"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TobyS]

Shouldn't the people discussing Beerus/Broly power levels be in the strength discussion thread? They are literally having the same discussion in there and the redundancy of the comments are mucking up this thread.



Anyway the lore in this chapter is great and actually made me really interested in the series again. Feels like we are going to get some answers regarding the namekians and why Kami was on 'earth, why they were in a different universe and more lore on the dragon balls. Here I thought they were writing them out of dragon balls lore with the arrival of the Super DBs but guess not. Maybe a namekian was an ancient race who traveled universe and dimensions under the care of Zalama.

I kind of like Granolah, not cause of his generic motivation but his personality and how he copes with things. I just hope he isn't going to be just a racist type character who hates Goku cause what his race done not his own actions. That'd be a waste, I'd rather see Freeze be the big bad over him eventhough I'm not sure we need another Freeze arc. Not sure if his wish will be granted, it was only 2 balls and a tiny dragon (plz no lowbrow comments, that wasn't intentional ) and the scale of dragon usually reflects their power. So maybe it won't be instant and slowly grows or something.

I doubted it at first but Vegeta’s powerup may be just a God of destruction mode. Showing of hakai, telling him there's nothing wrong with destruction, the manga making sure to acknowledge that Goku did NOT use it correctly but messed up while whis saying its not easily mastered (giving us the reason for why it'll be a Vegeta exclusive tech even though Goku showed it off) and the line about destruction before creation seems to fit. Makes sense Toppo did show that GoD is a transformation that does come with a powerup.

Honestly seeing a UI Goku fighting with a GoD Vegeta would be sick.

Toppo having a god form was anime only this is the manga thread.
The number of people who only now read the post ToP manga and apply anime onl scenes is really annoying...

[Kinokima]

Shouldn't the people discussing Beerus/Broly power levels be in the strength discussion thread? They are literally having the same discussion in there and the redundancy of the comments are mucking up this thread.



Anyway the lore in this chapter is great and actually made me really interested in the series again. Feels like we are going to get some answers regarding the namekians and why Kami was on 'earth, why they were in a different universe and more lore on the dragon balls. Here I thought they were writing them out of dragon balls lore with the arrival of the Super DBs but guess not. Maybe a namekian was an ancient race who traveled universe and dimensions under the care of Zalama.

I kind of like Granolah, not cause of his generic motivation but his personality and how he copes with things. I just hope he isn't going to be just a racist type character who hates Goku cause what his race done not his own actions. That'd be a waste, I'd rather see Freeze be the big bad over him eventhough I'm not sure we need another Freeze arc. Not sure if his wish will be granted, it was only 2 balls and a tiny dragon (plz no lowbrow comments, that wasn't intentional ) and the scale of dragon usually reflects their power. So maybe it won't be instant and slowly grows or something.

I doubted it at first but Vegeta’s powerup may be just a God of destruction mode. Showing of hakai, telling him there's nothing wrong with destruction, the manga making sure to acknowledge that Goku did NOT use it correctly but messed up while whis saying its not easily mastered (giving us the reason for why it'll be a Vegeta exclusive tech even though Goku showed it off) and the line about destruction before creation seems to fit. Makes sense Toppo did show that GoD is a transformation that does come with a powerup.

Honestly seeing a UI Goku fighting with a GoD Vegeta would be sick.

Toppo having a god form was anime only this is the manga thread.
The number of people who only now read the post ToP manga and apply anime onl scenes is really annoying...

This is also a problem that comes from having two different versions of the same story and why I hate it

I just hope if they ever do adapt this manga arcs they will adapt them as is

[Lord Frieza]

Shouldn't the people discussing Beerus/Broly power levels be in the strength discussion thread? They are literally having the same discussion in there and the redundancy of the comments are mucking up this thread.



Anyway the lore in this chapter is great and actually made me really interested in the series again. Feels like we are going to get some answers regarding the namekians and why Kami was on 'earth, why they were in a different universe and more lore on the dragon balls. Here I thought they were writing them out of dragon balls lore with the arrival of the Super DBs but guess not. Maybe a namekian was an ancient race who traveled universe and dimensions under the care of Zalama.

I kind of like Granolah, not cause of his generic motivation but his personality and how he copes with things. I just hope he isn't going to be just a racist type character who hates Goku cause what his race done not his own actions. That'd be a waste, I'd rather see Freeze be the big bad over him eventhough I'm not sure we need another Freeze arc. Not sure if his wish will be granted, it was only 2 balls and a tiny dragon (plz no lowbrow comments, that wasn't intentional ) and the scale of dragon usually reflects their power. So maybe it won't be instant and slowly grows or something.

