Has Toriyama lost his touch?

[Jord]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. Flanderization of characters, no sense of stakes or progression and weak cop-out endings (Resurrection F) are just a handful of the problems the current product has. I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.
When did he lose his touch? Looking back, the Son Goku returns special was entertaining and felt like DragonBall but Battle of Gods was when quality started to dip. While still an entertaining movie, it felt like a step back.
Resurrection F was....well....a mess and from then on we saw sporadic highlights, mostly infused with nostalgia.

[JulieYBM]

God, I hope not. Losing your ability to feel things would suck!

[Shaddy]

I mean, Toriyama has gotten worse, but all of your reasons are lame and boring.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, Toriyama has gotten worse, but all of your reasons are lame and boring.

Was Toriyama ever actually good? Does one or two cool ideas mean good?

Actually, we do know that his art has gotten worse. He's outright said that he can't draw dynamic panels anymore.

Thread over everyone!

[SupremeKai25]

No.

In fact, in many ways, Super is better and more original than DBZ.

[MasenkoHA]

No.

In fact, in many ways, Super is better and more original than DBZ.

I think the OP is being overdramatic and obviously better or worse is subjective but name one thing about Super that is more original than DBZ.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Toriyama does bring quality, BOG, ROF and DBS:Broly are the higgest grossing Dragon Ball films and Super was a success (even tho some people say otherwise but hey, they have the right to dream).

[SupremeKai25]

No.

In fact, in many ways, Super is better and more original than DBZ.

I think the OP is being overdramatic and obviously better or worse is subjective but name one thing about Super that is more original than DBZ.

Piccolo playing a major role in the new movie and

Spoiler:

and even getting a new form.

Meanwhile DBZ in the Buu arc treated Piccolo like a babysitter and battle spectator.

This is simply the most recent thing that Super did better than DBZ, the treatment of Piccolo...

[Koitsukai]

RoF sucked, sure. But the manga and Broly have been pretty good, and this new movie is yet to be seen, so if he lost it around 2014-15, he found it again by 2017.

[PurestEvil]

I don't think it's fair to cite DBS for his shortcomings since he only partially involved with the story, not even in a "the buck stops with him" way.

I don't think his current artstyle looks bad at all tbh.

[MasenkoHA]

No.

In fact, in many ways, Super is better and more original than DBZ.

I think the OP is being overdramatic and obviously better or worse is subjective but name one thing about Super that is more original than DBZ.

Piccolo playing a major role in the new movie and

Spoiler:

and even getting a new form.

Meanwhile DBZ in the Buu arc treated Piccolo like a babysitter and battle spectator.

This is simply the most recent thing that Super did better than DBZ, the treatment of Piccolo...

That has nothing to do with originality.

And Piccolo had a more prominent role in the Saiyan-Cell arcs than all of Super.

[Grimlock]

After the mess that is DragonBall Super you have to wonder if and when Toriyama lost his touch. (...) When did he lose his touch?

Between 2013 and 2014. Notice that everything went downhill after the release of Movie 14 and the closure of Dragon Ball Online. There should be a villain called "2013/2014" for the characters to deal with (and use the Dragon Balls to resurrect the fallen one!).

I get why TOEI want his name involved with projects, since it makes it more "authentic" but it seems that it isn't synonymous with quality.

People do overestimate the involvement of the original author for some reason. Yet, we continue to get more and more examples of that being indeed not the case. See the latest Terminator movie.

"Authenticity" means little in the grand scheme of things, so I don't know the point of always screaming "hey the original author is here!". If it's doomed to fail, it will fail regardless (in terms of quality, obviously).

[DBZAOTA482]

DBZ was starting to decline after the Freeza arc (oldhead opinion, I know) and it became obvious by the Majin Boo arc. Toriyama lost interest in the franchise a long time but only starting writing stuff for it again because Evolution pissed him off that much.

[capsulecorp]

Currently, he seems to be most focused on the DBS films, and those have been great. I even enjoyed ROF, at least, parts of it. So I'd say he still has his touch. Yes, the DBS anime is gigantic mess where the filler episodes are somehow the highlight, but lets not blame him for that.

