Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

[BWri]

Gas is in a weird spot. The focus of this arc has been mostly on fights involving Goku, Vegeta, and Granolah. There was some setup with OG73 but I'm not sure where this will come in to play. This whole time Gas has been an afterthought, though a weirdly powerful one. As a mostly silent "get shit done" sort of character, he would need actual screentime to express himself physically, which he is doing now. If he is going to be the focus of a sizeable portion of the arc, perhaps even the climax, more time could have been spent exploring the character.

All that to say, I don't find him boring, because he's just getting to do stuff and the stuff he's doing is cool and expressive and I like cool and expressive. He's a stoic fighter and so his personality and desires should come through better as the fight progresses. Also, he is very dedicated to his role, which I find strangely compelling.

[Totamo]

One thing I really dislike is that anyone can wish to be the strongest if they know these Cerealian balls exist, and on top of that the no limitations on these balls is just plot convenience to me. Seems contrived.

Other than that, great chapter. I don't think I've seen a mallet used by a villain in Dragonball before, unless you include Arale (could be even wrong there).

I think the point is that the strongest in the universe changes all the time so its stupid to wish for.

[Cipher]

Also, what is the meaning behind Macki's name?

Maki = kindling/firewood in Japanese

Not sure why the English version felt compelled to add the “c,” but it is what it is.

[Magnificent Ponta]

However, that dynamic isn't much reflected in this chapter. It's Gas's chapter. His name's in the title. Those 45 pages are focused solely on the brawns of the group (without the brains, and I should mention again that Gas has only peripheral relevance to Granolah's background and character arc) and short of having Elec catch up to the rest of them midway through, there's not a lot of opportunities this month to see those characters bounce off of each other in interesting ways. What we see is what we get.

I don't know about that - his wish is the title, but only a few pages in we see it's not really his, but one Elec is pushing on him. Gas protests (and has done since the beginning of the arc) that he's fine to take on whoever, whenever (like in Chapter 71, where he complains that Elec didn't let him fight Granolah), but he isn't being listened to by the rest of his unit - they pay lip service to his strength and go through the motions of insisting how special he is and they play up his importance (like in the 'ta-daaaah' reveal in this Chapter), but it's clear they don't really take it all that seriously because they don't put actual confidence in his strength. In this Chapter, when all's said and done, Macki agrees "Maybe Gas didn't need that wish after all to handle these chumps" - which has been at the source of Gas's basic protest since Chapter 68; the rest of his unit have been riding roughshod over his own self-conception as strong enough to handle himself against anyone, only to basically agree with it when they've had their way.

And this dynamic comes through in everything Gas says to Granolah in this Chapter, because it's clear that it's the way he's pretty much always thought ("I never liked you"; "I provide enough muscle for the Heeters. You are not needed"; "Elec saw value in your strength, but I never did"); the wish hasn't changed anything for Gas in this respect - the only thing that he says has changed is that he now has the freedom to dispose of Granolah. We can also see the difference between Elec's view of Granolah and Gas's in flashback (Gas looks disdainful as Elec covets the young Granolah's skills). It's clear that each instance of the family's (particularly Elec's) treatment of Gas's strength has reinforced the idea that he isn't capable of doing the things he clearly feels he can do on his own - he either needs extra goons, or a magic power-up, or whatever else - and he views this as an insult. It's clear he's not happy with any of it, but the others (particularly Elec) aren't that bothered by this, because they force it all through anyway. The dynamic is centred around the idea of Gas's sufficiency. So necessarily, that dynamic doesn't end with Gas's character, even though it focuses on him - it's really a team-relational issue, and it is presented as such. So I'd say the unit dynamic is definitely there in this Chapter, even central to it.

This is speculative, but in combination with Chapter 77 in particular, I get the feeling that the dynamic of Gas's strength being taken less than seriously among his family in fact even while it is praised in theory may well take its cue from his defeat to the much weaker Bardock, however it may have happened. It may well be the key incident that has undermined their confidence in Gas's strength and its worth, which may also stand at the root of why Elec thought it was necessary to bring in people like Granolah - the aftermath, where his family question his sufficiency, is the true indignity Gas feels he suffers, rather than simply the defeat itself.

[Smilodon]

Also, what is the meaning behind Macki's name?

I think it's related to Machine.

Gas = Gasoline
Elec = Electricity
Oil = Oil
Maki = Machine (in portuguese is "Máquina" and the sound is very similar to Maki)

[Mr Baggins]

So I'd say the unit dynamic is definitely there in this Chapter, even central to it.

It's there through Gas's POV, presented via Elec's level of confidence for Gas as his strongest henchman. I think you're rephrasing what I've already criticized.