I doubted it at first but Vegeta’s powerup may be just a God of destruction mode. Showing of hakai, telling him there's nothing wrong with destruction, the manga making sure to acknowledge that Goku did NOT use it correctly but messed up while whis saying its not easily mastered (giving us the reason for why it'll be a Vegeta exclusive tech even though Goku showed it off) and the line about destruction before creation seems to fit. Makes sense Toppo did show that GoD is a transformation that does come with a powerup.

Honestly seeing a UI Goku fighting with a GoD Vegeta would be sick.

Toppo having a god form was anime only this is the manga thread.
The number of people who only now read the post ToP manga and apply anime onl scenes is really annoying...

This is true but didn’t Toppo increase his power by accessing God Ki in the manga? He didn’t transform but he got a lot stronger.

I wonder what’s gotten Beerus all motivated to train Vegeta anyway? Why now after all this time after just letting Whis do all the other stuff?

[Trek405]

That said the vegeta/beerus segment felt off to me. When has vegeta ever been weighed down by the sins of his past? I like that plot point in the moro arc bc vegeta was back on planet namek after so much time had passed. He did horrible things to them so it's understandable old feelings of regret would surface as he was among them again. But as far as vegeta being held back by his sins and being "trapped by the past"? I've never gotten that vibe from him. Doesn't really fit imo.

I agree though I feel this is also just set up for Granolah who is a living reminder of the Saiyan sins

I guess granolah being stuck in the past and vegeta letting go of it could be an interesting angle it just seems off to me. I guess I'll just wait yo see how it plays out before judging

[Kinokima]

That said the vegeta/beerus segment felt off to me. When has vegeta ever been weighed down by the sins of his past? I like that plot point in the moro arc bc vegeta was back on planet namek after so much time had passed. He did horrible things to them so it's understandable old feelings of regret would surface as he was among them again. But as far as vegeta being held back by his sins and being "trapped by the past"? I've never gotten that vibe from him. Doesn't really fit imo.

I agree though I feel this is also just set up for Granolah who is a living reminder of the Saiyan sins

I guess granolah being stuck in the past and vegeta letting go of it could be an interesting angle it just seems off to me. I guess I'll just wait yo see how it plays out before judging

It seems Bardock’s group was who destroyed Granolah’s planet so that would give Granolah a connection to Goku but Vegeta not being able to let go of his guilt as a Saiyan also gives him a connection to Granolah

I guess you could argue just because Vegeta never mentioned his thoughts on the Saiyans sins as a race doesn’t mean it wasn’t weighing him down but it certainly wasn’t built upon before this so it’s obvious to push the themes of the arc and connect the characters together.

[DiscountDabi]

Also The New Dragons Name is Toronbo. As pointed out by DBS Chronicles on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... 57000?s=20

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 69 (heh):

- I found Beerus' speech to Vegeta to be quite... weird. Or at least poorly constructed. Vegeta never really a person to have doubt in himself. Hell, one of his defining traits is his absolutely certainly -- to the point of overconfidence and arrogance -- in what he says and what he does. And I have idea what doubt itself has to do with Vegeta having extended guilt over what the Saiyans did in the past. I would have thought that having that kind of growth for a character like him would be positively acknowledged in-universe, but instead it was artificially weaponized to have conflict with Beerus. And the fight itself served no purpose as the gap in strength between Vegeta and Beerus is so huge that it prevents any tension from being created. Beerus could have easily made the same point without lifting a finger. Not every chapter needs to have a fight.

- I hated it when the Super anime stated that Beerus was the one who gave the order to destroy Planet Vegeta and I still hate it with how it has been outright stated in the manga. Stupid as fuck retcon for many reasons.* And I don't understand why Vegeta would give a shit about Beerus being the one who gave the green light to wiping out the Saiyan race considering Vegeta stopped giving a shit about the circumstances of how the Saiyans were wiped out all the way back at the Freeza arc and showed no empathy to last remnants of the old Saiyan race when confronted by Paragus and Broly in the Super movie. There are ways you can instigate a fight without sloppy retcons or bad character writing.

- Not gonna lie, I got a kick out of the "Before creation comes destruction" being throw in a exclamation point to Beerus speech.