Also, it's not exactly new at this point, but the Jaco manga was fantastic.

[VegettoEX]

It's a fair point to say that... well, the entity "Dragon Ball Super" isn't an exclusive Toriyama work. Some of it starts with him, some of it doesn't, and none of it ends with him.

If you want to talk about Toriyama's "touch" and if he still has it, then you really have to start and end with Jaco. That's the sole piece of post-serialization DB media that Toriyama wrote and drew himself.

He wrote movie scripts and did character designs, so Resurrection 'F' and Broly are the next two pieces you'd be able to a little more comprehensively assign as CLOSE to being exclusively Toriyama works... but even then, it's really not. He literally wrote "and then a big fight happens" in his script for Resurrection 'F', leaving it to the Toei staff to work out. You can't pin the choreography on him, for example, in there.

So I think it's kind of a non-starter conversation, because Toriyama's involvement isn't even remotely close to the same today as it was during his actual writing and drawing of the original series. It's a separate conversation to have, but it's not the one you're saying it is.

[MetaMoss]

It's a fair point to say that... well, the entity "Dragon Ball Super" isn't an exclusive Toriyama work. Some of it starts with him, some of it doesn't, and none of it ends with him.

If you want to talk about Toriyama's "touch" and if he still has it, then you really have to start and end with Jaco. That's the sole piece of post-serialization DB media that Toriyama wrote and drew himself.

He wrote movie scripts and did character designs, so Resurrection 'F' and Broly are the next two pieces you'd be able to a little more comprehensively assign as CLOSE to being exclusively Toriyama works... but even then, it's really not. He literally wrote "and then a big fight happens" in his script for Resurrection 'F', leaving it to the Toei staff to work out. You can't pin the choreography on him, for example, in there.

So I think it's kind of a non-starter conversation, because Toriyama's involvement isn't even remotely close to the same today as it was during his actual writing and drawing of the original series. It's a separate conversation to have, but it's not the one you're saying it is.

If you want to be pithy about, perhaps you can say it's not an issue of Toriyama losing his touch, but that he's touching something else

Thinking about Jaco just has me wanting more Toriyama manga one-shots or short series, DB-related or not. I do have a copy of Manga Theater sitting unread on the shelf, so at least I can scratch that itch in some way.

[capsulecorp]

It's a fair point to say that... well, the entity "Dragon Ball Super" isn't an exclusive Toriyama work. Some of it starts with him, some of it doesn't, and none of it ends with him.

If you want to talk about Toriyama's "touch" and if he still has it, then you really have to start and end with Jaco. That's the sole piece of post-serialization DB media that Toriyama wrote and drew himself.

He wrote movie scripts and did character designs, so Resurrection 'F' and Broly are the next two pieces you'd be able to a little more comprehensively assign as CLOSE to being exclusively Toriyama works... but even then, it's really not. He literally wrote "and then a big fight happens" in his script for Resurrection 'F', leaving it to the Toei staff to work out. You can't pin the choreography on him, for example, in there.

So I think it's kind of a non-starter conversation, because Toriyama's involvement isn't even remotely close to the same today as it was during his actual writing and drawing of the original series. It's a separate conversation to have, but it's not the one you're saying it is.

Why not include BOG in this list? I was under the impression he rewrote most if not all of that film too.

[VegettoEX]

Why not include BOG in this list? I was under the impression he rewrote most if not all of that film too.

Sure, he did, but it wasn't built on original concepts from him (I guess you could say the same about Broly), and he wasn't involved from the start. I'm really just being pedantic and overly segmented here, but sure, you're right.

[Skar]

Some fans would say he lost his touch by the Cell and Buu sagas since he admit to getting burned out. Anything coming after that could be good and unlikely to be a major improvement. IMO the same could be said of any artist. I don't think there has been an artist, writer, musician, etc who returned to their work decades later and created something better than when they were in their prime. Maybe there are some exceptions but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[mute_proxy]

Whenever stuff is left for other's ideas and interpretations, things fluctuate between ok and "iffy"; when Toriyama goes and does things himself (draw, design and write), the series shine. In my opinion.