Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 82 - Official Discussion Thread

[Lukmendes]

Execution here is gonna be the key, while Goku doesn't care about his past too much, learning that he was sent to Earth out of love and not out of callousness because he was weak as Vegeta said it was the case in saiyan saga, while I don't see that changing his character, that is something to at least make him stop and think for this scene.

I don't really care about Goku learning about Bardock and Gine in general, but it could be interesting, it could also be really bad, time will tell.

[Tai Lung]

It's always funny to me when people use fanfiction in a detrimental way when talking about Super. In this series you literally have shit like Evil Goku, twisted Kai, red / blue / Pink/ Green haired Super Saiyan forms...all stuff you could find in fanfics and drawings 10 years ago, and some of these things came directly from Toriyama, and you guys just eat it.

Also you have people complaining about how Super plays too much on the safe zone and how stale it is, or how Goku is a static character that never go through anything new. But then when something different happens people still complain the same way

turles exist ... and The negative versions of the characters always existed and the context doesn't make zamsu/goku black feel like that
transformations have always existed while the designs are subjective

One thing has nothing to do with the other ...
if goku already made a mistake giving the seed to cell... he doesn't have to do it again with moro ... continuity is required...
the same with goku relating to characters... and there is a change in his emotions... but it is something that was previously respected goku went from hating saiyans... with raditz... accepting that he is one... with frieza... to want to be their friend or rival .. vegeta, broly, saiyans U6 etc those are changes that felt natural

[Miracles]

Some are taking the "Goku shouldn't care about his family" thing too far. Up until now, that's how things have been, and rightfully so. He only ever met Raditz (who was a bastard), and like the rest of the Saiyans, he assumed his parents were probably just as awful. He had every reason to assume they tossed them aside as a weakling, and he had plenty of loved ones on Earth.

But if he were to find out that they weren't as bad as other Saiyans, and in fact they took a big risk to save him out of love - especially via a MEMORY HE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED...how do you expect him to react? "Hmph...I don't give a damn", or run into the other room blocking his ears? Goku's a good person who can be moved by the kindness in others. He hasn't cared about his heritage (for a PORTION of the series) and hasn't sought out information about his parents (he didn't even bother to ask Vegeta in all of the years they've trained together), but do you honestly expect him to be indifferent when this information is presented to him? If he heard the tale of Bardock from the original Toei special he wouldn't have the same reaction. I doubt this will play in a sentimental way inappropriate to Dragon Ball.

Spot on. Goku remembering Bardock showed sympathy toward him as a baby [Also the reason he survived] should give him a surprising interest into his father at the least.

It won't turn Goku into an emotionally attachment Ancestrytrree.com surfing nerd either. As you reasonably pointed out is against DB standards.

[Tai Lung]

so you should follow your own advice and not make things up or at least revise the manga you are defending based on nothing

the same manga... this is surprise ... toyotaro it clearly reflects

Spoiler:

false
the other is clear that there is an emotional impact ... which is reflected in the teary eyes and the image of their parents in them that no tears come out is irrelevant because it is a memory ... and he is no longer a child

The expression is surprised, the same as the picture you posted. The eyes are not teary (teary eyes have actual tears underneath them). They are with extra detail, because the page is focusing on them. They're eyes, flat black balls wouldn't have the effect zoomed in without a shine.

Also, if you're gonna pull that 'revision' card, do it yourself, it's a manga, don't level it with anime art methods. The manga never 'shined' the eyes.

there is a "huge" difference... between the image that goku remembers his training and that of his parents... it's just surprise
they are not the same because the drawing tries to be emotional... "goku with shining eyes while he remembers his parents in the most emotional scene of the broly movie"
it's quite clear


if they showed it

[Tai Lung]

The distinctions in the quality/execution of these two plot points are irrelevant. Just because you don't like a certain plot point, it doesn't mean it "isn't dragon ball". That phrase is a shitty pejorative used to discredit any sort of innovation made by modern DB regardless of quality.

It is not Dragon Ball because DB has never wanted to manipulate the viewer based on cheap sentimentality using popular characters so brazenly ...
this is almost naruto meeting minato

1) Right, because referring to older characters can never be of any substantial narrative benefit, always assume the worst from spoiled panels.
2) Say, wasn't there a scene in the Buu arc that explicitly showed characters from early DB give energy to Goku, even though there technically did not serve a pragmatic narrative purpose other than, dare I call it such, sentimentality?
3) You are basing this viewpoint off a dumbass assumption that Goku is going to cry
4) Who are you to determine such arbitrary boundaries and declare them as absolute fact?