I'm referring to the unit as presented from the POV of the guy who operates and controls it. Yes, that matters more than Gas for reasons I've laid out; Elec is their leader. He alone conceives their goals and directs the group towards them, has been the sole engineer for everything that has transpired, and is the only Heeter with a relationship and connection to Granolah. How will Granolah react when he faces his mom's killer? What kind of ulterior motives does Elec have? Those are the dynamics I find engaging and relevant.

I don't care about their expectations for Gas. It means nothing to me, but more importantly, it means nothing for the story. Future chapters could make all of this somehow key to Gas's defeat as you say, but that's immaterial to Granolah's arc. It's immaterial to Granolah's background and motives. It's his story.

Again, Elec is the most intriguing member and really the only one moving the plot. The Heeters aren't a unit without his presence. Gas is his mouthpiece right now at best, and I don't find that compelling.

[JulieYBM]

I imagine the full Bardock fight will be intercut with Gas' final fight.

Can't wait to see Bardock unleash Super Saiyan or something against him.

[PurestEvil]

Can't wait to see Bardock unleash Super Saiyan or something against him.

Hell no. Bardock should remain as an ordinary dude thrown in extraordinary situations, not some "special" guy. Keep that hogwash in "Episode of Bardock".

[JulieYBM]

Can't wait to see Bardock unleash Super Saiyan or something against him.

Hell no. Bardock should remain as an ordinary dude thrown in extraordinary situations, not some "special" guy. Keep that hogwash in "Episode of Bardock".

No, they should include it because I like Super Bardock. He's cute and cool and a tired oji-san. It's very moe-moe.

Bardock becomes a Super Saiyan, roughs up Gas and then dies a week later. Moe-moe.

[PurestEvil]

No, they should include it because I like Super Bardock. He's cute and cool and a tired oji-san. It's very moe-moe.

More like cliché

[JulieYBM]

No, they should include it because I like Super Bardock. He's cute and cool and a tired oji-san. It's very moe-moe.

More like cliché

Clichés are good, especially when they're coming from a DILF.

[Grimlock]

Either that or give Bardock a mask with an infinite symbol. He would still be an ordinary dude... with a mask.


I went to check the panels which mentioned him and it seems how Bardock beat that random one will become a plot point in the future (?). Surely interrupting Monaito like that can only lead the characters to ask how Bardock managed to beat him, right? There's another chance to see it and hopefully Toyotaro delivers it, and doesn't take that long to show it...

[Magnificent Ponta]

I think you're rephrasing what I've already criticized.

I'm not so sure that I am, insofar as you seem to be saying that the only narratively compelling aspects of Heeter activity can be reduced solely to whatever Elec conceives and does (forgive me if I've misunderstood, here), and I am saying that I don't think it really can be so reduced because the interaction between the four Heeters is dictating specifically how that narrative is unfolding.

Elec is their leader. He alone conceives their goals and directs the group towards them, has been the sole engineer for everything that has transpired, and is the only Heeter with a relationship and connection to Granolah. How will Granolah react when he faces his mom's killer? What kind of ulterior motives does Elec have? Those are the dynamics I find engaging and relevant.

I won't disagree that these dynamics are indeed engaging and relevant; I am saying that in my opinion, however, they're not sufficient to the story being told in the way it has specifically been presented - the tension within the Heeter unit is there for a narrative reason, and one can find the potentialities there to be similarly compelling. You may not, and that's fine, but consider the following as an example:

Chapter 68
Oil: Hey, Elec -- Why didja go and mention Freeza?
Elec: Our friend Granolah has gotten crazy strong, and the power's gone to his head. We'd be in hot water if he ever got stronger than you, Gas.
Gas: He could never defeat me.
Elec: Darn right. You're the pride and joy of our little family.
Macki: Stronger than Gas, even? Not possible.
Elec: Yeah, it's unlikely, but...hedging risks is the rule of business. So, y'see...Freeza's gonna ice the guy for us.
Macki: So that's your angle.

This conversation, and the plan it outlines, doesn't make any sense when reduced to Elec's decision-making in a vacuum (they just cancelled all of Granolah's work contracts and Gas had him at his mercy 5 pages earlier - why defer this to someone else in the immediate future and incur other risk?), but it makes plenty of sense in terms of a tension within the Heeter unit, specifically between Gas and Elec - that is, Elec and Gas have fundamentally different opinions on how to solve problems and on what's really valuable, even when what they're saying seems to accord, and they don't view each other in a wholly familial, trusting way. And the other stuff I mentioned for Chapter 78 specifically also points this same tension up. It's not just 'Elec acts through his team'; rather it's the way the interaction bears out and feeds back into what's happening, and the further decisions Elec makes, that I wanted to highlight as what I perceive to be the source of what I find actually interesting, here.

