Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Physique in DB mostly doesn't mean anything though, it's a running gag that strong looking characters can be taken down really fast, or that between the strong looking character and the weak looking one, the strong looking character is far weaker.

That's the thing though. Nappa doesn't just look tough, Goku directly confirms it so it's not a gag.

I re-read the fight and Nappa trades blows with Goku for an impressive 1 panel (So much wow) in total. Reducing their whole fight to that panel is honestly silly. I guess SS2 Future Trunks is on par with SSR Black for managing to land a single kick in their fight or base/SS Goku was on par with SSG Vegeta because he kept up for a few seconds against Broly.

Silly.

[Lukmendes]

That's the thing though. Nappa doesn't just look tough, Goku directly confirms it so it's not a gag.

I re-read the fight and Nappa trades blows with Goku for an impressive 1 panel (So much wow) in total. Reducing their whole fight to that panel is honestly silly. I guess SS2 Future Trunks is on par with SSR Black for managing to land a single kick in their fight or base/SS Goku was on par with SSG Vegeta because he kept up for a few seconds against Broly.

Silly.

Goku's definitely the stronger one between both, but having twice as much power as someone in DB is a huge deal, it wouldn't explain why Goku and Vegeta said that the fight was gonna take forever, why Goku would need to counter Nappa's strongest attack with a kamehameha (Even saying it made him sweat in a non cocky tone), instead of just tanking it or blocking, and need kaioken to reach Nappa once he decided to attack Gohan and Krillin... In the same story arc, Goku used Kaiokenx2 against Vegeta, which would put his power level around 16000 in comparison with Vegeta's 18000, and it was made clear right away that Goku was outmatched and would have to resort to a higher kaioken to even stand a chance, and the difference here is not as big as a supposedly 4000 Nappa vs Goku's over 8000, not to mention, how weird it is that Nappa, and only Nappa, would be an exception in a world like DB where muscles are meaningless.

Again, Goku is definitely the stronger one and Nappa was a punching bag in the fight, even after calming down, Goku still outmatched him (Though not as badly as before), it's just that a difference of having twice the power level, it's absurd in DB, and Goku was pointing out that the fight's gonna last forever, which just seems weird for it to be the case when, again, such a power difference is a huge deal.

As for the other examples you mentioned, SS2 Trunks vs Rosé Black was really poorly written, considering base form Black outmatched him more, but worse of all, he also kept up with Future Zamasu, and later episodes have Future Zamasu being around Blue Goku's level quite consistently, so SS2 Trunks in that episode was looking way too strong, and base/SS Goku vs Broly, it was really weird, but at no point does Goku get a real advantage against Broly until he goes SSG, even clearly starts to lose in base form and SS and he transforms quickly afterwards both times, that fight in those forms still have their issues though, but I doubt Toriyama is as strict about power levels by that point.

[The Monkey King]

That's the thing though. Nappa doesn't just look tough, Goku directly confirms it so it's not a gag.

I re-read the fight and Nappa trades blows with Goku for an impressive 1 panel (So much wow) in total. Reducing their whole fight to that panel is honestly silly.

Strange, you accuse others of "reducing their whole fight" and yet you...

• Ignore Nappa's mouth beam clashing equally with Goku's Kamehameha.

• Ignore that both Vegeta and Goku comment that Goku (w/o kaioken) vs Nappa would result in a long drawn out fight.

Show me another instance from the original manga where someone fought as equals with an opponent that was twice as strong as them for any length of time, let alone having a long, drawn out fight with them.

Yeah Goku called Nappa tough... because their power levels must be close... your "PHySiQUe" argument is just utterly baseless honestly, if you still wish to stand by it, you surely have answers to these questions:

• Why didn't Recoome's "StR0nG PhySIqUE" stop him from getting one shotted by Goku?

• Does the "StR0nG PhySIqUE" of Freeza's second form make him more tough than his final form?

• Why didn't Cell's bulked up "StR0nG PhySIqUE" form do nothing for his durability when Gohan was kicking his ass?

Oh wow, it's almost like you're completely wrong, how curious...