1.- with bardock at this point it feels like fanservice... in the broly movie it seems acceptable to me...
2.-bad example... because at the end of the day goku is not remembering them... and at least goku knew them more than the overexploited bardock
3.- Lol it is not an assumption the scene is .. to reflect the emotional impact ... because goku remembers the emotions he had when he was sent to earth and he also cried
4.- I have simply read the manga ... and therefore I can understand the intentions that the author wants to reflect ...
it's not that it's hard either..."goku literally has his parents in his eyes" as they shine exactamente in the scene where he said goodbye to them...

[mute_proxy]

there is a "huge" difference... between the image that goku remembers his training and that of his parents... it's just surprise
they are not the same because the drawing tries to be emotional... "goku with shining eyes while he remembers his parents in the most emotional scene of the broly movie"
it's quite clear

Spoiler:

if they showed it

Spoiler:

Those are not the same eyes, and yet again, teary eyes have tears. And that Broly movie shot from the manga (DB Minus), he looks concerned, not teary.

[kemuri07]

Execution here is gonna be the key, while Goku doesn't care about his past too much, learning that he was sent to Earth out of love and not out of callousness because he was weak as Vegeta said it was the case in saiyan saga, while I don't see that changing his character, that is something to at least make him stop and think for this scene.

I don't really care about Goku learning about Bardock and Gine in general, but it could be interesting, it could also be really bad, time will tell.

You're right on about execution. The problem is is that I'm pretty sure this arc has burned up a lot of the good will it garnered when it first started. If they actually do something interesting with Goku remembering his father's face, I'm here for it!

I'm just not all that convinced it will.


In regards to Bardock. I don't take an issue with Bardock because I don't like him (I actually like his character a great deal), I take issue with Bardock because how he is being used feels like bad writing. And if we are indeed headed to "well, Bardock totes did become a supersaiyan", that is some fanfic level of trash.

Also, Broly gets away with it cause its a 90 min film, and not the emotional crutch of a year long story arc.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well, this Chapter sounds like a lot of fun from the plot summary, with lots of creative-sounding elements to it - I hope the reading experience is as good.

I guess one of the surprises in terms of plotting (apart from the main "surprise" being talked about) is that there's time for a proper lull in the action - I'd assumed (I think like most readers) that we'd simply have a straightforward escalation from here up till the end.

Regarding the particular main revelation of the Chapter - I like the way it frames Goku in the context of the arc, and relative to Granolah and Vegeta. We saw one aspect of being a survivor in Granolah and Vegeta's interactions - the aspect of destruction and loss as they fight in and destroy the ruins of Cereal, and begin to replay the sort of destruction that left them practically the sole representatives of their respective peoples (technically not true in Vegeta's case, but he speaks as though it is, particularly in Chapter 76). Now we see Goku specifically as a survivor, and he likewise has a connection on that level to Granolah, but rather as someone who is a survivor specifically because he was protected by someone (and that someone being Bardock for both of them, of course) - this seems like a neat joining of the trio.

It'll be interesting to see what, if any, impact this will fundamentally have on Goku and what he does next, though. It would be neat if it turned out that the story is in some way playing out Beerus's original statement that before Creation, comes Destruction.

[chitarra10]

It's good to see Gas respect Elec no matter what.
Too bad for him that it's not mutual and Elec is 100% using him for his own goals.

I'm sure this is heading to the direction where Gas will start considering Goku a friend, probably by the last minutes of his life.

I kinda don't think Gas is gonna die... because he's turning out to be a LOT like Vegeta was when Frieza was controlling, manipulating, and gaslighting him into thinking and believing the way he did, and that Elec is doing the same to him as Frieza did to Vegeta... and I'm kinda thinking the only one who's gonna die here is Elec. I'm kinda thinking that before this is over, Elec is gonna give himself away, that Gas is gonna realize that Elec has only seen him as a means to an end this whole time, and that this fight between him and Goku is gonna end in another draw. I kinda think Goku wants to do with him what he did with Broly because he definitely sees what Elec is doing to him, but whether or not Gas will accept that is still hard to say at this point.

[dva_raza]

i'm saying goku remembering and getting sentimental for people he doesn't know doesn't feel like dragon ball or anything goku would do

I am basing myself on the fact that goku should not feel anything for people he only saw when he was 3 years old

But he’s NOT getting "sentimental" or randomly “remembering”.
A memory SPARKED

And he does know them. He did have a connection. They are his parents.
It was just a repressed memory, and it’s getting triggered now. That’s all.
Things like this happen.

People hold memories from when they were in their crib, I have one.
And especially particular moments that were impactful remain, even if repressed. Goku being sent away quialifies as an impactful enough moment for him, even if he was that young.