I don't care about their expectations for Gas. It means nothing to me, but more importantly, it means nothing for the story. Future chapters could make all of this somehow key to Gas's defeat as you say, but that's immaterial to Granolah's arc. It's immaterial to Granolah's background and motives. It's his story.

Again, Elec is the most intriguing member and really the only one moving the plot. The Heeters aren't a unit without his presence. Gas is his mouthpiece right now at best, and I don't find that compelling.

Elec may make plans and direct the rest of his unit, but even though he sets the agenda, he isn't sufficient to make what's going on in the arc happen. Plans aren't enough. He needed Oil's role eyes and ears to get the intel on Zuno, the Saiyans, and the Dragon Balls; he needed Macki's face and voice to present a plausible enough situation that would bring Granolah and the Saiyans together into the central combat of the arc; now he needs Gas's strength to clear the decks, even though he puts no confidence in it, and that tension is something that I'm looking forward to see bearing further fruit. I don't think these things are mutually exclusive - I don't see it as 'the Elec stuff is compelling, the other Heeter stuff is not because they can just be reduced to his appendages', but rather 'the Heeters are a unit that has internal tension which makes things turn out the way they do, and that is compelling (and potentially even more so than what we've seen so far)'.

At least, it is to me and the way I read this arc. My reading may well be found inadequate depending on how things turn out, but I just wanted to try to put my finger on what I think the point of difference between us is here. Hopefully it makes sense.

[ssj3kakarot]

Maybe the last wish is for Freezy-poof to be summoned and killed?

But after Vegeta’s speech, it definitely seems like Granny will go double-eyed-master-blaster on Gas for an epic show down

The way it was written, with Vegeta imparting words of wisdom was nice. Yes it’s Goku and Vegeta’s show, but it would be fitting to have Gas and Granolah have the spot light. I’m sure Goku/Vegeta have a role to play but we will see.

[Mr Baggins]

I'm not so sure that I am

I'm saying your post was a more elaborate phrasing of my attributing Gas to the focus of the chapter. I'm aware that there's a "dynamic" here (albeit not the ones I think are narratively integral), but it's told chiefly from Gas's perspective. That's what I've been referring to and aiming at, only in less words because I'd rather avoid making my posts verbose.

I don't want to get caught up in semantics, so that'll be my last word as far as that specific point goes.

I don't see it as 'the Elec stuff is compelling, the other Heeter stuff is not because they can just be reduced to his appendages', but rather 'the Heeters are a unit that has internal tension which makes things turn out the way they do, and that is compelling

To be clear, I understand what you're saying. Internal discord might well serve as the source of the Heeters' downfall, if that's the angle the plot aspires to take. I actually don't think it's the worst route to go -- the bulk of my critique is mostly leveled at how all this is currently presented, and as you said, we don't know what's going to happen yet -- but their (possible) in-group tension is a subplot with almost no bearing on Granolah's story and character arc, so it's fundamentally irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

Your assessment of my stance also isn't wrong. As Elec is the only one with these ties to the main arc character, I absolutely see the rest of the unit as his appendages; anything outside of that is fluff, and not particularly entertaining fluff since Gas is not a particularly engaging henchman.

I don't mean to imply that others can't find this compelling, though. If you like it, more power to you. But I think I've done a more than adequate job of outlining why it doesn't appeal to me.

[MCDaveG]

So now we know the wish and a villain finally showed up.

I really like Vegeta's character arc in the post-anime manga. Would love to see it as well in anime continuation.
Also, wouldn't bet on saying this, but I would really love to see Freeza again and see his interaction with his former colleagues now.

Not much of fan of buffed up Gas, I think it would be more up to DB standards to be the same runt as he was before, but strongest in the universe.

[LoganForkHands73]

One of the most economically-paced chapters we've had so far. Felt like almost twice the length of a normal chapter, though unfortunately that may say more about the pacing of past chapters. Excellent artwork, great action, funny gags. Can't fault it on its own. Stand outs have to be Macki and Oil presenting the new Super-Unleaded Gas to the class, then the finger-laser carving Granola's ship in half.

However, I do agree with what Baggins and others are saying about Gas's character. I'm not sure what emotions Tori and Toyo were expecting to incite here. Building up this character by... having him do and say absolutely nothing for most of the story so far, then suddenly have him become extremely relevant. Yeah, I know they've been foreshadowing his suugoi strength for a while, but he's had nothing else going for him. When his defining character beat is saying he mildly dislikes Granola... that's pretty lame. If this thread of him feeling envious of Granola's attention from Elec was given more exploration, it could've felt more cathartic.