I guess SS2 Future Trunks is on par with SSR Black for managing to land a single kick in their fight or base/SS Goku was on par with SSG Vegeta because he kept up for a few seconds against Broly.

Comparing the original manga to the DBS anime??

Holy shit, you really are reaching at straws here, I take it you couldn't find any other scenes from the manga back you up?

It's pretty common consensus that the DBS anime has dogshit power scaling, due to so many writers and directors working on it and Toriyama himself having a 20 year break from Dragon Ball. It's an entirely different product from the original manga, which was much more consistent when it came to power gaps within fights.

Also You do know the DBS anime is worked on by Toei Animation right?? The same Toei that loves injecting scenes of base Saiyans fighting opponents that would one shot them in the original manga to build up hype for transformations, along with other blatant nonsense. Such as:

• Base Goku, Vegeta and Trunks vs Android 13, 14 and 15

• Base Gohan vs SSJ Broly

• Base Gohan vs Dabura

Silly.

Yes, you ignoring context clues from the original source material is very silly congrats.

Also since you're such a big fan of guide book power levels, how do you explain Piccolo (3500) fairing much worse against Nappa (4000) than when Nappa fought Goku (8000)?

[Lukmendes]

Also You do know the DBS anime is worked on by Toei Animation right?? The same Toei that loves injecting scenes of base Saiyans fighting opponents that would one shot them in the original manga to build up hype for transformations, along with other blatant nonsense. Such as:

Base Goku, Vegeta and Trunks vs Android 13, 14 and 15
Base Gohan vs SSJ Broly
Base Gohan vs Dabura

Don't forget one of the silliest examples of all, Goku and Vegeta's filler adventures inside of Boo, where they fight fake versions of Gohan and Gotenks, Goku says the fake Gohan is as strong as the real deal, and right after, Goku only uses, SS1? Him and Vegeta last way longer than they should too, Vegeta even gets a few licks against SS3 Gotenks in base form, though at least it's made clear they're outmatched by the end, still though...

Also since you're such a big fan of guide book power levels, how do you explain Piccolo (3500) fairing much worse against Nappa (4000) than when Nappa fought Goku (8000)?

What the hell? The guide books really say that? Because even in comparison with Nappa, I don't think that works, Gohan using his Masenko and getting a power level of 2800 is something Vegeta is shocked at (Though he puts focus on how the powers flunctuate with Earthlings), and nowhere else in the fight does he talk like anyone else could be that strong, and he had the scouter back on by that point, Piccolo would definitely have caught attention if he was that strong, and it'd be even more noticeable if he's only 500 points below Nappa.

Also, a detail I noticed the other day but forgot to mention in previous posts, right after Vegeta says Goku's power is over 8000, Nappa says this:



(Chapter 224)

I think this line is an indication that Nappa's power level is around 8000, and he doesn't believe Goku is strong enough to match his own power.

I checked out a subbed version (episode 28) too, and he says "There's no way you can stand up to Nappa-Sama!" there, which's, more or less the same thing.

[ZombieVito]

Goku's definitely the stronger one between both, but having twice as much power as someone in DB is a huge deal, it wouldn't explain why Goku and Vegeta said that the fight was gonna take forever, why Goku would need to counter Nappa's strongest attack with a kamehameha (Even saying it made him sweat in a non cocky tone), instead of just tanking it or blocking, and need kaioken to reach Nappa once he decided to attack Gohan and Krillin... In the same story arc, Goku used Kaiokenx2 against Vegeta, which would put his power level around 16000 in comparison with Vegeta's 18000, and it was made clear right away that Goku was outmatched and would have to resort to a higher kaioken to even stand a chance, and the difference here is not as big as a supposedly 4000 Nappa vs Goku's over 8000, not to mention, how weird it is that Nappa, and only Nappa, would be an exception in a world like DB where muscles are meaningless.

Again, Goku is definitely the stronger one and Nappa was a punching bag in the fight, even after calming down, Goku still outmatched him (Though not as badly as before), it's just that a difference of having twice the power level, it's absurd in DB, and Goku was pointing out that the fight's gonna last forever, which just seems weird for it to be the case when, again, such a power difference is a huge deal.

