not wanting to get directly involved with the events. It would be kind of in the same vein as the First Firmament. On the very edge of the Megaverse, so far away from the existence you could reach a place "beyond all time and space" and meet the one not wanting to get involved, also kind of in the same vein as the One Above All, but in the case of Dragon Ball, it would be Toribot, obviously. Or in a scenario like this. Imagine if Goku could actually talk to Toriyama.

[miguelnuva1]

Like I said, the more and higher gods you introduce, the more excuses you have to introduce for why they have never done anything before.

Kami not dealing with Pilaf or the Red Ribbon Army makes sense, since they're not really worth his time. He didn't stop Piccolo because Piccolo is his own evil half, so killing him would be killing himself.

Kaio-sama not dealing with any of the solely Earth-related drama is understandable, as, again, it's beneath his notice. And he was simply too weak to fight Vegeta or Freeza.

The Dai Kaio, Shin, and Kibito didn't bother with Freeza because, again, that was just a problem affecting a small part of the universe they oversee. Shin also didn't do anything about Cell or anyone since he didn't even know about them at the time - he's a rookie who never really finished his training due to Buu killing his counterparts and master.

Beerus? Well he was just sleeping for decades at a time, because that's what he does.

Whis and the other angels aren't allowed to interfere.

Zeno is a child who is completely ignorant of what's going on unless someone personally shows it to him.

A god doesn't have to interfere just because they exist. The Christian god doesn't interfere with us and to another lesser extent Superman doesn't do as much for humans as he can either.

A higher God than Zeno could just exist the same way Zeno did prior.

[GodVegetto91]

If those Universes on top of the pillars are the actual Universes, then what you're seeing/referring to as "Zeno's realm" is the Megaverse, it's the Universe/place that encompasses the Multiverse. Not that those spheres need to be the actual Universes, just representation.

In theory, there should be nothing out there (if the above is true). But hey, maybe when Zeno "erases" something/someone, he doesn't actually erase them, he just transports them to far beyond that jellyfish? Since they are so far away and can't come back, everyone assumes he erased them. Just a possibility/a theory. I also based this theory on the fact that Super Shenlong can "unerase" things. He just teleports something/someone back.

The vastness of the Megaverse can also serve as an origin place to a character, either a villain or someone not wanting to get directly involved with the events. It would be kind of in the same vein as the First Firmament. On the very edge of the Megaverse, so far away from the existence you could reach a place "beyond all time and space" and meet the one not wanting to get involved, also kind of in the same vein as the One Above All, but in the case of Dragon Ball, it would be Toribot, obviously. Or in a scenario like this. Imagine if Goku could actually talk to Toriyama.

In real life, energy can not be created or destroyed. Only transformed. (The first law of thermodynamics) This proves that there is no abrahamic God and that we in fact are God, (as we are eternal sinusoidal entities that have always existed.) So if something dimensional gets “incinerated” it is then converted into dimensionless, unextended, mental energy. (Since something can never come from nothing) cause and effect is an eternal system, as was the Big Bang, which was nothing more than a conversion of dimensionless energy into dimensional energy, opposites following eachother in time afterall. Pure mathematics! So this theory of yours would make sense. But this is fiction we’re talking about here unfortunately, so souls can just come into being and can be eternally erased by Zeno. so anything could be the case here as the writers are in charge.

[Smilodon]

Zeno erased an entire timeline, so that pretty much confirms him as end of the hierarchy. Making anyone else this late would be really hard to explain and would come as forced.

I don't think he is the highest god.
We now have 2 Zen'oh... And for sure 1 Zen'o in each timeline... The final god must be one in all timeline and universes...
Zen'o just rule his 12 universes and that jellyfish... What about the place were angels (like Merus) lives? The demon realm? There's a lot of possibilities.

[Grimlock]

The final god must be one in all timeline and universes...

Zeno is one in all Universes, though. Unless you mean "realities/dimension". Well, if he can have timeline counterparts, it's pretty much a given that the Zeno who rules in a dimension where Dragon Ball Super happens is different from the Zeno where Dragon Ball GT and the movies take place...

Even in this context, Kaioshin of Time is still a multiversal singularity. Oddly enough, she's the only one with such status. She only has counterparts from an out-universe perspective (that is, the Kaioshin of Time from Xenoverse is not the same one from Dragon Ball Online, for example).

Zen'o just rule his 12 universes and that jellyfish... What about the place were angels (like Merus) lives? The demon realm? There's a lot of possibilities.

I think it's safe to say Zeno rules everything. After all, everything (Zen) he rules (O).