Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 78 - Official Discussion Thread

[chitarra10]

We haven't heard the conditions of the wish so maybe the Dragon had to compress Gas's remaining lifespan to less than three years to surpass Granolah.

OOOOOHH!! Good point!! Also, I wonder if maybe Elec might've agreed to that without Gas's consent, and maybe he's gonna have to spring that on him at some point!! Now THAT would be another crazy plot twist!!

[Mr Baggins]

If this thread of him feeling envious of Granola's attention from Elec was given more exploration, it could've felt more cathartic.

If T&T somehow manage to tie all that into Granolah's development, specifically in how he deals with his own revenge, I'd probably be inclined to view this whole 'family dysfunction' throughline more positively (assuming it's even going to be a thing).

This arc's plot developments distinctly feel more deliberate and calculated to me than the rest of Super. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the finer elements track better in hindsight, or during repeat readthroughs.

[LightBing]

Chapter didn't do much for me.

- The wish is both logical and disappointing.
- Couldn't care less about Gas, his gimmick mechanically doesn't seem to do much so it's just a dude randomly summoning weapons for every move.
- Vegeta giving Granolah the senzu was the best part.

The pacing is starting to get annoying. We don't always need to end in a major cliffhanger, fights don't need to have a minimum requirement of four pages, etc...

[Xeogran]

The real twist will be that Gas didn't get stronger at all through the wish, and he's using only his own power here
His body could've only get older because Elec sacrificed his lifespan for a different wish.

[Koitsukai]

I think the twist is going to be what Elecc actually wished for. I doubt he didn't wish for some kind of insurance for himself and just gave Gas the whole meal.

I wouldn't be surprised either if during Gas vs Granny, Toronbo is summoned again.

[TKA]

I just don't appreciate the plotting of the arc thus far.

"Hey, there's this strong guy over here."

"Okay, let's go fight him"

And that's been the arc. Just protracted battle scenes. People were complaining about the manga being monthly and that's why it's slow, but that ain't it. It's feels slow because nothing is happening but punches, kicks and ki blasts. The original manga was decidedly not that. The buildup to the fights were what made the fights good.

[MCDaveG]

I just don't appreciate the plotting of the arc thus far.

"Hey, there's this strong guy over here."

"Okay, let's go fight him"

And that's been the arc. Just protracted battle scenes. People were complaining about the manga being monthly and that's why it's slow, but that ain't it. It's feels slow because nothing is happening but punches, kicks and ki blasts. The original manga was decidedly not that. The buildup to the fights were what made the fights good.

Yes. Reread the manga recently and the charm of the original is definitely missing. Even tho Super manga is made official, it is basically not so different from all those dojinshi back in the days (also drawn presumably by a former dojinshi artist Toyble) and Toriyama's touch is really missing.
Even when he kinda slacked during the second half of Buu arc in manga, by making the drawing as simple as he could, all the frames had impact.
And most of the manga meat was exposition and story beats, with many fights taking just few iconic frames in comparison. The Super manga looks more like a movie storyboard in that matter and I can agree, that the recent arcs are more like fan-manga power fantasy with not much else than fighting going on.
To me, Toriyama is simply irreplaceable. Say what you can, even tho many didn't like the Jaco manga, it was the good ol' Toriyama! It had the iconic humor, story, composition. But I completely understand him being tired from serializations and leaving the manga drawing to someone else.

[capsulecorp]

I just don't appreciate the plotting of the arc thus far.

"Hey, there's this strong guy over here."

"Okay, let's go fight him"

And that's been the arc. Just protracted battle scenes. People were complaining about the manga being monthly and that's why it's slow, but that ain't it. It's feels slow because nothing is happening but punches, kicks and ki blasts. The original manga was decidedly not that. The buildup to the fights were what made the fights good.

Yes. Reread the manga recently and the charm of the original is definitely missing. Even tho Super manga is made official, it is basically not so different from all those dojinshi back in the days (also drawn presumably by a former dojinshi artist Toyble) and Toriyama's touch is really missing.
Even when he kinda slacked during the second half of Buu arc in manga, by making the drawing as simple as he could, all the frames had impact.
And most of the manga meat was exposition and story beats, with many fights taking just few iconic frames in comparison. The Super manga looks more like a movie storyboard in that matter and I can agree, that the recent arcs are more like fan-manga power fantasy with not much else than fighting going on.
To me, Toriyama is simply irreplaceable. Say what you can, even tho many didn't like the Jaco manga, it was the good ol' Toriyama! It had the iconic humor, story, composition. But I completely understand him being tired from serializations and leaving the manga drawing to someone else.