Memories can be triggered through any sense. Sometimes a random smell passes you by and you get the full image of something that happened many years ago that was completely stored in your mind, and just how the smell related to that is what opens up that memory immediately.

And what happened now, is that he heard his fathers voice recorded a fuckin 40 something years ago and this sparked a memory he always had.
I got literal goosebumps from just reading that summary.

I totally understand some people find it “fanfictiony” or corny, but it’s not UNREALISTIC in the least.
And it’s different.
And it’s bold to step outside from what’s expected.

it was the same goku who remenber the death of his grandfather for his fault and simply continued with the battle

lol.. I'm not sure what you mean “simply continued with the battle”. He was being chased, beaten and crushed by a giant ape.

[dva_raza]

I couldn't care less about Bardock in any of his incarnations but what I'm most curious about is the follow up, that's really where the money is. Goku officially learns about his parents, okay now what? They've been dead for decades and to say he's leagues above them in the strength department would be an understatement, so they have nothing to teach him sooooooooo??? Yay Bardock?! Yay SS Bardock?! Do we really need that?

Why would you want to be so defensive in experiencing a story? I mean you’re not the one working on it (I assume), you’re a spectator. You can just let it happen. I think that makes things more enjoyable than to have distrust about the how is gonna work out beforehand.

If what ends up happening with this, is something to do with this memory opening up a new aspect or a new perception about himself, even if it’s just a little thing, that’s again, a totally realistic thing to happen. And if it leads to literally nothing, I don’t see what’s wrong with that either at this point in the story. I mean.. what would you rather write for Goku as a character at this point, that would be different from any of the things that were touched already? If this is an aspect about Goku that was never explored before then why not do just that?

I just think it’s strange so many people complain about Goku being empty in Super. But when an attempt is made to explore his character, you get cynical about it and shut down the idea.
 

[Xeogran]

I kinda don't think Gas is gonna die...

What you say is true, but remember he is on a limited life span. We don't know how long though, but it could even conveniently happen the moment he learns the truth about Elec.

I feel like this month's chapter is here to make Gas feel more relatable to the readers.

[PurestEvil]

It is not Dragon Ball because DB has never wanted to manipulate the viewer based on cheap sentimentality using popular characters so brazenly ...
this is almost naruto meeting minato

1) Right, because referring to older characters can never be of any substantial narrative benefit, always assume the worst from spoiled panels.
2) Say, wasn't there a scene in the Buu arc that explicitly showed characters from early DB give energy to Goku, even though there technically did not serve a pragmatic narrative purpose other than, dare I call it such, sentimentality?
3) You are basing this viewpoint off a dumbass assumption that Goku is going to cry
4) Who are you to determine such arbitrary boundaries and declare them as absolute fact?

1.- with bardock at this point it feels like fanservice... in the broly movie it seems acceptable to me...
2.-bad example... because at the end of the day goku is not remembering them... and at least goku knew them more than the overexploited bardock
3.- Lol it is not an assumption the scene is .. to reflect the emotional impact ... because goku remembers the emotions he had when he was sent to earth and he also cried
4.- I have simply read the manga ... and therefore I can understand the intentions that the author wants to reflect ...
it's not that it's hard either..."goku literally has his parents in his eyes" as they shine exactamente in the scene where he said goodbye to them...

1 - Goku remembering bardock is going to actually have a function in the plot though. It isn't just an accessorial bit of fan-serivce
2 - It was a sentimental moment. Splitting hairs does not nullify this.
3 - Considering how poorly you've been trying to "prove" Goku is going to cry so far, yeah I think I have my reasons to disagree with it
4 - You are using qualitative (even opinionated) elements by themselves to assert your viewpoint as an absolute truth. Everything you've been arguing with me revolves around "no true scotsman".

[Marz]

turles exist ... and The negative versions of the characters always existed and the context doesn't make zamsu/goku black feel like that
transformations have always existed while the designs are subjective

One thing has nothing to do with the other ...
if goku already made a mistake giving the seed to cell... he doesn't have to do it again with moro ... continuity is required...
the same with goku relating to characters... and there is a change in his emotions... but it is something that was previously respected goku went from hating saiyans... with raditz... accepting that he is one... with frieza... to want to be their friend or rival .. vegeta, broly, saiyans U6 etc those are changes that felt natural

You aren't making sense, and your double standards here is clear.

Turles is not canon. The DBZ movies are full of things that people would call fanfic-ish because TOEI was responsible for most of it. But it turns out that Toriyama just did the same things by creating Black, Zamasu, rebooting non canon characters, reviving old characters for the sake of nostalgia...all things that you could say that doesn't feel like Dragon but none did it because it was made by the author. I'm not criticizing him btw, just stating that calling something "fanfic" in Super seems hypocritical if you enjoyed all these past concepts that I mentioned

[chitarra10]

I kinda don't think Gas is gonna die...