- Granolah is shaping up to being a very intriguing character. Really liked the inner conflict he had with his burning desire for revenge weighing up against the logistics of how he should go about it and whether it would be worth all of the potential hassle. It's nothing mind-blowing or nuanced but it's interesting enough to keep me hooked.

- Very convenient exposition about the circumstances of there being more Dragon Balls on others planets. But Dragon Ball was never really subtle with it's world-building so it's alright. But on the subject of more Dragon Balls...

- ...Why does this story arc need more Dragon Balls? One of the primary reason that Dragon Ball has literally no sense of tension after the Freeza arc was due to the fact that another set of glorified reset buttons were introduced, and it didn't help they were more powerful than the previous set of Dragon Balls. And Super doubled down on this by adding another set Dragon Balls. And now they're not only another set of Dragon Balls, but it implied could be multiple Dragon Balls on many other planets. If there is one thing Dragon Ball needs less of, it's, ironically, dragon balls.

- Granolah actually went ahead and made the wish that every villain who was after the Dragon Balls should have done. Well played.

- The design for the new wish granting dragon is cool as hell.

Overall thoughts... a lot exposition and set up for the next story beats. It's all fine.

*

Spoiler:

The revelation that Beerus told Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta just kills any sort of irony or drama the Freeza arc had, and it undermines all of the antagonism that Freeza had towards the Saiyans and Bardock, Goku and Vegeta had to Freeza. And that by default make their stories with Freeza much less meaningful. I vastly much prefer the implications that Beerus perhaps had planned to destroy Planet Vegeta himself but didn't get the chance to, than Super just outright stating that Beerus did tell Freeza to blow it up.

[Kinokima]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 69 (heh):

- I found Beerus' speech to Vegeta to quite... weird. Or at least poorly constructed. Vegeta never really a person to have doubt in himself. Hell, one of his defining traits is his absolutely certainly -- to the point of overconfidence and arrogance -- in what he says and what he does. And I have idea what doubt itself has to do with Vegeta having extended guilt over what the Saiyans did in the past. I would have thought that having that kind of growth for a character like him would be positively acknowledged in-universe, but instead it was artificially weaponized to have conflict with Beerus. And the fight itself served no purpose as gap in strength between Vegeta and Beerus is so huge that prevents any tension from being created. Beerus could have easily made the same point without lifting a finger. Not every chapter needs to have a fight.

Vegeta often shows outwardly bravado and arrogance especially to his opponent but that doesn’t necessarily mean he never shows internal doubt which I do feel people miss about his character.

That being said as I have said earlier I agree this particular aspect of Vegeta is not one that was really developed before. I don’t think it’s completely out of character for Vegeta to care about the Saiyans sins. But it does feel like it’s been introduced artificially here too build onto the themes of the arc.

[emperior]

The arc keeps on delivering top-notch chapters. It’s been so long since we last got so much lore, world-building and characterization. It’s really fantastic.

I don’t care much about how Vegeta got mad at Beerus or how Beerus acknowledged what Battle of Gods and Resurrection F already made clear. It doesn’t detract from the reasoning as to why Freeza decided to wipe out the Saiyans.

And Vegeta had right to get mad at Beerus cause he was literally getting bullied. What would be out of character is if Vegeta suddenly holds a grudge against Beerus for having suggested the destruction of his planet.
I also believe it makes sense for Vegeta to hold a bit of a baggage for what he’s done in the past. He’s now basically an hero, as he has helped saving the universe a lot of times and even got a medal for that. And it’s good development to have him first acknowledge all his sins in the prior arc to then have his arc in the current story being about letting go of his past forever to get stronger.

[Yasai9001]

I agree though I feel this is also just set up for Granolah who is a living reminder of the Saiyan sins

I guess granolah being stuck in the past and vegeta letting go of it could be an interesting angle it just seems off to me. I guess I'll just wait yo see how it plays out before judging

It seems Bardock’s group was who destroyed Granolah’s planet so that would give Granolah a connection to Goku but Vegeta not being able to let go of his guilt as a Saiyan also gives him a connection to Granolah

I guess you could argue just because Vegeta never mentioned his thoughts on the Saiyans sins as a race doesn’t mean it wasn’t weighing him down but it certainly wasn’t built upon before this so it’s obvious to push the themes of the arc and connect the characters together.