I enjoy the DBS manga, but It's all true. Toriyama is irreplaceable, that's what it means to be a master. Toyotaro can't do it, and Toei sure as hell can't do it. Also, show me somehow who dislikes the Jaco manga and I'll show you a humorless sourpuss.

[Marz]

I just don't appreciate the plotting of the arc thus far.

"Hey, there's this strong guy over here."

"Okay, let's go fight him"

And that's been the arc. Just protracted battle scenes. People were complaining about the manga being monthly and that's why it's slow, but that ain't it. It's feels slow because nothing is happening but punches, kicks and ki blasts. The original manga was decidedly not that. The buildup to the fights were what made the fights good.

The first 7 chapters of the arc were all dedicated to building everything we've been seeing so far on Planet Cereal. Hell, the last chapter was almost entirely flashback

It's disingenuous and misleading to say that nothing else is happening but punches and kicks because it makes it seem like the characters are being thrown into the story for no purpose other than to provide action and fights, which is just flat out wrong.

I enjoy the DBS manga, but It's all true. Toriyama is irreplaceable, that's what it means to be a master. Toyotaro can't do it, and Toei sure as hell can't do it. Also, show me somehow who dislikes the Jaco manga and I'll show you a humorless sourpuss.

I fail to see how not being on Toriyama's level is any kind of demerit...

[capsulecorp]

I fail to see how not being on Toriyama's level is any kind of demerit...

It's not really. Toyo is a talented artist and a pretty good writer. It's only a demerit in the context of attempting to continue in the path of Toriyama because all of our expectations are calibrated based on the original manga.

[kemuri07]

I just don't appreciate the plotting of the arc thus far.

"Hey, there's this strong guy over here."

"Okay, let's go fight him"

And that's been the arc. Just protracted battle scenes. People were complaining about the manga being monthly and that's why it's slow, but that ain't it. It's feels slow because nothing is happening but punches, kicks and ki blasts. The original manga was decidedly not that. The buildup to the fights were what made the fights good.

Yes. Reread the manga recently and the charm of the original is definitely missing. Even tho Super manga is made official, it is basically not so different from all those dojinshi back in the days (also drawn presumably by a former dojinshi artist Toyble) and Toriyama's touch is really missing.
Even when he kinda slacked during the second half of Buu arc in manga, by making the drawing as simple as he could, all the frames had impact.
And most of the manga meat was exposition and story beats, with many fights taking just few iconic frames in comparison. The Super manga looks more like a movie storyboard in that matter and I can agree, that the recent arcs are more like fan-manga power fantasy with not much else than fighting going on.
To me, Toriyama is simply irreplaceable. Say what you can, even tho many didn't like the Jaco manga, it was the good ol' Toriyama! It had the iconic humor, story, composition. But I completely understand him being tired from serializations and leaving the manga drawing to someone else.

I enjoy the DBS manga, but It's all true. Toriyama is irreplaceable, that's what it means to be a master. Toyotaro can't do it, and Toei sure as hell can't do it. Also, show me somehow who dislikes the Jaco manga and I'll show you a humorless sourpuss.

eeeeh...

I think there was once a time in which Toriyama was absolutely firing on all cylinders, and that's largely from Red Ribbon Saga to the Namek Saga. I don't think he's anywhere near there now: either his art or his storytelling. I mean, whatever--cause Toriyama has nothing to prove at this point. But I think the problem is less that Toyotaro can't replace Toriyama, it's that he's completely constrained by the limitations of making a comic based on another artist's work.

[TKA]

The first 7 chapters of the arc were all dedicated to building everything we've been seeing so far on Planet Cereal. Hell, the last chapter was almost entirely flashback

Those chapters amounted to "Hey, dragonballs. Wish. And Frieza needs to be killed, but let's not address that."

Stuff happened, but it's inconsequential stuff. Put last month's chapter at the start of the arc and you immediately have a hook that centers the arc and gives you a reason to give a shit about Granolah and the Heeters. As is, I don't care about anything that's happening right now and find it all dreadfully boring.

This arc only becomes mildly interesting whenever Vegeta says or does something because he's the only one with any connection to the saiyans of old, but it's too bad there's so much fat around that meat.

[Cipher]

I just don't appreciate the plotting of the arc thus far.

"Hey, there's this strong guy over here."

"Okay, let's go fight him"

And that's been the arc. Just protracted battle scenes. People were complaining about the manga being monthly and that's why it's slow, but that ain't it. It's feels slow because nothing is happening but punches, kicks and ki blasts. The original manga was decidedly not that. The buildup to the fights were what made the fights good.