I've kinda come to terms at this point that wishing to become the Strongest in the Universe also comes with strange extra abilities like creating meticulous ki weapons à la Goku Black in the anime, no extra charge (assuming Gas never had these abilities before, but who can say). Granola suddenly gained flight, Hakai, cloning and Moro's volcanic blast among others. Even if they don't make much sense, Gas uses his Green Lantern powers in funny and creative ways so it's fine with me. Hell, 90% of new techniques seen in the classic Tenkaichi Budokai matches appear out of nowhere and barely ever appear again, because Toriyama thought they'd be cool at the time.

I also think the result of Bardock's battle will be integral to the heroes' victory. Gas's pressure point may be his family. Perhaps in order to win, they need to embrace some Saiyan pragmatism again and hold Macki and Oil to ransom. Probably too dark though.

[Peach]

This might be a good place to conclude the Dragon Ball Super manga before the movie comes out.


This arc could end with-
Granolah killing Gas. However, Elec fled to Frieza for protection after it was clear Gas would lose. This leads to Goku, Vegeta, and Granolah chasing him down. The final fight could be Granolah, Vegeta, and Goku vs. Broly, Frieza, and Elec. With Frieza having done a bit of training since we last saw him and posing a significant challenge. Frieza may manipulate Broly by telling him one of the Saiyans killed his father.

[Skar]

This might be a good place to conclude the Dragon Ball Super manga before the movie comes out.


This arc could end with-
Granolah killing Gas. However, Elec fled to Frieza for protection after it was clear Gas would lose. This leads to Goku, Vegeta, and Granolah chasing him down. The final fight could be Granolah, Vegeta, and Goku vs. Broly, Frieza, and Elec. With Frieza having done a bit of training since we last saw him and posing a significant challenge. Frieza may manipulate Broly by telling him one of the Saiyans killed his father.

That would be interesting! I personally don't think we'll see Broly this arc. He was in the teaser trailer for Super Hero so he maybe he kept to himself since his movie with Goku occasionally visiting him. I still hope to see Freeza since both Granolah and the Heaters want to take him out. It's possible that the arc is resolved on the Cerealian planet and Freeza never gets involved though.

I thought this was a good chapter. The Heaters might have a longer lifespan the Granolah's race since they barely aged in the 50 or so years since the Saiyans attacked. That could've factored in to how Gas surpassed Granolah because he had more years to exchange. We haven't heard the conditions of the wish so maybe the Dragon had to compress Gas's remaining lifespan to less than three years to surpass Granolah.

[chitarra10]

I imagine the full Bardock fight will be intercut with Gas' final fight.

Can't wait to see Bardock unleash Super Saiyan or something against him.

Honestly, I don't think that's gonna happen. That doesn't really fit the canon version of Bardock now. What Bardock seems to be about right now... and to be perfectly honest, it's what's making me REALLY freaking love him as a character now... is that being physically stronger or having a higher power level than other people is not what's important, but rather what actually matters is a heart and a mind that know what's right, and being brave and courageous enough to stand up and do what's right, even if you're standing alone, even if you're standing against something/someone stronger and more powerful than you, and even if it costs you everything, and that's what makes a person truly strong and powerful. A power-up would entirely undo that really freaking awesome narrative.

And I freaking love that so much because Goku can be proud of his father now. He doesn't have to go on believing that his biological family and ancestors were just a bunch of heartless savages that went around killing innocent people everywhere, and now he can know that his father was wise enough to see the truth through everything his culture and Frieza's iron-fisted rule taught him to believe all his life, and was strong enough to stand up against it, even when he was standing alone, and even at the cost of his life. He didn't seem to care much about the Saiyans because of what Vegeta, Nappa, Raditz, and Frieza had him believing they all were, and he seemed to wanna stay separate from them because he's quite the opposite of them, but now he knows that he's actually just like his father, and it's OK for him to be proud to be a Saiyan... just look at that little smile on his face when Monaito tells him that Bardock eventually won the fight with Gas, that says it all. Not only that, but this gives Vegeta something to look to so that he can know he's not destined to be that heartless, savage killer that he seems to think his ancestry fated him to be, and that a Saiyan's heart truly can change, so it's not only possible, but a good thing for his heart to be changing the way it is, and hopefully once and for all, he'll actually let it change and stop resisting it, thinking that he's being weak for it, when in reality, it's when he's actually at his strongest.

I think what's gonna happen next in that part of the story is that Goku is gonna end up on the back foot in the battle with Gas, and he's gonna be afraid that he can't win, so he's gonna ask Monaito how his father defeated Gas back in the day, then Monaito is gonna finish the story by telling him how Bardock did something clever and surprising in order to overpower Gas and win the fight, and then he's gonna go and do the same thing in order to win his fight with Gas.