What you say is true, but remember he is on a limited life span. We don't know how long though, but it could even conveniently happen the moment he learns the truth about Elec.

I feel like this month's chapter is here to make Gas feel more relatable to the readers.

What I mean is that I don't think anyone in the story right now is gonna kill him. Whether Elec wished away his life still remains to be seen, but I think the only death that will happen in the context of this story will be Elec, and it's gonna be Granolah who kills him. It's becoming more and more clear that Gas is also a life-long victim of Elec's bullshit, just like Vegeta was a life-long victim of Frieza's bullshit until he was 29 years old, and I think Goku has that figured out at this point. And because of the way Goku figured that out about Broly and then decided he wanted to turn Broly to "the side of the angels" instead of kill him, this whole thing makes me kinda think he's gonna start doing the same with Gas, and that he's gonna start telling Gas to stop letting Elec control him. That would be perfectly fitting of Goku's character.

[goku the krump dancer]

I couldn't care less about Bardock in any of his incarnations but what I'm most curious about is the follow up, that's really where the money is. Goku officially learns about his parents, okay now what? They've been dead for decades and to say he's leagues above them in the strength department would be an understatement, so they have nothing to teach him sooooooooo??? Yay Bardock?! Yay SS Bardock?! Do we really need that?

Why would you want to be so defensive in experiencing a story? I mean you’re not the one working on it (I assume), you’re a spectator. You can just let it happen. I think that makes things more enjoyable than to have distrust about the how is gonna work out beforehand.

If what ends up happening with this, is something to do with this memory opening up a new aspect or a new perception about himself, even if it’s just a little thing, that’s again, a totally realistic thing to happen. And if it leads to literally nothing, I don’t see what’s wrong with that either at this point in the story. I mean.. what would you rather write for Goku as a character at this point, that would be different from any of the things that were touched already? If this is an aspect about Goku that was never explored before then why not do just that?

I just think it’s strange so many people complain about Goku being empty in Super. But when an attempt is made to explore his character, you get cynical about it and shut down the idea.
 

Well I've never complained about Goku's personality in Super nor am I being defensive, I wasn't defending anything in that post, it was more so me inquiring about how Goku learning about his parents could affect him and I honestly couldn't think of anything that makes shoving Bardock down our throats worth while. I mean if it ultimately means nothing then why go this route in the first place? If you're gonna introduce an idea that's gonna be a major plot point it should at least have a lasting impact but again Bardock and Gine have nothing to offer Goku... Atleast until the chapter drops. Maybe Gas has a weakness that requires exploiting for him to be properly defeated.

[Tai Lung]

there is a "huge" difference... between the image that goku remembers his training and that of his parents... it's just surprise
they are not the same because the drawing tries to be emotional... "goku with shining eyes while he remembers his parents in the most emotional scene of the broly movie"
it's quite clear

Spoiler:

if they showed it

Spoiler:

Those are not the same eyes, and yet again, teary eyes have tears. And that Broly movie shot from the manga (DB Minus), he looks concerned, not teary.

they are the same... I repeat... goku is remembering his parents in the most dramatic scene according to the directors of the movie

Now the movie is not canon according to you or what? sorry but the author wrote the script

i'm saying goku remembering and getting sentimental for people he doesn't know doesn't feel like dragon ball or anything goku would do

I am basing myself on the fact that goku should not feel anything for people he only saw when he was 3 years old

But he’s NOT getting "sentimental" or randomly “remembering”.
A memory SPARKED

And he does know them. He did have a connection. They are his parents.
It was just a repressed memory, and it’s getting triggered now. That’s all.
Things like this happen.

People hold memories from when they were in their crib, I have one.
And especially particular moments that were impactful remain, even if repressed. Goku being sent away quialifies as an impactful enough moment for him, even if he was that young.

Memories can be triggered through any sense. Sometimes a random smell passes you by and you get the full image of something that happened many years ago that was completely stored in your mind, and just how the smell related to that is what opens up that memory immediately.

And what happened now, is that he heard his fathers voice recorded a fuckin 40 something years ago and this sparked a memory he always had.
I got literal goosebumps from just reading that summary.

I totally understand some people find it “fanfictiony” or corny, but it’s not UNREALISTIC in the least.
And it’s different.
And it’s bold to step outside from what’s expected.

it was the same goku who remenber the death of his grandfather for his fault and simply continued with the battle

lol.. I'm not sure what you mean “simply continued with the battle”. He was being chased, beaten and crushed by a giant ape.