I think this is only particularly true if you ignore that some of the best Vegeta stuff of all of Super (and actually on the level that I might put it in the running for DB writ large, even though there's no touching the original run on the whole) has been happening alongside it, along with plenty of other goofy, quirky bits.

I definitely agree that Super is no DB, and never has been, but that also strikes me as kind of ... not being the criteria for it. It's a sequel obviously helmed by a different author and artist that still more or less manages to feel germane enough to the original in characters and tone for me to enjoy it as "more DB." Your mileage may vary. The original DB is inconceivably good.

[fleahop]

It was a good chapter and I had fun reading it.

I'm excited to see Elec's grand plan and how this is all going to unfold

[TKA]

I think this is only particularly true if you ignore that some of the best Vegeta stuff of all of Super (and actually on the level that I might put it in the running for DB writ large, even though there's no touching the original run on the whole) has been happening alongside it, along with plenty of other goofy, quirky bits.

Vegeta is easily the best-written, and most nuanced character in Dragonball. That is not damned by faint praise, because he outshines most characters in other "acclaimed" series and works. I don't find anything Super has done with him particularly compelling. It's made its house on explaining things readers should've understood about Vegeta's character from the original manga based on what was presented there.

I said it before in the Moro arc, but none of this expands Vegeta's character or development, as much as it expounds his character and development. It explains what people should already know. It's just Vegeta put into different situations to show how he's changed; he isn't actually changing.

I don't find that compelling because Vegeta is the most dynamic character, changing and progressing (even when he regresses) from arc to arc. For this arc in particular, Vegeta's role only became worth talking about 2 chapters ago. With that said, I would never call Super bad for that reason, or declare it a failure for that reason. It obviously isn't trying to change things, so how can you call it a failure for something it isn't even trying to do? That is never my intention.

Toyotaro has shown that for his original arcs, he gets caught up in these long fights that mean nothing with characters whose motivations are either unclear or too simple, and whose backstories he obscures for whatever reason, when those could easily add some pathos to these skirmishes.

[Mr Baggins]

My stance is that Granolah is the one carrying this story, mainly through his interactions with Vegeta, Elec, and Monaito (and Oatmeel to a smaller extent). The story literally revolves around him, and I find him interesting enough as a main arc character. His role has sufficient pathos, I think.

The problem with this structure, if anything, is there's too much buildup and no payoff after... what, a dozen chapters? This is a bad way to present an ongoing plot. The original run was good at being cathartic because it regularly oscillated between the two; here it's always just one unresolved cliffhanger leading to another unresolved cliffhanger without any follow-up for the threads it keeps establishing, so it's stringing the reader along a bunch of fights that mean nothing. Maybe it could have achieved whatever it strived for more effectively had those fights not overstayed their welcome, but they did, and boy does everything feel damn sluggish as a result.

But at least Granolah vs. Vegeta had hooks and beats of significance, unnecessarily sparse as they were. Characters like Gas and Bardock affect the surface level plot, but bring very little to the table when it comes to an underlying central narrative. Unless they actually do something to push Granolah's arc forward next month, my worry with December's chapter is that it's just going to be more of the same.

[TKA]

It also helps that the original run often had multiple storylines running concurrently. Characters were always all over the map doing their own thing, and a background tension while reading is "How will these things intersect?". Toyotaro's two arcs have just been one central plot without any of the abrupt twists or swerves Dragonball is known for; what you see is what you get, and you aren't seeing much.

[TBMx]

- Vegeta giving Granolah the senzu was the best part.
.

It's really obvious Granolah can't win. He's less powerful and less experienced than Gas and Vegeta knows it. I don't get what he expects Granolah to do.

[PurestEvil]

- Vegeta giving Granolah the senzu was the best part.
.

It's really obvious Granolah can't win. He's less powerful and less experienced than Gas and Vegeta knows it. I don't get what he expects Granolah to do.

Obviously Granolah has a minuscule chance of winning, but he is the strongest fighter apart from Gas there. He’s pretty much the only resort they have.

[TBMx]

- Vegeta giving Granolah the senzu was the best part.
.

It's really obvious Granolah can't win. He's less powerful and less experienced than Gas and Vegeta knows it. I don't get what he expects Granolah to do.

Obviously Granolah has a minuscule chance of winning, but he is the strongest fighter apart from Gas there. He’s pretty much the only resort they have.

The whole point of Ultra Ego is to improve in battle from a beating though. Combined with Vegetas saiyan abilities to improve and his claims of greater experience he has some chance as opposed to none. I think Goku would agree given how he recommended Vegeta to do it, not Granolah.