As for the other examples you mentioned, SS2 Trunks vs Rosé Black was really poorly written, considering base form Black outmatched him more, but worse of all, he also kept up with Future Zamasu, and later episodes have Future Zamasu being around Blue Goku's level quite consistently, so SS2 Trunks in that episode was looking way too strong, and base/SS Goku vs Broly, it was really weird, but at no point does Goku get a real advantage against Broly until he goes SSG, even clearly starts to lose in base form and SS and he transforms quickly afterwards both times, that fight in those forms still have their issues though, but I doubt Toriyama is as strict about power levels by that point.

Well, the fight was going to take forever because Nappa is a tank.

It is shown that Goku was caught off guard and had to quickly fire a blast to stop Nappa's. Even Vegeta was surprised Goku had time to counterattack. With using Kaioken, it is explained Goku didn't have time to catch up with Nappa since well, he got a head start so Goku had no choice but to use Kaioken to save Gohan and Krillin.

At the end of the day people are going to believe what they want but the manga is clear. Goku never says Nappa got stronger, mentions his toughness especially and later on the Namek arc it is confirmed that neither Vegeta or Nappa can control their Ki so they never were suppressed on Earth.

[Sora Saiyan]

Goku's definitely the stronger one between both, but having twice as much power as someone in DB is a huge deal, it wouldn't explain why Goku and Vegeta said that the fight was gonna take forever, why Goku would need to counter Nappa's strongest attack with a kamehameha (Even saying it made him sweat in a non cocky tone), instead of just tanking it or blocking, and need kaioken to reach Nappa once he decided to attack Gohan and Krillin... In the same story arc, Goku used Kaiokenx2 against Vegeta, which would put his power level around 16000 in comparison with Vegeta's 18000, and it was made clear right away that Goku was outmatched and would have to resort to a higher kaioken to even stand a chance, and the difference here is not as big as a supposedly 4000 Nappa vs Goku's over 8000, not to mention, how weird it is that Nappa, and only Nappa, would be an exception in a world like DB where muscles are meaningless.

Again, Goku is definitely the stronger one and Nappa was a punching bag in the fight, even after calming down, Goku still outmatched him (Though not as badly as before), it's just that a difference of having twice the power level, it's absurd in DB, and Goku was pointing out that the fight's gonna last forever, which just seems weird for it to be the case when, again, such a power difference is a huge deal.

As for the other examples you mentioned, SS2 Trunks vs Rosé Black was really poorly written, considering base form Black outmatched him more, but worse of all, he also kept up with Future Zamasu, and later episodes have Future Zamasu being around Blue Goku's level quite consistently, so SS2 Trunks in that episode was looking way too strong, and base/SS Goku vs Broly, it was really weird, but at no point does Goku get a real advantage against Broly until he goes SSG, even clearly starts to lose in base form and SS and he transforms quickly afterwards both times, that fight in those forms still have their issues though, but I doubt Toriyama is as strict about power levels by that point.

Well, the fight was going to take forever because Nappa is a tank.

It is shown that Goku was caught off guard and had to quickly fire a blast to stop Nappa's. Even Vegeta was surprised Goku had time to counterattack. With using Kaioken, it is explained Goku didn't have time to catch up with Nappa since well, he got a head start so Goku had no choice but to use Kaioken to save Gohan and Krillin.

At the end of the day people are going to believe what they want but the manga is clear. Goku never says Nappa got stronger, mentions his toughness especially and later on the Namek arc it is confirmed that neither Vegeta or Nappa can control their Ki so they never were suppressed on Earth.