Bardock’s group and a plethora of other Freeza Force soldiers were there to wreck Planet Cereal. It wasn’t just Bardock’s crew. I believe it’s safe to assume that the Cerealians were such good and perhaps powerful snipers that not only did the Saiyans need to transform into Oozaru, but that they needed hundreds of soldiers to assist them as well.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The revelation that Beerus told Freeza to blow up Planet Vegeta just kills any sort of irony or drama the Freeza arc had, and it undermines all of the antagonism that Freeza had towards the Saiyans and Bardock, Goku and Vegeta had to Freeza. And that by default make their stories with Freeza much less meaningful. I vastly much prefer the implications that Beerus perhaps had planned to destroy Planet Vegeta himself but didn't get the chance to, than Super just outright stating that Beerus did tell Freeza to blow it up.

I'm not a fan of the whole 'Beerus ordered the destruction of Planet Vegeta' thing, but DB Minus and DBS Broly left intact Freeza's concern about the growth of the Saiyans and his willingness to exterminate the race before the Super Saiyan appear.

So does it really matter? I prefer it to be used for some story beat (as a way to strengthen the relationship being built between Beerus and Vegeta) than a random lines played in the last movies that will never be used again

However I agree that Vegeta shouldn't care about that, just as he didn't care about Paragus's grudge at Broly movie. I prefer to believe that it was Beerus' constant provocations that made him angry rather than just this revelation. Anyway, it's not like he's going to stop training with Beerus or hold a grudge for it (as I've seen some people imply), it's not that big of a deal

[Lord Frieza]

Just to point this out, those new dragon balls are likely a one arc set.

The old namekian is on his last legs and will likely die soon. Once he goes, so do the these dragon balls and they will likely be gone for good.

[Chuquita]

I agree on Vegeta's new character arc here feeling artificial to fit the plot, and that we didn't need yet another set of dragon balls.

Granola has a solid backstory.

This chapter on the whole though... it's mostly really well-written, but it's way too dry for me. Where the anime could get so absurd it was embarrassing at times, the manga gets so straightforward it loses its charm and ceases being fun imo.

It was a good chapter, but it wasn't engaging to me based on my personal interests. I can see how others would enjoy it though.

[Magnificent Ponta]

My impression about Vegeta's feelings and "doubts" about his past sins is that they link up with his broader intention to atone in the Moro arc, and his conviction that he is a villain after all: that is to say, these things are all evidence of Vegeta's own emerging heroism, and a deepening of a personal moral sense to go with it. Sure, Vegeta has been perfectly fine with what he's done before (seeing it as the benchmark of his own sense of self, in the Buu arc, no less)...but he was a terrible person back then, and he is on the road to being something better than that right now. So it is unsurprising that he should be thinking about those times differently now, to how he did once upon a time.

As for Beerus's advice on that: he doesn't go into it in great detail, as it's around a fight, but there's a clear comparison to be drawn between Beerus's own attitude and the attitude of Ultra Instinct. The latter relies on the user not thinking of anything and remaining placid, and it rewards the user with a perfect sense of applied power, as the body does it all for them. Beerus, though, says he thinks about nothing but destruction, and it seems his body rewards him with limitless destructive power as a result. While he hasn't phrased it in terms of a specific technique in this Chapter (more like the way he approaches his world more generally), there seem to be some clear potential points of general comparison between what Ultra Instinct does and what Beerus is talking about.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The technique for Vegeta to learn is Hakai, that's the technique

No, it's not Hakai, at least not specifically. Beerus blows up one of the planets and Vegeta asks if the amount of power he used was the technique he was referring to, and Beerus says it's just a "glimpse" of what he could do. It was not really clear what this technique is, since the chapter portrayed the power that Beerus demonstrated in a more general way (with the user needing to think of nothing but destruction / getting rid of unnecessary thoughts in order to be able to handle that power) instead of being limited to just one technique.

But I believe that Hakai will eventually be encompassed in all this destruction power thing that Beerus referred to anyway

[Brettjr25]

Regardless of whether or not Toppo GoD was in the manga doesn't change the fact that all signs are pointing to Beerus teaching Vegeta the ways and power of a GoD.

[SupremeKai25]

The technique for Vegeta to learn is Hakai, that's the technique

(with the user needing to think of nothing but destruction / getting rid of unnecessary thoughts in order to be able to handle that power)

This smells like the concept behind the GoD Toppo form from the anime. That with Toppo forsaking justice and honor to focus solely on destruction.