What memories will him have if he were most of the time in a breathing capsule according to the same gine
Goku doesn't react like that because of his grandfather's death because of him but he gets sentimental for simple strangers

[Tai Lung]

1) Right, because referring to older characters can never be of any substantial narrative benefit, always assume the worst from spoiled panels.
2) Say, wasn't there a scene in the Buu arc that explicitly showed characters from early DB give energy to Goku, even though there technically did not serve a pragmatic narrative purpose other than, dare I call it such, sentimentality?
3) You are basing this viewpoint off a dumbass assumption that Goku is going to cry
4) Who are you to determine such arbitrary boundaries and declare them as absolute fact?

1.- with bardock at this point it feels like fanservice... in the broly movie it seems acceptable to me...
2.-bad example... because at the end of the day goku is not remembering them... and at least goku knew them more than the overexploited bardock
3.- Lol it is not an assumption the scene is .. to reflect the emotional impact ... because goku remembers the emotions he had when he was sent to earth and he also cried
4.- I have simply read the manga ... and therefore I can understand the intentions that the author wants to reflect ...
it's not that it's hard either..."goku literally has his parents in his eyes" as they shine exactamente in the scene where he said goodbye to them...

1 - Goku remembering bardock is going to actually have a function in the plot though. It isn't just an accessorial bit of fan-serivce
2 - It was a sentimental moment. Splitting hairs does not nullify this.
3 - Considering how poorly you've been trying to "prove" Goku is going to cry so far, yeah I think I have my reasons to disagree with it
4 - You are using qualitative (even opinionated) elements by themselves to assert your viewpoint as an absolute truth. Everything you've been arguing with me revolves around "no true scotsman".

1.- What else is bardock going to contribute being years already dead... one thing is to know the origins of goku another... to continue using his character in an absurd way now... because until now the guy looks stronger than he should have been a low class warrior...
2.- it's irrelevant.. because i'm not criticizing the dramatic scenes... i'm criticizing the scene where goku gets sentimental about characters he doesn't know and never did... which makes it a manipulative and cheap scene none of the ones you mention it resembles in the slightest
3.-4
That you don't want to see it doesn't matter to me because again you're not debating anything...
The visual language... the image of his parents in his eyes while his eyes sparkle... if they approach it this way it is because they want to reflect... an emotional impact especially when goku cried when he went to earth... yes they did not want to do that they would have approached it in another way .... which they did when goku remembered roshi's training or ...


None is an opinion... yours, on the other hand, is... I'm basing myself on facts simply by showing you the manga and how each scene conveys a different intention... you, on the other hand, are not

[Tai Lung]

turles exist ... and The negative versions of the characters always existed and the context doesn't make zamsu/goku black feel like that
transformations have always existed while the designs are subjective

One thing has nothing to do with the other ...
if goku already made a mistake giving the seed to cell... he doesn't have to do it again with moro ... continuity is required...
the same with goku relating to characters... and there is a change in his emotions... but it is something that was previously respected goku went from hating saiyans... with raditz... accepting that he is one... with frieza... to want to be their friend or rival .. vegeta, broly, saiyans U6 etc those are changes that felt natural

You aren't making sense, and your double standards here is clear.

Turles is not canon. The DBZ movies are full of things that people would call fanfic-ish because TOEI was responsible for most of it. But it turns out that Toriyama just did the same things by creating Black, Zamasu, rebooting non canon characters, reviving old characters for the sake of nostalgia...all things that you could say that doesn't feel like Dragon but none did it because it was made by the author. I'm not criticizing him btw, just stating that calling something "fanfic" in Super seems hypocritical if you enjoyed all these past concepts that I mentioned

lol If you're calling an idea fanfic.. here the hypocrite is you because again the fanfics didn't invent that...
Super sentai


why turles would be fanfic... just because it's not canon doesn't mean it's not official material....
Anyway, I would recommend you to read Superior Spiderman, it has the same villain plot in the hero's body.. and nobody ever called it Evil Spiderman or fanfic, in fact, it's quite good.

One thing has nothing to do with the other... because I don't know what a cheesy scene has to do with the idea of an evil copy

[PurestEvil]

None is an opinion... yours, on the other hand, is... I'm basing myself on facts simply by showing you the manga and how each scene conveys a different intention... you, on the other hand, are not

The "facts" do not support your bad logic, I'm afraid. I am not even debating on whether or not the Bardock scene is good or bad (I always keep neutral opinions before chapter releases); rather, I am countering this appeal to purity you have been trying to assert (which is a LOGICAL FALLACY) as a part of your criticism.