I mentioned in my previous post that there are a few awkward showings which make it hard to have such a large gap. Gokus full power was 2x stronger than Reoomes, and after he dealt with Recoome he plays with two guys with "the same Ki as level as recoome." Thats the equivalent of Saiyan arc Goku fighting two Nappas and dominating without any effort. Nappa and Goku actually do have a brief skirmish where they trade blows, and both blocking and dodging the other, where as with the Ginyus he dodges attacks from the combined onslaught of Burta and Jeice with a super chilled expression and finished off Burter instantly once he decided to retaliate. Also Goku wasn't even using the full powr against these, as in his fight with Ginyu where he actually starts putting forth effort (which he didnt have to do with the force) Ginyu states that he knows that Goku is concealing his true strength still, and his real reading is around 85k, we know his actual true strength to be 90k without Kk, so Ginyu was on the money with his prediction. So Goku whilst concealing his true strength made easy work of the Ginyu force, meaning his power was actually less than 2x above theirs. This doesn't bode well for Nappa being only 4k.
Also Piccolo vs third form Freeza is an example of a character that should be less than twice as strong as the other yet we see absolute domination. It's like an adult fighting a toddler when the gap is closing in on 2x. I say third form Freeza should still be less than 2x above Piccolo since Vegeta was confident in defeating Freezas final form after witnessing his third form, and he was still plenty below Goku who was at 3 mil. Freezas second form was initially above 1 million, and he powered up twice after, both of which were notable by the cast, and Piccolo was still apparently above even that. So it's hard to have much over 2 million in third form.

Also Nappa and Vegeta not knowing how to control theire Ki in the saiyan arc (this has a couple of inconstencies) isnt important since Toriyama has explained how Ki works in the SEG, and its a combination of Genki (energy), Yuki (courage), and Shoki (right mindedness). As Vegeta exclaims, Nappa needed to cool his head to win, and once he does the fight evens out. Essentially his ki control was out of whack because of his mind set. This actually fits very well with what Toriyama said, and it also allows the Nappa scene to make logical sense when compared to other showings in the manga.

[Hugo Boss]

Also Nappa and Vegeta not knowing how to control their Ki in the saiyan arc (this has a couple of inconstencies) isn’t important since Toriyama has explained how Ki works in the SEG, and its a combination of Genki (energy), Yuki (courage), and Shoki (right mindedness).

As Vegeta exclaims, Nappa needed to cool his head to win, and once he does the fight evens out. Essentially his ki control was out of whack because of his mind set. This actually fits very well with what Toriyama said, and it also allows the Nappa scene to make logical sense when compared to other showings in the manga.

I agree with this. Just because Nappa and Vegeta can’t suppress their battle powers like Krillin and company can do, it doesn’t mean they are sporting their full power all the time. Whenever they are surrounded by aura, we can note an upgrade in performance. So, in any case, their battle power numbers (4,000 and 18,000) don’t represent everything they can do.

Curiously, this might be a key factor to Bardock defeating Gas, drawing out power from these other sources (courage and right mindedness). We see that at a point of their fight he is surrounded by aura.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What the hell? The guide books really say that? Because even in comparison with Nappa, I don't think that works, Gohan using his Masenko and getting a power level of 2800 is something Vegeta is shocked at (Though he puts focus on how the powers flunctuate with Earthlings), and nowhere else in the fight does he talk like anyone else could be that strong, and he had the scouter back on by that point, Piccolo would definitely have caught attention if he was that strong, and it'd be even more noticeable if he's only 500 points below Nappa.

Also, a detail I noticed the other day but forgot to mention in previous posts, right after Vegeta says Goku's power is over 8000, Nappa says this:



(Chapter 224)

I think this line is an indication that Nappa's power level is around 8000, and he doesn't believe Goku is strong enough to match his own power.

I checked out a subbed version (episode 28) too, and he says "There's no way you can stand up to Nappa-Sama!" there, which's, more or less the same thing.

I think the 3500 reading could be taken as one of Piccolo’s blasts since he does burn Nappa’s back pretty badly at one point. But in hand to hand his power should be 2500 at best.

Nappa saying Goku can never beat him clearly doesn’t mean anything other than denial though. He thought the 8,000+ reading was a mistake and kept insisting on it until Vegeta told him to get his shit together.

[Lukmendes]

Also Nappa and Vegeta not knowing how to control theire Ki in the saiyan arc (this has a couple of inconstencies) isnt important since Toriyama has explained how Ki works in the SEG, and its a combination of Genki (energy), Yuki (courage), and Shoki (right mindedness). As Vegeta exclaims, Nappa needed to cool his head to win, and once he does the fight evens out. Essentially his ki control was out of whack because of his mind set. This actually fits very well with what Toriyama said, and it also allows the Nappa scene to make logical sense when compared to other showings in the manga.