[JulieYBM]

The thread of Vegeta's guilt for the sin of the Saiyans feels like a response to the threads Toyo-tarou was trying to writing in the Moro arc. Personally, I think it works for the story Toriyama is trying to tell here. Vegeta is weighed down by guilt for something he has no control over and it is limiting his perspective on his power. Beers, as a Destruction God, is not weighed down by those sorts of things, so his power has a clarity to it.

So, we have Vegeta and we have Granola, two swords stuck in the swap that is the past. Granola is actively seeking ways to avenge the past while Vegeta is seeking ways to atone for the past. It's really a nice set-up for a central conflict that will explode when these two meet, in my opinion. Vegeta has to lose their first encounter, do more thinking and then come back later with an answer that can match the conviction of Granola's revenge.

I don't foresee the Dragon Balls on Cereal actually helping Granola here. I think the Dragon will announce that he is unable to grant that wish and then the wish will be stolen by the Heetas. Of course, that then begs the question "How will Granola become strong enough to face down Freeza?" Will, he does have a Namekian friend, who is to say he won't be able to unlock his hidden powers?

I like how Freeza is this arc's Khan Noonien Singh, something of a reference to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Khan is spoken of, even if he isn't on screen, his presence is always felt. Here, Freeza is a force that haunts in the background, propelling the characters into action. This is just such solid, solid storytelling and so exciting. It feels like Toriyama is working with an editor that really knows how to make a story exciting. If there isn't a new editor perhaps Toriyama is simply taking interest in making his stories more complex for once? Powering-up his writing abilities after all these years is such a welcomed gift.

Really hoping Gokuu just stays in the background. Unless Bardock's legacy is brought up and thrust on Gokuu to answer for there really isn't any need for him to be involved.

[Mister_Popo]

Very descent chapter.

The chapter has some convincing lore and world building.

I like how there is a lot of focuss on Granolla and his homeplanet.
We may not need the other universes immediately, as there is still a lot to tell and exploit about Universe 7.
Other races with different backstories.
If there are Earth and Namekian Dragon Balls, why couldn't there be other planets with Dragon Balls where other Namekians live, if they are tied in to the Namekian lore they came from another realm? Makes perfect sense.

Beerus vs Vegeta fights always have been entertaining since BOG, a true classic.
Beerus somehow always manages to hit Vegetas soft spot, both mentally as physically.

Freeza is not my favourite character because i think he's kinda overused in Super already.
But i am looking forward on how he will get written and tied into this arc.

[FortuneSSJ]

-Chapter 69-

Toyotaro's panelling improvement is undeniable and has been a joy to see!

Beerus saying he's the one who told Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta is just another stupid retcon done by modern Toriyama. Even in DB Minus it's obvious Freeza still did it by his own reasons.

Beerus' fights against Goku or Vegeta aren't interesting for me because of the formula: Beerus power = Any mortal power + 1
No matter how many forms Vegeta and Goku unlock, Toriyama doesn't seem interested in making Beerus weaker than them. Some people would be disappointed to see MUI Goku vs Beerus and realize Beerus would still win in the end.

The direction they're taking Vegeta character since Moro arc is an interesting one. First Vegeta had to confront the Namekians after what he did and now he will eventually meet Granolah and deal with his race sins.

I don't mind Vegeta learning hakai. Now let's see if they don't find a excuse to give him a new hair color...

Freeza has been indirectly one the best things of this arc. Everything is revolving around him and we finally we can see the impact he and his army had in Universe 7, something that DBZ did explore. I can't wait to see him. From all the older characters, he became the most enjoyable to see since ToP anime.

Having another dragon ball sets and only need two to summon the dragon it's way too convenient. I don't like it, but I will wait to see what kind of story they want to tell. Monaito dying of old age later and this DB set going with him would be a good approach.

With new Namekian lore there's no reason why Piccolo couldn't have a power up, but unfortunately I don't expect anything.

The new dragon has a cool design. I don't expect the wish to be granted because it will be beyond its power, otherwise modern Toriyama's writing is beyond saving and may as well have Pilaf wish for the same thing next arc.

I'm interested to see how the relationship between Granola and Montairo will go after this. Because whatever happens, the dragon balls will scatter and Monaito will notice the dragon ball is missing. Even if Granolah conveniently finds it and put it on the same place to go unnoticed, its power should still be sealed. One way or another, Monaito should notice something is wrong.