Man, wish such explanations were on the manga, ki in it is not explained at all, I thought "angry Nappa" was fighting so badly compare to "calm headed Nappa" because he was doing really sloppy attacks.

I agree with this. Just because Nappa and Vegeta can’t suppress their battle powers like Krillin and company can do, it doesn’t mean they are sporting their full power all the time. Whenever they are surrounded by aura, we can note an upgrade in performance. So, in any case, their battle power numbers (4,000 and 18,000) don’t represent everything they can do.

Vegeta himself powers up when fighting Goku too, and it did change the fight since Kaioken was enough to slap Vegeta a bit (Which Vegeta quickly turned his tables on that), but then Kaiokenx2 was so outclassed Goku immediately decides he has to go to x3.

I think the 3500 reading could be taken as one of Piccolo’s blasts since he does burn Nappa’s back pretty badly at one point. But in hand to hand his power should be 2500 at best.

That would make sense.

Nappa saying Goku can never beat him clearly doesn’t mean anything other than denial though. He thought the 8,000+ reading was a mistake and kept insisting on it until Vegeta told him to get his shit together.

Obviously it's denial, what I'm wondering is if that denial is an indication of Nappa's own power, 'cause he could have instead said "There's no way you're stronger than me!", which would indicate he's in denial, while also making a comment that his power level is below Goku's, but that's not what he said, I feel that the line used is an indication that his power level is around 8000.

[Miracles]

When Goku comments on Nappa being a "tough Bastard," it's all within the context of Goku pointing out that Nappa has "gotten serious. [After calming himself]." Not only stating that Nappa wasn't hurt by Goku's kamehameha but even Nappa's mouth blast would of gotten Goku "in trouble" if he took that head on. Goku confirms that "at this rate ["same power level circumstances]" the fight would take "forever." Subsequently Goku busted out Kaioken to change the pace of the battle.

As you can see, "tough" is used for overall power here. Not just for resilience or body size. Which is the usual case in Dragonball. Showcasing that a calm Nappa, was indeed close to Goku in power.

[Koitsukai]

Goku's power was stated, Nappa's wasn't.
Nappa was getting trashed until he got his shit together (all the other things Toriyama said ki is made of), and was not getting trashed anymore. It's pretty straightforward, really, I think we could all agree on this, right?

I really don't know why it's so common to value more some guide not written by the author than what the author wrote.

Also, if Nappa at 4,000 -and after hours of fighting- can take a 16,000 blow from KK Goku, and still be conscious and able to speak, then he had more potential than Broly.

This also would mean Goku being twice as fast than Nappa is still not enough to outfly him without KK. Which makes no sense if Nappa only had endurance going on for him and his speed was never particularly celebrated like in Burta's case, for example.

[Mr Baggins]

Unless directly backed by the manga itself, I put about as much stock into the guides' battle powers as I do the little wafer cards: I don't.

They're "official" only because the suits who inferred them worked on merchandise. Those numbers might be accurate in the Toeiverse where everything goes and nothing coheres, but they aren't necessarily what the author had in mind for his work.

[picc]

Bottom line is, there are at least 3 things that happened in the Goku/Nappa fight that would be impossible if one of them was twice as powerful as the other; particularly in an era of dragonball when advantages far less pronounced than 4,000 have resulted in utter decimation of an opponent.

Trying to reverse engineer the fight so it adheres to the guidebook results in unnecessary mental gymnastics. The simplest explanation is one that solves all problems and presents no contradictions or inconsistencies vis a vis the actual manga and what's written there.

[Goku9001]

Physique in DB mostly doesn't mean anything though, it's a running gag that strong looking characters can be taken down really fast, or that between the strong looking character and the weak looking one, the strong looking character is far weaker.

That's the thing though. Nappa doesn't just look tough, Goku directly confirms it so it's not a gag.

I re-read the fight and Nappa trades blows with Goku for an impressive 1 panel (So much wow) in total. Reducing their whole fight to that panel is honestly silly. I guess SS2 Future Trunks is on par with SSR Black for managing to land a single kick in their fight or base/SS Goku was on par with SSG Vegeta because he kept up for a few seconds against Broly.

Silly.

Didn't SSJ2 Trunks force Goku Black to power up though? That's only the case when Black is battling a powerful opponent which is explicitly stated. This means that SSJ2 Trunks is a powerful opponent relative to SSJR Goku Black. The example you provided doe snot prove your case at all.

[SupremeKai25]

Physique in DB mostly doesn't mean anything though, it's a running gag that strong looking characters can be taken down really fast, or that between the strong looking character and the weak looking one, the strong looking character is far weaker.

That's the thing though. Nappa doesn't just look tough, Goku directly confirms it so it's not a gag.

I re-read the fight and Nappa trades blows with Goku for an impressive 1 panel (So much wow) in total. Reducing their whole fight to that panel is honestly silly. I guess SS2 Future Trunks is on par with SSR Black for managing to land a single kick in their fight or base/SS Goku was on par with SSG Vegeta because he kept up for a few seconds against Broly.

Silly.

Didn't SSJ2 Trunks force Goku Black to power up though? That's only the case when Black is battling a powerful opponent which is explicitly stated. This means that SSJ2 Trunks is a powerful opponent relative to SSJR Goku Black. The example you provided doe snot prove your case at all.

He was so weak compared to Base Black that he was forced to hide underground and eat disgusting cat food for 1 year, because he was that scared of coming out and facing Base Black ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Based on this fact, we can only assume that SS2 Trunks got a lucky hit on Black, but that otherwise he is complete fodder to him.

[ZombieVito]

Didn't SSJ2 Trunks force Goku Black to power up though? That's only the case when Black is battling a powerful opponent which is explicitly stated. This means that SSJ2 Trunks is a powerful opponent relative to SSJR Goku Black. The example you provided doe snot prove your case at all.

What in Kami's name are you talking about?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Looking back on the fights, Future Trunks barely even fights SSJR Black before he unlocks SSJ Fury. The only time they engage in combat they lock swords and Trunks kicks him to no effect. Goku has to run in and save Trunks.

He did survive a Kamehameha that greatly injured SSJB Goku though.

[ZombieVito]

Looking back on the fights, Future Trunks barely even fights SSJR Black before he unlocks SSJ Fury. The only time they engage in combat they lock swords and Trunks kicks him to no effect. Goku has to run in and save Trunks.

He did survive a Kamehameha that greatly injured SSJB Goku though.

Survival feats are never consistent across all DB.

May I bring up again base kid Trunks surviving a clean punch from Super Boo to the face?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Looking back on the fights, Future Trunks barely even fights SSJR Black before he unlocks SSJ Fury. The only time they engage in combat they lock swords and Trunks kicks him to no effect. Goku has to run in and save Trunks.

He did survive a Kamehameha that greatly injured SSJB Goku though.

Survival feats are never consistent across all DB.

May I bring up again base kid Trunks surviving a clean punch from Super Boo to the face?

Or everyone's recent favourite, base/SS Goku taking on Ikari Broly for an extended period.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Looking back on the fights, Future Trunks barely even fights SSJR Black before he unlocks SSJ Fury. The only time they engage in combat they lock swords and Trunks kicks him to no effect. Goku has to run in and save Trunks.

He did survive a Kamehameha that greatly injured SSJB Goku though.

Survival feats are never consistent across all DB.

May I bring up again base kid Trunks surviving a clean punch from Super Boo to the face?

Tbh that was a joke scene. We do have Tagoma (Or was it Ginyu?) not vaporizing Roshi it the same attack he knocked Piccolo and Base Gohan down with though…

Yeah, I guess Trunks and Zamasu aren’t that impressive. Throwing arms back and forth isn’t much of a feat. Goku even blows Zamasu’s head clean off with a punch at one point. Granted Zamasu never bothers to be on guard, but that’s massive. It’s some Vegeta vs Gurdo level stuff.

I guess between SSJ3 and SSJG level would be good placements for those two, probably closer to SSJG. Goku does say Future Zamasu is leaps and bounds above his present self after all.